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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: brut458 ()
Date: February 03, 2009 04:46AM

So, I've spent the last few days reading this entire thread and am a little alarmed.

Someone I know, let's call them Z, has been enthusiastically trying to get me to attend a retreat. However, Z does not know that I am gay, and according to what I have read here, RW is strongly against homosexuality. The "more inclusive" approach that the site describes is apparently not that inclusive.

Can any RW people please explain RW's stance on homosexuality and the reasoning behind it?

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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: Fred Stevenson ()
Date: February 11, 2009 02:03PM

Michaels view of homosexuality;

Michael believes and teaches that homosexuality is a “death style not a lifestyle.”
He openly declares embarrassment that he is part of a profession that has it taken it off the list of physiological disorders. He believes the world is so concerned about being politically correct, that we’ve turn a blind eye to the disorder. He believes that a man is either a homosexual, or a pervert that will stick it into anything.

Once a private group rented the ranch, it came out that a man in the group was gay and HIV positive. When the retreat was over he had his followers put on rubber gloves and scour everything this man could have possible come in contact with. He also had a professional carpet cleaning company clean the new carpet in the group room. Very naive and condemning for a Guru!

Michael wrote a long position letter to his followers where he went down the line on his “truth” on the subject. One of his positions is that a society witch normalizes homosexuality is doomed. He also states that gays call themselves gay as an over reaction to make themselves out to be happy. This letter is actually disgusting and a very stuck position.

Michael teaches very harshly and straight, pushing his views. He uses the harshness to keep you off guard. That is how he creates in you, the need for his guidance. He also creates a pier pressure mentality as another method of control. Behind the sense, he has his closes followers do most of his dirty work. Most of witch seek his favor so deeply that they are never free to be themselves. They constantly want approval from Michael and their piers witch creates an environment that lacks self, contrary to his verbal teaching of freedom. All the potential growth of the teaching are sucked up in a vacuum of seeking favor. He fools many and possible even himself.

If you study cult manipulation, he uses very classic methods for control. Be AWARE, he is very good….scary good!


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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: brut458 ()
Date: February 23, 2009 04:22PM


Thank you Fred, that was very helpful. Before the election, I was actually very close to talking about Proposition 8 with Z. I had assumed that Z was pretty strongly liberal given that they would be involved in this type of "spiritual" group. That probably would have been a big mistake. I know now to be more careful.

Do you know any more details about the letter? Is RW interested in 'changing' people, i.e. trying to change their orientation, or Z just stop talking to me outright if I came out to them?

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Re: Royal Way website
Posted by: Nietzsche ()
Date: February 28, 2009 02:32AM

Has anyone noticed that, since the rw letter on cults appeared on WikiLeaks, the same letter is now on the new slick rw website (
I'd love to see what they do if any other letters "appear" on wikileaks.... they can't keep up the facade forever... Some one PLEASE put up one of the more damning letters... perhaps the one on homosexuality?

We need to expose these people!!!!

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Re: Royal Way website, design, search engine optimizing, Pre-Frame
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 01, 2009 02:41PM

Its incredible what Royal Way has done with their website.
Before, as evidenced in this very thread, Royal Way literally tried to block even all benign discussion of Royal Way, never mind trying to suppress all complaints or dissent. They had attempted a complete information blackout.
But that failed.

So they went and hired a web-designer to create a very slick website.
Also, its clear they recently hired a search-engine optimizer, to get the #1 Google ranking for the words Royal Way. You can see how they did that on the title page, by mimicking almost the exact word sequence from this very thread.

Watch to see if they try to get the ranking for...(Royal Way cult).
Some groups do that by burying the word "cult" in various ways on the website title page. Notice they posted the letter where Michael uses the word cult himself.
They even use the word Jacumba, but that is somewhat buried as well.

Notice below, the very very careful PRE-FRAME they do on the letter on cults from Michael that they posted on their website. They literally tell you how you should think about the letter.
They say if you are not in Royal Way, it will seem too complex, or too simplistic! :-) That is called a Double-Bind, they cover both ends.

They then use what might be called a Triple-Bind or Forced-Choice.
1) you are a dummy and don't get it.
2) you are a student of RW
3) you are a follower of Michael, and "get it".

So the only way to "get it" is to "sign up" and become a serious student of Michael. Again, creating confusion is a standard method, they don't want you to trust your own thinking.

Notice how they try to make you think that there is no such thing as a valid critic of Royal Way. You are either a dummy, or a follower. Of course, that is false. There is a 4th option, and that is to be someone who thinks for yourself, and sees exactly what Michael is doing with Royal Way.

They then move into what is called being Artfully Vague.
Basically they say...words are not words, the real meaning is invisible to mere mortals.
Then they tell you to basically self-hypnotize yourself with Michael's letters, and play, dance and "bask in them again and again and again and again".
Why did they write again 4 times? That implies dozens of readings of the same letter.
They know it takes repetition for this stuff to really sink into the mind. Repetition is used in all these groups as well.

So they use pretty transparent methods of induction. Pre-Frame, Double-Binds, Forced-Choice, creating confusion, being Artfully Vague, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, trying to reach your "deepest levels".

It would be interesting to see that letter from Michael on homosexuality, as people have a right to know what his views are in that area. Maybe it will also turn up on Wikileaks, or somewhere.
By the sounds of it though, they probably won't post that on the Royal Way website!
That sounds like some sour "divine nectar".
It makes one wonder what "divine nectar" the Royal Way person named "Paprika" who posted in this thread was drinking? Trying to cast a curse of the death of Judas on a critic...that is a pretty foul fountain of divine nectar kool-aid.

[below is a QUOTE of an excerpt, from the pre-frame, for education research and analysis]

"Before reading the letter, you should note the following:

Michael’s words can be taken in three ways. The peripheral listener and the casual reader decide that the words are either too complicated or overly simplistic. The serious student who is committed to clarity and reality sees them as fingers pointing to treasure. A lot of digging is necessary, and the efforts are well rewarded. Finally, those listening with their hearts will realize his words for what they are: expressions of the inexpressible, garments, covers — the best parts trailing behind as streams of energy and light, unseen to the naked eye, communicable only through a connection with the unknown, a connection with the divine. They will play with the words, dance with the words, bask in them again and again and again and again, till the words reach them at their deepest levels, opening their own fountains of divine nectar."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2009 02:48PM by The Anticult.

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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Date: March 02, 2009 06:06AM

I am the son, brother, and brother-in-law of Royal Way members. They are all heavily involved. I have always been concerned about my family's participation with RW, but am now alarmed after reading the information in this thread. I almost vomited I was so distraught. If I ever find out Michael did anything remotely inappropriate with my family members, I will drive up there and personally kick his teeth in.

My parents have been members for as long as I can remember. As time went by, their involvement with the organization snowballed. Eventually my parents got my siblings to join. In my youth, I felt very neglected and always second to you know who. They were going these retreats on the weekends and classes almost everyday of the week. We probably ate dinner as a complete family once a week, at most. Most of their friends are within the RW circle. In fact I know several people who mentioned and discussed in past posts. When I was 13 or so, I confronted them about it and nothing changed, they maintained that "I didn't understand what RW really was about"

There are at least 3 pictures of Michael at my parent's house, even one in the TV room. I cringe every time I look at it.

After reading this thread, I know that I have to do something to get my loved ones out of their dependence on Michael and RW. But I know I have to be strategic about it, or I might push them further away. I've contemplated giving them an ultimatum: me or RW.

Is there anyone on here that has gotten their loved one(s) out of RW or are trying to? I came on here seeking advice and in hopes of exchanging ideas with others that are in the same shoes as me.

Sorry for the long post, I had to vent a bit.

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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: Nietzsche ()
Date: March 02, 2009 01:05PM

Dear Knowledge,

Yes, my parents are also involved in RW and that is why I started reading this thread. My parents are very heavily involved, and I too am VERY worried about them...
If you'd like to, you may message me personally to discuss.

Best of luck to you.

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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 02, 2009 11:28PM

knowledge, you're up against something that may have begun long before you were born.

I was not in RW but was involved in a family lie situation that was milder, didnt involve a guru like Michael, but the stress of finding out the truth nearly made me flip my lid-and I was well into adulthood and had tons of support.

First item on the agenda--Rescue yourself. That's the Prime Directive. Your health, your sanity and your education have to come first.

So long as you live honestly, you have every right to live differently from your family.

This is especially so if you've been born to a US citizen and have decided to break family indoctrination by wanting to live as an American citizen in a participatory democracy, [rather than living as a subject in a secret-ridden hidden kingdom with some self anointed guru who needs to whiz and take a dump like anyone else.

A guru who has less accountablity than does the Queen of England or even the Pope.

Its tempting when feeling outraged and powerless, to do like they do in the movies and storm in and do a Rescue, like warrior knight riding to save the town.

But this stuff doesnt work like Hollywood.

You're up against a Family Lie that is tied in to power and money, and where lots more people besides your parents and siblings are involved in The Lie.

And I have to warn that even when Michael dies or gets too old and fragile to run RW, you can bet someone else, maybe more than one person, will be waiting in the wings to take control. There is a lot of money and power at stake. RW may at some point fracture into splinter groups.

Talk with Nietzsche. Get a community of support. Hang around with normal people who are not in icky groups like this so you can learn what its like to live without having a Secret Family Guru orchestrating matters.

You may have to be prepared to lose your entire family over this.

As an example of how powerful the hold is, there was a guru who did tell his disciples it had all been for nothing.

When PD Ouspensky faced that he had wasted his life on Fourth Way work, he convened his followers and told them there was no System, they had to find their own way.

He died soon afterwards.

And you know what? Many of the followers refused to believe their own guru, even when the guru said it had all been for nothing.

They thought it was a test of their faith!

(this is told by Gary Lachman, in his book, In Search of PD Ouspensky

There is another book by Joyce Collin Smith, entitled Call No Man Master. She followed one guru type after another yet never questioned it.

A book you MUST read, but that may be very intense is by Jeffrey Moussaief Masson, entitled My Father's Guru. The Masson family life revolved around a guru and Jeffrey was totally unable to convince his parents the man was a fake, even when the guru failed to perform a promised feat of table levitation.)

And many of them later got involved with a Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. They were so used to acting like small kids following a leader, they were recruitable by any guru who came along to scoop them up.

Its a lot like prisoners who are scared to death when theyve served their time and are about to be released---they dont know what to do outside the structure of prison life.

You may be quite a different person from your parents and sibs which is why you refused to be recruited.

You may well need to 'grow yourself' by finding friendships and relationships based on peer relations, equal exchange of power, and honest exchange of information.

Your parents and sibs may be totally unwilling to do this, and you may need to be prepared for this outcome.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2009 11:43PM by corboy.

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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: MisterAEIOU ()
Date: March 03, 2009 11:54AM

I know a number of members of Royal Way. I have been asked to join. I have never gone on a retreat. My exposure to this group is extensive as I know it from the Jacumba days. I know one person who has dropped out. I know current members who have lied, cheated, and stolen. I know current members who I believe are inherently good people.
Without losing anonymity, the experience of being "invited" or pressured to join was sort of predatory. My life was in a visible transition and I was asked repeatedly if I would like to experience a retreat, meet Michael, listen to his teachings, and partake in a growthful experience. I was given no real insight about the experience, just something about how "Michael is a great man and a great teacher."
The people that I know in the group are no better and no happier and no wealthier than when they started. They neglect and alienate their friends and families with no guilt. They commit their time so generously to Royal Way that they neglect their obligations to their families (which are completely subjective - like birthdays, holidays) and neglect their work. They have contributed thousands of dollars to Royal Way and to their teacher Michael Gottlieb. I know of a couple folks who I believe have had personal battles with their sexuality and possibly used Royal Way to simplify those issues (who wants to lead a "Deathstyle" anyway). I have noticed that members of the group date internally.
Instead of being loving and accepting individuals, the people that I know seem nice on the surface but are actually quite judgmental. They are not leading lives dictated by the "light" but clearly dictated by their Teacher.
My feelings about the teacher and what I know of him are strong. Without knowing whether he treated the people I know with Orgone treatment, Reiki, naked sessions, and sexual healing I know that I do not like him. I do not drink his Kool-Aid. I will not give him my time. I refuse to invest in this fake messiah.
I care less and less for the people that I know in this group. It is too emotionally consuming for me to be involved in the way these people carry on their lives.
I would like to stop them from going, but we live in a "Free Country" where any grey haired bearded man can say that he carries the secret to living a life of greater meaning. These people are allowed to do what they want.

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Re: Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael Gottlieb
Posted by: The Real Deal ()
Date: March 05, 2009 04:18AM

knowledge reigns supreme
After reading this thread, I know that I have to do something to get my loved ones out of their dependence on Michael and RW. But I know I have to be strategic about it, or I might push them further away. I've contemplated giving them an ultimatum: me or RW.

Is there anyone on here that has gotten their loved one(s) out of RW or are trying to? I came on here seeking advice and in hopes of exchanging ideas with others that are in the same shoes as me.

If you want to confront your family about the spell of seduction they are under with Michael, first decide if you are ready to part ways with them. It has been my personal experience that Michael is an expert at breaking up families and dear friends, inevitably he wins. Despite his claim to bringing families together - he only does this when it fits his needs. In other words, Michael will weave his magic where he might earn a bigger ($$$) donor or where he wants to break a spouse away from their family because they are a threat to RW. He has very clever tactics. I always said, Michael was playing a giant game of chess and we were the pawns. He is a "master" in manipulation.

There are many of us who have left Royal Way, it was when we saw through the manipulation and the non-freedom that we actually got the courage to leave. It takes more courage to leave then to stay in that abyss. For many of the people who are in and see through it all – they are just waiting for Michael to die. Very harsh statement but for someone as harsh as Michael, it shouldn’t come as a shock.

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