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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: newfuture ()
Date: April 06, 2013 06:26AM

@corboy - Yes I'm well aware of what it does since I existed in a severe and worsening sense of confusion and disorientation for about 2 years while involved in landmark. It got worse when doing the "leadership" program which they call the Introduction Leaders Program (ILP). There is a distinct link between language and thought - scrambling language in the way that landmark does can only induce confused thinking.

*All* of landmark's 'distinctions' violate rules of grammar/language and create confusion - this is partly what has people going back to it. They need to keep going back to try and make sense of what they have been taught, which of course they never do - because it doesn't make sense. They merely end up becoming sucked deeper into the "rabbit hole" (as one forum leader, Larry Pearson, openly calls it).

There is little of landmark that makes any sense once you start trying to apply any logic to it. Listen to the initial proposition of landmark "“You can have any result for yourself or your life that you invent as a possibility and enroll others in your having gotten” - this is nonsensical. It's very poor English and makes zero sense. All one can do with that is try and find some other way of understanding it.

I've come to believe that werner erhard - and similarly anyone in landmark at the highest levels - had some kind of brain/mental disorder, one which causes what is known as word salad which is where someone strings together words which are, in their essence, incomprehensible and unintelligible. Wikipedia describes this as follows: "Word salad may describe a symptom of mental conditions in which a person attempts to communicate an idea, but words and phrases that may appear to be random and unrelated come out in an incoherent sequence instead. Often, the person is unaware that he or she did not make sense. It appears in people with dementia and schizophrenia,[2] as well as after anoxic brain injury."

By following landmark doctrine, one similarly becomes demented in this way (even if temporarily) because the language is such that is/would be used by someone who has some kind of brain injury.

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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: ellenaaa ()
Date: April 09, 2013 01:39AM

...A more likely explanation is that he was and is an uneducated man who made every attempt to mimic what he thought sounded knowlegable and erudite. He also included large doses of the scientology mish-mash language he learnt "studying" it.

No question, an extended involvement in Landmark can cause a type of brain damage, or derangement, if you like. The words you use to sort things out in your own mind directly influence how you interpret those events and how you feel about them. That being said, Werner Erhard knew well the power of words, even though he couldn't find a way to educate himself about them. His is a silly and immature manipulation of the language and, I suspect, the first thing that tips many people off to the bizarro-world nature of his riduculous ~work.~


(For purposes of definition, I place insider cult jargon words in tildes.)

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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: mermaidOZ ()
Date: April 24, 2013 07:58AM

I am new to this forum, however spent time over the past few days reviewing many threads.

Quick background. My partner and I of several years have had a great relationship. Recently, we started experiencing some relationship problems, nothing unsurmountable, and we were both taking appropriate steps (counselling etc) to resolve these.

Several weeks ago, he was introduced to Landmark Education, right when we just started to get things in the right direction - almost to the day. I had never heard of it and at first was impressed that he was taking some type of seminar to help him and help us. He went on the basis of working on our relationship to address some of the personal issues he was faced with that effected our relationship.

I was invited by him to attend - but had other comittments.

During that first weekend, I received a few calls. Once was private (touching base) and the other was a scripted type of insincere call though the course. I cant recall the exact reason for the call. He did say he way trying to call his parents as well - and had mentioned he discovered a lot of his problems were based on past problems with parents.

I went the the follow-up Tuesday evening guest event (I felt blackmailed into doing so). I purposefully did not leave any contact details at registration as alarm bells were ringing when on arrival prior to the seminar, things appeared odd - which I wont go into now. THe event was a sales pitch, I was convinced there was a stooge on-stage recounting his breakthoughts, and I did not sign up when prompted to do so. The leader approached me directly and I outlined several flaws with his logic, to which I recieved some terse and dismissive relplies. Needless to say, I did not succumb to the pressure to sign up

Long story short in the 6 weeks since Landmark our relationship is almost non-existent. He has just completed the Advanced Forum. He has spent a weekend "volunteering", has gone to several evenings (no idea what for) and I know spent a day telemarketing for them.

His language has changed. I am accused of being "defensive" when I really am not and lots of other things. Words are skewed to have different meanings, so I struggle to follow his discussions/arguments and am told to listen and try to understand before replying. The is a very obvious level of self rightousness and arrogance in his communication. He now walks out on me or hangs up on me if I dont "listen" if I interupt him or question Landmark. I can see nothing no love towards me, just emply meaningless words, and no action to want our relationship to work. Any rare catch up seems fake. He is always tired. It now seems to have formed these amazing bonds with other participants.

I have no idea how after several good years toghether, when it takes a very long time to learn to know and grow with a person, that any individual can throw this away for a ideaology that appears very flawed once you scrath the surface and can have these intimate bonds with people that were complete strangers 6 weeks ago.

I know his job is suffering (how could it not when 40 hours + a week is dedicated to courses/volunteering/homework)

I am devestated by this turn of events. I am seriously questioning my sanity in all of this. Given we have a mutal friend who as it turns out has been involved in Landmark, who is someone that I have always liked and seems well rounded (and I have never heard of Landmark via him so he never tried to register me over the last few years) I am even more confused. He has been supporting my partner on the side through this. He appears to be well adjusted, has a great job, girlfriends, social circle - and doesnt seem to be affected by Landmark.

My partner has left me last week (it seemed a bit scripted) and I tried to see him and reason with him through love. We've hung on - without really seeing each other because of the Advance course - and I have now been left again via text. At this point I am inclined to let go of him.

I have accepted the turn of events, amd extremely resentful that an organisation can manipulate people this way for their own goals.

What I would want to know if anybody has specific information, what exactly occurs in the Advanced course. Is it smaller than the Forum and more initmate? Do they still share personal issues in depth? I am trying to rationalise if this has been the catalyst for crashing our relationship.

Thanks in advance


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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: newfuture ()
Date: April 26, 2013 02:53AM

@mermaidOZ - very sorry to hear about what you've been going through. Unfortunately it's common.

Don't blame yourself. It's not you. Your boyfriend has just been through a very intense course of what is effectively brainwashing, whereby he has come to accept ideas and tenets that are not his own, that are not even real, but are presented as if they are fact and as truth. In essence, it sounds like he has been indoctrinated into landmark world.

It is surprising how fast this can happen, but landmark has had decades to perfect this dark art of theirs and know how to do it well.

The weekend involves sensory deprivation (no windows, you cannot see passage of time, short breaks and not much time for eating), distortion of normal sleep patterns (due to very long hours, and homework given overnight), sensory overload (lots and lots of information given in very short time which is hard to process), a rigid authoritarian leader who goes from put-downs to praise and eventually manages to get the participants to empathize with his/her abusive behaviour and whose aim is solely to get everyone in the room to believe that she/he is right and they are wrong) plus peer pressure from a large group, public humiliation, confession of very intimate information that one would never usually discuss with strangers and a whole host of psychological pressures and manipulative techniques including covert hypnosis and covert guided meditation.

I'm sure you can imagine what this does to the brain and what stress this puts the average person's mind under. Werner Erhard, the creator of this mess, said that his aim was to blow the mind - literally. By causing a mental collapse (either full or partial) landmark is able to then insert its own thought patterns into someone else's head and by continually repeating ideas over and over again, as well as the covert hypnosis, people come to accept these things. Also bear in mind that if someone goes there on the recommendation of a trusted friend, they are more willing to accept what they are being told (this is also why landmark uses word of mouth rather than advertising).

The forum aims to strip people of their self concept and to replace it with a landmark personality. landmark tells people that they are inauthentic, jerks, machines, racket-meaning-making-machines, that they add meaning to everything, that they are 'incomplete' (note the jargon here, btw), that they have no future, that there is no hope and that they have created an 'identity' which is based on failure from their past.

People are then encouraged to create a 'new realm of possibility' -i.e. another personality (although many at the time do not realize this is what is being demanded of them). Everyone is led to believe that everything that is happening in their lives now is to do with some failure or 'incompletion' or concocted 'story' from their past. They lead people through a series of what they call 'distinctions' to show people how flawed and corrupted they are. Unfortunately many people believe that this is some form of enlightenment. Their basic premise is that everyone is f-d up and landmark is their saviour - they need everyone to believe this too. This is how they make money and gain power over people.

The Advanced Course takes it to another level. The aim of that is to make you see yourself not as an individual but as a group. Essentially, the forum breaks you down as an individual and the advanced course re-constitutes a person as nothing more than one random element of a group.

I personally found the advanced course to be the most destructive. It was highly confusing and is just a nicely packaged way of leading people into a collectivist/communistic ideology whereby nobody is themselves, but just part of one great big whole, with no personality, no self, no differences.... just Landmark tells you you are and this 'new realm of possibility ' that you 'invent' with their influence.

Yes the adv course is smaller. Not necessarily more intimate, but more intense. They really try to break you down here.

I don't know if this helps.. It's very deep.. and very destructive. I can't tell you what's best for you now - I hope your boyfriend is able to get himself out of that hole. If you love him that much, try and stick it out.. but I'm warning you that it may not be possible. He will have to wake himself up from it.

All the very best with it!!

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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: mermaidOZ ()
Date: April 26, 2013 07:23AM

Thank you newfuture.

I really appreciate your response as it helpful in putting things into perspective for me.

My observations are that after the Forum, my partner has an instense euphoria and sense of being "right" and "invincible" - at the expense of everyone around him.

After the Advance course, he seems to be flat, exhausted (physically and emotionally) and confused. His interactions and feelings/actions towards me are not consistent and I think thats apparent in other aspects of his life as well.

Taking into account your comments, I am giving him a wide bearth, and am hoping that he will drop out of Landmark. Having said that, I think the indoctination so far has scarred his mind, which might prove too hard to cope with. It was mentioned in passing that a few of the participants in the first Forum that he was friendly with have drifted away (lucky for them!) Maybe he will too - but from conversations, I doubt it.

To me, this organisation is sinister and I suspect prey on the insecurities and misfortunes of others. Talk about a wolf in sheeps clothing! I know most people are drawn to a sense of community and belonging, and from what I see, Landmark manufactures that quickly and the only way to maintain that community feeling is to destroy peoples individuality and sense of reality for their monetary gain.

I hope that anyone considering Landmark reviews this web site and join a social club of some sort - that doesn't ask for money, gives you a sense of belonging, real friendships and normal human interaction.

Thank you for letting me vent and express my views, and for the support.


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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: newfuture ()
Date: April 30, 2013 03:29AM

MO -

You're welcome. This is what this site is here for.

What you've seen is consistent with participation in one of these programs - the euphoria, invincibility, the lows, the confusion etc. It's bi-polar in nature.

Your partner may indeed drop out. It may help that he has you - his external social ties may make it harder for him to give himself over completely to them. Sometimes people drop out when they get to other courses like the 10 seminar program or the so-called self expression and leadership course (the next one on from the advanced course) as those tend to not be so intense and can be jarring as there's such heavy emphasis on bringing people.

I would disagree with you though that it's just about playing on people's insecurities and misfortunes. There are people who do landmark because they have very serious goals that their friend/coworker or whoever recommended it to them has told them that landmark will help them to achieve. In fact, from my experience behind the scenes at landmark I would say that many people go in it to achieve particular goals. The problem is that landmark operates on a bait and switch basis - that is, they lure you in thinking you're going to do one thing and when you get in there they take it in their own direction.

I only did landmark and stayed in it because of my desire to achieve my goals and because the people who recommended it to me had claimed landmark had helped them achieve their own goals. I quit as soon as it became apparent to me that landmark had zero interest in my goals and was instead leading me off in some other (negative and evil) direction. I certainly was never in it for any sense of community/belonging. There are people who definitely are in it for that, but not all. I say this just as it may be incorrect to believe that that's what your partner is looking for.

Is there something your partner wants to achieve or accomplish that landmark may be tapping into? If you can identify this, this may help as you could ask him if those goals are being achieved and to help him reflect on that. In my case, I was able to break free of the landmark spell after just one conversation with someone else where I was able to express my doubts and concerns about the place and that person also expressed doubts. As soon as I heard those words coming out of my mouth and was with someone else who also acknowledged those concerns (a landmark person will also make anyone questioning believe that any doubts they have are their own fault and can make you believe that you're crazy which can also keep someone stuck in their grip), it was all over for me. My sense of reality was not crazy after all.

Your partners sense of reality has been subject to an intense attack. Even if he is acting like he's invincible at some level he is questioning what's real and what's not. He will require a further dose of landmark if he's to keep that feeling of invincibility up, but if you could have some open ended conversations with him where you can ask him some questions in a non threatening way (e.g. 'what is it like?' "how has it helped you?', 'would you do it again?' 'why'? etc) it may help jump start his own mental process again. That's just suggestion though.

I wish you the best - and him. You are wise to have come here first.

I hope you get your partner back.

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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 30, 2013 06:46AM

He may be urged to volunteer, that is, donate unpaid labor.

Dear Rick, no need for personal reply if busy.

Am sending in case it would be good for the archives.

This is from a US Dept of Labor an investigation of Landmark in Colorado in the 1990s

LEC is a for profit company. Dont just go by quoted excerpts. Click and read the links and make copies -- stuff disappears from the internet.

Our human brains are hard wired to equate bliss with love.

Sad truth is anyone who knows the technique on how to diddle human being's neurology can generate bliss. The stuff sold in white baggies by dope dealers brings bliss. But it doesnt proves the dope dealer loves you.


RE: FSLA complaint regarding the use of evolunteersf by Landmark Education, a for-profit company

Dear Ms. Gather:

Landmark Education Corporation is privately held, for-profit corporation that sells new-age, eself-helpf courses. In investigating Landmark Education and speaking with labor attorneys, Action Works has found that Landmark Educationfs use of unpaid workers, that it calls evolunteersf, appears to be in violation of the Federal Labor Standards Act (FSLA). With headquarters in San Francisco, Landmark has offices in 24 states, including Colorado. A company bulletin board boasted 9,000 evolunteers last May.

The specifics that relate to the FSLA include:

Landmark Education is estimated to have sales of $30-$40 million based on information for previous years provided to Dunn and Bradstreet.

The duties performed by these unpaid workers or evolunteersf include office, clerical, telephone work, enrolling people into courses and assisting with courses for the benefit of Landmark Education.

eVolunteersf are required to sign agreements committing to amount of time to be worked, a copy of which is enclosed.

There is no compensation for enrolling others into courses but, according to a former participant in the organization, some evolunteersf are given paid positions on staff and/or the opportunity to lead courses based on the number of people they enroll. Documents obtained by Action Works include forms that track enrollment by evolunteersf.

That the use of the unpaid workers is intentional is evidenced by Landmarkfs brochure on evolunteeringf, a copy of which is enclosed.

eVolunteersf of Landmark Education do not fall under Executive, Administrative or Professional exemptions from the FLSA due to, among other things, being paid less than $155 per week. They are not paid. They also cannot be construed to be Apprentices, Trainees or Independent Contractors.

A local labor attorney has offered to represent a class action on contingency. But Landmark Education has sensitive and personal information on many, if not all, of the evolunteersf. Action Works believes this places any evolunteerf that would bring a class action suit at risk. We must therefore ask that, at a minimum, the Labor Department determine the legality of what we believe to be the unethical exploitation of unpaid workers by a for-profit company.


From Wikisource
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U.S. Department of Labor investigation of Landmark Education in Denver, Colorado (1996)

Department of Labor of the United States investigation into Landmark Education's labor practices. 1994-1996. Denver, Colorado, U.S. Department of Labor, Landmark Education investigation file, 1995-631-00183. May 3, 1996.


United States Department of Labor U.S. Department of Labor investigation of Landmark Education in San Francisco, California (2004)¨

(!! 2004 - thats the year LEC was trolling the message board and launched its lawsuit against RI and the message board users.)


Landmark Education LLC
DBA: Landmark Education

client will agree to pay when his client finishing review of Investigator [FOIA EX.7] back wages computation no later than 12/07/2004, and his client would have no problem signing the WH-56. Mr. Tollen further stated that either he or his client would contact Investigator [FOIA EX. 7] on or before 12/07/2004 for an official answer when to pay.

On December 7, 2004, Mr. Timothy Cahal contacted Investigator via telephone and stated that his firm agreed to pay 45 employees a total of $187,569.01 in overtime back wages by December 23, 2004. On the same day, an original signed copy of Form WH-56 was received at the San Francisco District Office.

There is no evidence for willful violation. The firm has no prior history of FLSA violation. The firm did not know the overtime pay method was incorrect. Therefore, no civil money penalty is computed.

Publication to ER: Part 778, 541, and FLSA poster

Complainant's name: [FOIA EXEMPTION 7.]

On December 8, 2004, the complainant was contacted via phone and she was advised that there is no back wages due to her. However, the firm did have overtime violation on those non exempt hourly employees, and the firm agreed to pay those who are subjected to overtime back wages.


Since Mr. Timothy Cahal ATCF with all the provisions of the FLSA and agreed to pay 45 employees a total of $187,569.01 in OT BWs, I recommend the case be closed administratively as soon as all the proof of payment is received. No FLSA civil money penalties is computed because there is no evidence of willful violation of Section 7 and the firm has no prior violation documented. Therefore, a civil money penalty is not warranted.

[FOIA EXEMPTION 7.] Investigator Date: December 8, 2004

20041202 Landmark Education
353 Sacramento Street, Suite 200 San Francisco, CA 94111

Page 5 of 5

More labor investigations of Landmark in Dallas,



The employer could not conduct the seminars at the level it has been doing without the enormous amount of assistants (20-40) per seminar. The assistants perform primary functions of the employer such as finance conversations with potential attendees, purchasing, and facility management.

A heavy emphasis is put on volunteering at the initial Landmark Forum attended by newcomers. Attendees are influenced to assist (volunteer) at the classes and told they can gain more knowledge without paying any money to attend seminars that they volunteer at
[Exemption 5 to Freedom of Information Act: Internal forms and memoranda]

By volunteering at these seminars and in the business office the assistants are convinced that they are acquiring skills and knowledge required to improve their social and mental skills that they can use in their full-time employment and personal lives. The assistants displace regular employees that would have to be hired. The employer could not operate with the 2-3 full-time employees per site.

Section 7: An overtime violation resulting from the firm not paying the additional half time to non-exempt salaried employees [Exemption 5 to Freedom of Information Act: Internal forms and memoranda]

The firm did agree to comply and pay backwages throughout the United


States via the MODOfs investigation [Exemption 5 to Freedom of Information Act: Internal forms and memoranda]

but did not include the non-exempt salaried employee in Dallas. The firm has agreed to pay the backwages to the Dallas employee, but will not comply with the overtime violation found for the assistants.

Section 11: A recordkeeping violation resulted from the firm not keeping a record of hours for non-exempt salaried employees, and for assistants that are actually employees
A local labor attorney has offered to represent a class action on contingency. But Landmark Education has sensitive and personal information on many, if not all, of the evolunteersf. Action Works believes this places any evolunteerf that would bring a class action suit at risk. We must therefore ask that, at a minimum, the Labor Department determine the legality of what we believe to be the unethical exploitation of unpaid workers by a for-profit company.

This is a US Dept of Labor investigation of LEC in California

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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: mermaidOZ ()
Date: May 01, 2013 07:20AM

Thank you Newfuture

I appreciate your thoughts. Thinking about what you wrote, I think that you are right, my partner did go in with several goals both personal and work related. I believe that 99.9% people are pretty decent folk and always want to improve themselves professionally or spiritually in some other way. Upon reflection, it seems from the few people involved that I have been exposed to they either went in with goals in mind or because of pressure from friends. The observation that I made regarding a sense of "community" was more that this was an end result of the process to keep participants involved rather than an initial goal of participants getting involved in the first place. With Landmark creating strong bonds between participants, which seemed to result in a sense of belonging to the group - thus making Landmark involvements easier to defend and justify.

To me it seems similar to when you meet someone that works for Coca Cola or Pepsi (example only - I dont know anyone that works for either brand and I enjoy both!). Coca Cola employees dont drink pepsi and vice versa. They will use their own internal marketing and lingo in order to keep their staff - jsut like the company I work for does. A great deal of employees eventually feel loyalty to the company and a sense of community within that - even though they joined for a job (money) or career advancement etc. I guess Landmark seems to use similar tactics. Reading what Corboy posted, raises interesting issues about Landmark as a company aspect - when it comes to remuneration and donating unpaid labour!

Maybe Landmark doesnt prey on the misfortunes of their participants to get them further involved, but at the guest evening I attended, they were certianly atempting to make participants think about what's going wrong in their lives so THEY could fix it. I still remember the Leader (not sure what tittle he was assigned) berrating a lady because of her weight. I could not believe 100 people in the room didnt think there was a problem with that. I said something to my partner who said - she's cool with it! This lady's misfortune was her weight, and this leader used this aspect of her lack of confidence to reel her in. I dont know how they did it - but she was signing up for the Advnaced course.

My personal experiecne with Lanmark is extremely limited, and I dont pretned to know the intricacies at all - only that what I have seen is not good . The effect on my partner has not been good - and goals certainly not met. NF, I really value your advice about using some open ended questions and am going to see if that does help. We are still communicating, and he hasnt been in courses etc forover a week and even that week away has made him easier to speak to. I think that he is also starting to see socially some non-landmark friends.

I'm really hopeful and thank you again for your support.


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W Erhard was very well educated in grammar & rhetoric
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 10, 2014 07:47AM

Two discussants above speculated about Werner Erhaard and
the confusing jargon of Est, Forum and Landmark.

Posted by Posted by: newfuture Date: April 05, 2013 02:26PM

I've come to believe that werner erhard - and similarly anyone in landmark at the highest levels - had some kind of brain/mental disorder, one which causes what is known as word salad which is where someone strings together words which are, in their essence, incomprehensible and unintelligible...

Posted by: ellenaaa ()
Date: April 08, 2013 09:39AM

...A more likely explanation is that he was and is an uneducated man who made every attempt to mimic what he thought sounded knowlegable and erudite. He also included large doses of the scientology mish-mash language he learnt "studying" it.

Corboy: None of the above. Erhard knew what he was doing.

Erhard worked hard to master the deep structure of language and communication.
His library reveals this.

Here are excerpts from a description given by a woman who
reports to have been custodian of Werner Erhard's
library at Franklin House, San Francisco, in the 1970s.


(Quote)“These are so precious to Werner” he said in a kindly voice. “Please preserve them in the library.”

“Certainly” I said and suggested a Princeton pamphlet file.

"The gracious gentleman left and agreed to procure Princeton files.

“When I read the printed material he gave me, I was stunned: it contained simple Dale Carnegie techniques. To me such pop culture was hardly worth the paper. But when I realized how much these superficial tips fit Werner’s actual behavior, I had to admit these tools were a clear contrivance of his and his trainers. I felt disheartened and disappointed.

(Corboy note: do not ignore Carnegie's material as inferior and not worth your time. It is potent stuff and can wreck havoc in the wrong hands)

Charles Manson read Dale Carnegie while in prison. Using both Carnegie's material and Scientology, Charles Manson learned to manipulate people.



“One day Landon (the faithful valet — note first paragraph - Corboy) gave me permission to locate and catalogue books on the second and third floors. I was curious to see what books might be in the upper, even more private levels of this house.

“When I reached the attic room that was Werner’s personal office, I became uneasy. Just entering such a sacrosanct place by myself was unnerving. It was all white: the shag carpet, the painted walls and attic beams, the furniture. The highest turret windows were hung with white curtains. On shelves in that room were videotapes of Werner’s public speeches for his viewing and refining---narcissistic enough. But it was the collection of specialized dictionaries that caught my attention. In a white bookcase on a sidewall were dictionaries of all types: military, medical, law, rhetoric, science, philosophy, psychology, shelves of them.

“Werner’s fixation with the exact meaning of words and the precise delivery of his own speeches showed me the mechanics of a mastermind. I saw the emperor revealed, and he had no clothes.

Werner Erhard was a fabricated illusion."

“Quoted excerpts from Getting It” by Kate Farrell pp 233-238


Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 08:02AM by corboy.

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Re: Husband is attending Landmark Forum
Posted by: jill w ()
Date: December 06, 2014 09:32PM

Is this similar to ACCD, Breakthrough training? The techniques and training sound familiar with a twist.

These 4 day emotional seminars are nothing more than 4 days of me me me.

Does anyone else have info on classes in So Cal?

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