Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 07, 2006 04:37AM
Please understand that if the insults and petty name calling continue those that continue will be banned.
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
Paprika
()
Date: November 07, 2006 07:36AM
R., I know who you are. You are the source for most of the vicious accusations and allegations being made against Royal Way. You are a disgruntled ex-employee of Royal Way who was fired. You will probably claim that you quit, but the truth is you were fired for being lazy and not doing your job. Then you badmouthed Royal Way to everyone. But they all turned away from you and won’t have anything to do with you. That enraged you even more. Now you want revenge and are attempting to hurt Royal Way by spreading these despicable lies.
R., you actually think you’re hurting Royal Way, when in fact you are destroying yourself. You have committed the worst kind of betrayal. Have you ever heard of Judas? When Judas betrayed Jesus, he didn’t hurt Jesus, he created a world religion for him. But do you know what happened to Judas after his betrayal? Maybe you should find out.
R., you actually think you’re hurting Royal Way, when in fact you are destroying yourself. You have committed the worst kind of betrayal. Have you ever heard of Judas? When Judas betrayed Jesus, he didn’t hurt Jesus, he created a world religion for him. But do you know what happened to Judas after his betrayal? Maybe you should find out.
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
stop rw
()
Date: November 07, 2006 08:05AM
From the get go I predicted the spiritually enlightened attacks by RW members.
Dear Mr. RW, you dont know the facts, so your conclusion is totally false and inacurate. Furthermore, I will not dignify your weak post with a reply.
However, even the moderator agrees that you are all running around in circles, insulting and ridiculing and avoiding the real questions.
I refuse to get into a childlike battle with personal insults. I simply shared my experience with the readers.
Care to answer the real questions? Why dont you post some of Michael's writings? If it is so pure and spiritual, prove us wrong !!!!
Good luck to you and all of the RW followers. May you all get saved soon.
Dear Mr. RW, you dont know the facts, so your conclusion is totally false and inacurate. Furthermore, I will not dignify your weak post with a reply.
However, even the moderator agrees that you are all running around in circles, insulting and ridiculing and avoiding the real questions.
I refuse to get into a childlike battle with personal insults. I simply shared my experience with the readers.
Care to answer the real questions? Why dont you post some of Michael's writings? If it is so pure and spiritual, prove us wrong !!!!
Good luck to you and all of the RW followers. May you all get saved soon.
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 07, 2006 09:06AM
I am finding this all very interesting.
To be honest, I was neutral about Royal Way, until the members and officers of RW began to post in this thread, and anyone can see what they are trying to do.
But those types of distortions and personal attacks, are actually very instructive.
That is technique #1 for these types of sects, in the way they deal with criticism and dissent. Sadly, in the real world, that can work quite well. If a member or prospect for the group begins to ask any tough questions, they will immediately try to turn the tables on them. They probe for something, like maybe a divorce, or a personal issue, which then can then use as a weapon against the person, to try and beat them down.
Of course, if a person is strong minded, they won't back down, and then the conflict will escalate, until the person is leaves the group. These types of sects don't want people who ask tough questions.
They recruit people who are more accepting, compliant and trusting. Unfortunately, many people will back down when they are attacked by a sect member, and that is how they keep them in line.
You can see the first step in that process in the posts of the RW members in this thread.
Their other technique of course, is to just to do DENY everything. For instance, you can see in almost every single post from a Royal Way members, they are saying [i:6923b88d6a]"its all lies, its all lies...".[/i:6923b88d6a]
That is almost a Thought Stopping tactic, they are trying to use.
For example, people have posted all sorts of objective factual information about Royal Way, those are not lies, they are simple facts.
There is a checklist of questions to ask any religious non-profit. those are not lies, they are facts. And another fact is that Royal Way fails that test completely. See for yourself, run Royal Way through this checklist.
[www.ecfa.org]
[b:6923b88d6a]Royal Way completely fails every single criteria for an ethical and proper non-profit church or organization![/b:6923b88d6a][/color:6923b88d6a]
Their last tactic, which is what they are probably going to tell their members and followers, is the "bad apple" falsehood. They will say, "there's one or two angry people spreading lies", and try to use that as a technique of thought control.
Its obvious that there are all sorts of people criticizing Royal Way. There are people who have dated RW members, former members, and even people who have seen RW episodes in public. There are also people who are neutral, and who have simply researched the sect.
Over the next months, its probable that more Royal Way members will come forward, and tell the world what is really going on.
Also, Royal Way will tell their members that the "internet is evil and a waste of time" or some variant, to try and get their people to not research the sect on the internet.
Lastly, the RW false argument, that "its all lies" is itself dishonest.
All Royal Way has to do is produce the audited financial documents.
Then we can see if Michael Gottlieb is remunerated or not. If he is, then who is "lying" when they say he is not paid, or remunerated?
They have said there is no Royal Way office on Olympic Blvd, yet there is an office on that street of someone who claims to be a RW member or officer. Who's telling semantic fibs? They have also said Michael Gottlieb is not a therapist, yet the facts show he was a registered therapist for the last 30 years!
As well, Officers of Royal Way have come here making claims about what Michael Gottlieb teaches in his letters. Well, lets see the writings. Then again, we'll see if anyone is "lying" about their content. Those letters will leak out at some point, someone will take them down to Kinko's or a photocopy shop, and have them scanned onto a CD as a Adobe pdf file, then post them on the internet. Then everyone will see for themselves. That will probably happen at some point.
Also, lets see the fee structure, and "course outlines" for their workshops. Until we see some FACTS from the officers of Royal Way, then their words carry no weight. A senior member of a tax-exempt corporation can't go around making vague claims, with no evidence.
They have to back up their statements with hard facts, audited statements from the IRS. Otherwise, they are highly suspect, and cannot be trusted.
All in all, Royal Way, from my perspective, fails completely on all tests of a decent non-profit.
No one knows where the money is going.
No one knows who is getting paid what.
No one knows if there are conflicts of interest in insider property transfers, or not.
No one knows their assets and income and expenses.
No one knows what they are teaching.
No one knows their course structure.
No one knows their website address.
No one knows the board of directors of the corporation.
They are deliberately hiding everything they can, and they have refused to divulge any information, other than vague platitudes and personal attacks. Its the oldest trick in the book.
Also, who is next in line when Michael Gottlieb passes away? After all, he is about 78 years old, and he might be around for a decade or two. But that being said, if he did pass away at his age, who then takes over? Who are the senior board members? Who's the President, Treaurer of The Royal Way?
The bottom line is that Royal Way is a very very highly suspect non-profit tax-exempt corporation, and should be avoided at all costs, until a full investigation has taken place, and the IRS statements are released.
To be honest, I was neutral about Royal Way, until the members and officers of RW began to post in this thread, and anyone can see what they are trying to do.
But those types of distortions and personal attacks, are actually very instructive.
That is technique #1 for these types of sects, in the way they deal with criticism and dissent. Sadly, in the real world, that can work quite well. If a member or prospect for the group begins to ask any tough questions, they will immediately try to turn the tables on them. They probe for something, like maybe a divorce, or a personal issue, which then can then use as a weapon against the person, to try and beat them down.
Of course, if a person is strong minded, they won't back down, and then the conflict will escalate, until the person is leaves the group. These types of sects don't want people who ask tough questions.
They recruit people who are more accepting, compliant and trusting. Unfortunately, many people will back down when they are attacked by a sect member, and that is how they keep them in line.
You can see the first step in that process in the posts of the RW members in this thread.
Their other technique of course, is to just to do DENY everything. For instance, you can see in almost every single post from a Royal Way members, they are saying [i:6923b88d6a]"its all lies, its all lies...".[/i:6923b88d6a]
That is almost a Thought Stopping tactic, they are trying to use.
For example, people have posted all sorts of objective factual information about Royal Way, those are not lies, they are simple facts.
There is a checklist of questions to ask any religious non-profit. those are not lies, they are facts. And another fact is that Royal Way fails that test completely. See for yourself, run Royal Way through this checklist.
[www.ecfa.org]
[b:6923b88d6a]Royal Way completely fails every single criteria for an ethical and proper non-profit church or organization![/b:6923b88d6a][/color:6923b88d6a]
Their last tactic, which is what they are probably going to tell their members and followers, is the "bad apple" falsehood. They will say, "there's one or two angry people spreading lies", and try to use that as a technique of thought control.
Its obvious that there are all sorts of people criticizing Royal Way. There are people who have dated RW members, former members, and even people who have seen RW episodes in public. There are also people who are neutral, and who have simply researched the sect.
Over the next months, its probable that more Royal Way members will come forward, and tell the world what is really going on.
Also, Royal Way will tell their members that the "internet is evil and a waste of time" or some variant, to try and get their people to not research the sect on the internet.
Lastly, the RW false argument, that "its all lies" is itself dishonest.
All Royal Way has to do is produce the audited financial documents.
Then we can see if Michael Gottlieb is remunerated or not. If he is, then who is "lying" when they say he is not paid, or remunerated?
They have said there is no Royal Way office on Olympic Blvd, yet there is an office on that street of someone who claims to be a RW member or officer. Who's telling semantic fibs? They have also said Michael Gottlieb is not a therapist, yet the facts show he was a registered therapist for the last 30 years!
As well, Officers of Royal Way have come here making claims about what Michael Gottlieb teaches in his letters. Well, lets see the writings. Then again, we'll see if anyone is "lying" about their content. Those letters will leak out at some point, someone will take them down to Kinko's or a photocopy shop, and have them scanned onto a CD as a Adobe pdf file, then post them on the internet. Then everyone will see for themselves. That will probably happen at some point.
Also, lets see the fee structure, and "course outlines" for their workshops. Until we see some FACTS from the officers of Royal Way, then their words carry no weight. A senior member of a tax-exempt corporation can't go around making vague claims, with no evidence.
They have to back up their statements with hard facts, audited statements from the IRS. Otherwise, they are highly suspect, and cannot be trusted.
All in all, Royal Way, from my perspective, fails completely on all tests of a decent non-profit.
No one knows where the money is going.
No one knows who is getting paid what.
No one knows if there are conflicts of interest in insider property transfers, or not.
No one knows their assets and income and expenses.
No one knows what they are teaching.
No one knows their course structure.
No one knows their website address.
No one knows the board of directors of the corporation.
They are deliberately hiding everything they can, and they have refused to divulge any information, other than vague platitudes and personal attacks. Its the oldest trick in the book.
Also, who is next in line when Michael Gottlieb passes away? After all, he is about 78 years old, and he might be around for a decade or two. But that being said, if he did pass away at his age, who then takes over? Who are the senior board members? Who's the President, Treaurer of The Royal Way?
The bottom line is that Royal Way is a very very highly suspect non-profit tax-exempt corporation, and should be avoided at all costs, until a full investigation has taken place, and the IRS statements are released.
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 07, 2006 10:37AM
Wow, that was classic, and very disturbing.
To open, he makes an attempt at a supernatural sounding threatening pronouncement of "RM...I KNOW WHO YOU ARE". [he doesn't, that is just a technique that Gurus use against followers who look at them as a Godman. He doesn't know Jack from squat][/color:a1cec7b3dd]
Then, its the "conspiracy" theory technique. (as in, there is [b:a1cec7b3dd]one [/b:a1cec7b3dd]evil-doer out there who is out to get us, with the initials "RM"). [that is a false accusation, as the Moderator confirmed earlier in the thread that many different people were posting criticisms about Royal Way. Its NOT just one person, that has been falsified. ][/color:a1cec7b3dd]
Next, the Heretic is SHUNNED by the group, as they "turned away" from him for exercising his critical thinking faculties. Social Exclusion. Classic.
Then, the malignant narcissism and Grandiosity of comparing Royal Way and Michael to Jesus Christ.
Last, a clear attempt at "supernatural curses" of eternal Damnation of their Soul, and perhaps a veiled threat regarding the Death of Judas. (in the biblical stories, Judas either committed suicide by hanging, or his body burst open in a field and his intestines spilled out, depending on which contradicting bible story you read)
[www.rationalchristianity.net]
So its clear to me that whoever wrote that post, is attempting a type of superstitious curse or threat against whoever it is they think is "betraying" him.
These types of groups can be so destructive to vulnerable people, it really is not amusing. They can turn extremely ugly, and dangerous, as we have all seen.
And speaking of "I know who you are", it seems pretty darn clear who may have made that post.
[b:a1cec7b3dd]Tanquam ex ungue leonem[/b:a1cec7b3dd]. (as the lion is known by its claw).[/color:a1cec7b3dd]
MG.
To open, he makes an attempt at a supernatural sounding threatening pronouncement of "RM...I KNOW WHO YOU ARE". [he doesn't, that is just a technique that Gurus use against followers who look at them as a Godman. He doesn't know Jack from squat][/color:a1cec7b3dd]
Then, its the "conspiracy" theory technique. (as in, there is [b:a1cec7b3dd]one [/b:a1cec7b3dd]evil-doer out there who is out to get us, with the initials "RM"). [that is a false accusation, as the Moderator confirmed earlier in the thread that many different people were posting criticisms about Royal Way. Its NOT just one person, that has been falsified. ][/color:a1cec7b3dd]
Next, the Heretic is SHUNNED by the group, as they "turned away" from him for exercising his critical thinking faculties. Social Exclusion. Classic.
Then, the malignant narcissism and Grandiosity of comparing Royal Way and Michael to Jesus Christ.
Last, a clear attempt at "supernatural curses" of eternal Damnation of their Soul, and perhaps a veiled threat regarding the Death of Judas. (in the biblical stories, Judas either committed suicide by hanging, or his body burst open in a field and his intestines spilled out, depending on which contradicting bible story you read)
[www.rationalchristianity.net]
So its clear to me that whoever wrote that post, is attempting a type of superstitious curse or threat against whoever it is they think is "betraying" him.
These types of groups can be so destructive to vulnerable people, it really is not amusing. They can turn extremely ugly, and dangerous, as we have all seen.
And speaking of "I know who you are", it seems pretty darn clear who may have made that post.
[b:a1cec7b3dd]Tanquam ex ungue leonem[/b:a1cec7b3dd]. (as the lion is known by its claw).[/color:a1cec7b3dd]
MG.
Quote
Paprika
R., I know who you are. You are the source for most of the vicious accusations and allegations being made against Royal Way. You are a disgruntled ex-employee of Royal Way who was fired. You will probably claim that you quit, but the truth is you were fired for being lazy and not doing your job. Then you badmouthed Royal Way to everyone. But they all turned away from you and won’t have anything to do with you. That enraged you even more. Now you want revenge and are attempting to hurt Royal Way by spreading these despicable lies.
R., you actually think you’re hurting Royal Way, when in fact you are destroying yourself. You have committed the worst kind of betrayal. Have you ever heard of Judas? When Judas betrayed Jesus, he didn’t hurt Jesus, he created a world religion for him. But do you know what happened to Judas after his betrayal? Maybe you should find out.
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
JustChecking1234
()
Date: November 07, 2006 11:40AM
Quote
But do you know what happened to Judas after his betrayal? Maybe you should find out.
Quote
You sure are getting more and more rattled by my postings. I am getting concerned about you and that stroke.
These posts by "RW Member" and "Paprika" are very threatening, especially when you keep in mind the information from "Stop RW" that his girlfriend became "violent and mad" when he asked what would happen to RW when Michael dies.
There is no way to predict anyone's future behavior, just as there is no way to be sure that RW supporters/members would refrain from violent or criminal acts if they felt threatened enough. What we can see for sure (from their own postings) is that they are vehement supporters of RW and Michael, but I am disturbed that their posts of support are riddled with allusions to Judas' death and references to other forum members suffering strokes. This is getting scary, folks.
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
sdcfish
()
Date: November 07, 2006 02:52PM
Paprika,
Seems to me like there's a whole bunch of people speaking truths about Royal Way.
I merely was asking questions about it because of my friend who had been lost there and now thankfully back with us.
This has been a true awakening of the real meanings and workings of this Cult/Church/Religion etc.
I only hope that my posts and those of so many others have reached at least one person that might have considered devoting time and money to this group.
If one person was reached, then everyone here is to be thanked.
All the negative attacks and members who say we are all lying are just brainwashed in believing all this RW stuff.....and I can understand the deep mental anguish those members have and could have by facing these truths.
So how does one re-train themself? How does one re-program all these deep beliefs? I can only imagine how tough it must be for a member to realize how fooled or mislead they have allowed themselves to be.
I thank those others who have shared their experiences.....I am glad my experience and friends story is shared by so many previous members.
Best regards
Eric
Seems to me like there's a whole bunch of people speaking truths about Royal Way.
I merely was asking questions about it because of my friend who had been lost there and now thankfully back with us.
This has been a true awakening of the real meanings and workings of this Cult/Church/Religion etc.
I only hope that my posts and those of so many others have reached at least one person that might have considered devoting time and money to this group.
If one person was reached, then everyone here is to be thanked.
All the negative attacks and members who say we are all lying are just brainwashed in believing all this RW stuff.....and I can understand the deep mental anguish those members have and could have by facing these truths.
So how does one re-train themself? How does one re-program all these deep beliefs? I can only imagine how tough it must be for a member to realize how fooled or mislead they have allowed themselves to be.
I thank those others who have shared their experiences.....I am glad my experience and friends story is shared by so many previous members.
Best regards
Eric
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 07, 2006 08:17PM
JustChecking1234:
Are you encouraging people to be frightened of RW and stop posting here?
The threats sound empty.
And the lawyers in RW know the law.
No one has been directly threatened and the "only thing to fear is fear itself."
Are you encouraging people to be frightened of RW and stop posting here?
The threats sound empty.
And the lawyers in RW know the law.
No one has been directly threatened and the "only thing to fear is fear itself."
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
Freedom
()
Date: November 08, 2006 03:00AM
I am a ex-Royal Way member that remained somewhat neutral up until this posting by Paprika.
Clearly, these are Michael's [i:ce4d2beae0]exact [/i:ce4d2beae0]words to RM and Paprika is Michael's messenger. I can now say I have completely lost all respect for Michael and can see the manipulations that I was not willing to see while I was in. What are these threats to R, the consequences of betrayal? Do they apply to the teacher for his betrayal? Or is that yet another contradiction? How is choosing to leave Royal Way (because things didn’t feel right anymore) a betrayal?
So here is what I am seeing in most of the RW postings. They all cover or skew the story, telling half truths. For example; Paprika"s Quote "You are a disgruntled ex-employee of Royal Way who was fired". How about the bigger half- that he was a 10 year devoted member who chose to move to the ranch and run it for his growth. I suppose the token salary makes him an employee as well. So what happened? Since when does questioning a teacher bring hail and brimstone? There are so many other posting that need clearing up, but that might be for another time.
Really this whole thing brings me sadness to see what has unfolded on this site. In the years that I was in Royal Way I only made positive changes in the first year. The rest was just layers of going through the motions, denying what felt wrong to me and constantly hearing criticism. Feeling that I was flawed for not wanting to stay anymore and that my life would be shallow and empty if I was to leave. So it took some courage to leave. I am sure that I will be referred to by RW members as living in darkness because Michael's light was just to strong for me - so I had to leave. It is completely not the case, I am happy, being real and mostly I feel free!
I now see that sometimes it is necessary to step away from something to see it clearly or a least from another perspective. May freedom ring
Quote
R., I know who you are. You are the source for most of the vicious accusations and allegations being made against Royal Way. You are a disgruntled ex-employee of Royal Way who was fired. You will probably claim that you quit, but the truth is you were fired for being lazy and not doing your job. Then you badmouthed Royal Way to everyone. But they all turned away from you and won’t have anything to do with you. That enraged you even more. Now you want revenge and are attempting to hurt Royal Way by spreading these despicable lies.
R., you actually think you’re hurting Royal Way, when in fact you are destroying yourself. You have committed the worst kind of betrayal. Have you ever heard of Judas? When Judas betrayed Jesus, he didn’t hurt Jesus, he created a world religion for him. But do you know what happened to Judas after his betrayal? Maybe you should find out.
Clearly, these are Michael's [i:ce4d2beae0]exact [/i:ce4d2beae0]words to RM and Paprika is Michael's messenger. I can now say I have completely lost all respect for Michael and can see the manipulations that I was not willing to see while I was in. What are these threats to R, the consequences of betrayal? Do they apply to the teacher for his betrayal? Or is that yet another contradiction? How is choosing to leave Royal Way (because things didn’t feel right anymore) a betrayal?
So here is what I am seeing in most of the RW postings. They all cover or skew the story, telling half truths. For example; Paprika"s Quote "You are a disgruntled ex-employee of Royal Way who was fired". How about the bigger half- that he was a 10 year devoted member who chose to move to the ranch and run it for his growth. I suppose the token salary makes him an employee as well. So what happened? Since when does questioning a teacher bring hail and brimstone? There are so many other posting that need clearing up, but that might be for another time.
Really this whole thing brings me sadness to see what has unfolded on this site. In the years that I was in Royal Way I only made positive changes in the first year. The rest was just layers of going through the motions, denying what felt wrong to me and constantly hearing criticism. Feeling that I was flawed for not wanting to stay anymore and that my life would be shallow and empty if I was to leave. So it took some courage to leave. I am sure that I will be referred to by RW members as living in darkness because Michael's light was just to strong for me - so I had to leave. It is completely not the case, I am happy, being real and mostly I feel free!
I now see that sometimes it is necessary to step away from something to see it clearly or a least from another perspective. May freedom ring
Royal Way/Jacumba/Ranch/Michael - Need Info
Posted by:
ajinajan
()
Date: November 08, 2006 03:06AM
Well, I for one am not scared, this is actually all very funny!Quote
These posts by "RW Member" and "Paprika" are very threatening, especially when you keep in mind the information from "Stop RW" that his girlfriend became "violent and mad" when he asked what would happen to RW when Michael dies.
There is no way to predict anyone's future behavior, just as there is no way to be sure that RW supporters/members would refrain from violent or criminal acts if they felt threatened enough. What we can see for sure (from their own postings) is that they are vehement supporters of RW and Michael, but I am disturbed that their posts of support are riddled with allusions to Judas' death and references to other forum members suffering strokes. This is getting scary, folks.
Remember, Landmark Education tried to scare people on this board with a frivolous lawsuit that was withdrawn with prejudice, embarrasing themselves!
[www.culteducation.com]
Now they're trying again to intimidate people on the internet with frivolous subpoenas, and again, it looks like they are failing miserably:
[www.eff.org]
Just ignore these kinds of posts and keep on digging up financial data and testimonials, and if you wish to do so, report the group to the IRS with all of these documents in hand, and/or other relevant authorities such as the BBB - Better Business Bureau.
The best way to defeat their veiled empty threats is to ignore them.
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