I have been doing pretty well in changing my approach with my husband and it seems to be helping. But I'm on the verge of losing it now.

I have a real hard time dealing with the arrogance. For example, If I tell him that a friend of mine is upset about, (but taking appropriate action), in response to some dirt done to her, he says "Sally needs to "release" on that. (His mind control program is "The Release Technique", but I'm sure you could replace the appropriate jargon from any LGAT for "release".)

This is when I feel like going off on him and telling him that the last thing Sally needs is to take the advice of some gullible robot who's handing over thousands of dollars to an obvious con man and who is deluded that his life is improving by sitting around "releasing" instead of doing anything. :x

Thanks for letting me vent. Any ideas about how to respond to this sort of thing?

Hi Q Lady,

I have no ideas. Just writing to commiserate and report that, while I was still attempting a relationship with my sister, I failed to find a way to deal with her arrogance. I, too, have a problem with arrogance.

No doubt there is a 'release' trick in every lgat. The lgat that conned me used the 'reframe' trick. It took me awhile, but I started to see that what we were being taught was the fine art of self-deception and how to play tricky games on our minds. After enough of that the mind gets mushy so you keep going back for more "help". The catch-22 is that with such a confused and disabled mind it's damn hard to find a way out; you're thinking in very distorted ways.

The tools & techniques that lgats teach are so disgustingly dehumanizing and it shows when you interact with one of the robots, as you describe. The robots also use the same "psychology" on themselves, thus keeping themselves confused and berated enough to need more "help".

I still rant! And it's been about 2 years since I learned that I spent 6 yrs and thousands of $$$$'s on a BIG DESTRUCTIVE LIE. I am still outraged.

skeptic

Thanks for commiserating Skeptic. Empathy and caring is a helpful and human response. Too bad hubby can't do that now.

I am wondering, in your LGAT days you would have told me I needed to "reframe" rather than commiserating?

Your insight is helpful. My husband is likely deceiving himself that "releasing" is the answer to all of life's problems, his and everyone else's. Perhaps he berates himself for not releasing consistently enough and well enough to attain the Release Technique goal of "imperturability" or "hootlessness", which is like berating oneself for being human and having feelings.

You're welcome.

YES! The lgat way is to berate oneself for being human. I had a long discussion with someone who'd been involved in a different cult, and we realized that non-compassion is what we were taught. And non-compassion (& disconnection) toward self is also non-compassion & disconnection toward others.

In my lgat days I was arrogant (I mistakenly thought I had become confident!), however, when I laid my arrogance on friends I somehow knew & felt that something was wrong. I was conflicted inside, but the "Truth" of the lgat superceded my reservations about being ruthless. <sigh> I saw the same with my sister after she was programmed (same lgat)

It took my father's death and seeing my sister's heartless new/"improved" personality (I recruited her!) to start to finally listen to questions I'd had all along. I now question why I dismissed my questions for so long. The lgat experience was blinding, compelling, seductive, etc. As I said, I thought I had obtained confidence, and a blueprint for living a fulfilling life. Makes me sick now to look back on those days.

When the illusion crumbled things fell apart for me. As difficult as it's been to look at the con, the betrayal, the exploitation I am very grateful that I am out of the trance.

I hope I answered your question. I'm still trying to figure out how to relate to my sister. I decided to stop trying a few years ago, and I'm not sure where to go from here. I don't trust her. I'm interested in things that you've done to deal with your husband.

skeptic

Hi question lady, I responded to a similar concern you expressed on the Avatar board, and your problem still troubles me. I too am interested in what you have tried with your husband. This is a delicate and challenging problem and I can only address it from my perspective. I hope it helps. If my position seems to be extreme, realize that the damage done to me was quite severe and it would be impossible to convince me that the degree of my reactions are not appropriate. One example of my trauma: I’ve had to cope with the reality of death again, because Hans Berger convinced me death was an illusion and a lie, and promised if I did what was required, I wouldn’t have to die! God, I’m over 30 and at times I feel like I’m 8! I had to beat my sister senseless with logic and arguments for months before she saw the light and got out, but the only reason it worked is because she wanted to listen. I’ve already shared with you how my friends got me out.

In order to address your initial question, if my LGAT-free brother were to respond to me having a similar problem with a friend as you were having by saying, “Oh, she just needs to let it go,” I would see it as an inadequate answer, but I would not have a gag reflex response to beat him upside the head for his lack of depth. But if I had a girlfriend who happened to be an Impact graduate say to me, “Oh, she needs to get out of her head and start feeling with her spirit,” I would go up in flames! I must admit, for the sake of my own sanity, I am not and [i:ba0d0aea37]could[/i:ba0d0aea37] not be around anyone involved with the Impact Trainings (or any of these groups) anymore. My tolerance is around 50 below zero. Anything Impact evokes an immediate anger response which, lately, I have been able to let cool down before I open my mouth and make a total arse of myself (although I have let it fly on these boards a few times). I know I couldn’t be intimate with anyone I see as less than an equal in any fashion, however I am NOT suggesting the only solution left to you is for you to leave your man. I do know that these feelings of betrayal, insecurity and anger are palpable and not easily dismissed, and it is [i:ba0d0aea37]difficult[/i:ba0d0aea37] to avoid transferring these hostile feelings we have toward these scams onto those who partake of them. I mean, come on, I know how stupid/naive I used to be when I was involved, so of course I think those who are still in it are greater than or equally as moronic as I was. They might as well wear a sign. Sorry for the length. Ranting is therapeutic. If I think of anything else you'll be the first to know. I’m not aware of any solutions, but I think talking about it inevitably leads to them. It depends on how close and how long you are willing dance with being, how you said, “on the verge of losing it.”

As for arrogance, it’s been a close friend. I'm still arrogant now, probably even more so, but in a different way. Lately, arrogance has been helping to keep me sane. I spent five years treating my mind and thinking as the enemy, so having confidence in what I know has been key. I guess that's the difference, I’m now arrogant about what [i:ba0d0aea37]I[/i:ba0d0aea37] know instead of being arrogant about what [i:ba0d0aea37]others[/i:ba0d0aea37] were telling me I knew.

I think ranting's therapeutic also. And reading yours, exImpact, is also therapuetic for me! I really relate to what you rant! Anything remotely similar to the CRAP I got in the lgat triggers my alarm system and my anger. I am very reactive/sensitive to anything that seems lgat-ish. I also have way less than zero tolerance for it.

Regarding separating anger at the lgat from anger at the lgat victim, I came to that point in trying to deal with my sister. I came to see that the persona she was after the lgat was no reflection on her. The "choices" she made (that were heartless and uncharacteristic of her) were not made by her freely. She was truly and literally reprogrammed. In that regard, I absolve her of her actions.

Where I am stuck is that, unless she can understand HOW things happened as they did, i.e. that she was indoctrinated, I don't trust her (it can happen again!). I have attempted to pass on to her things I have learned. A couple years ago she REFUSED to read or discuss the topic of lgats. Now, she reads things I send but REFUTES everything, and our attempted discussion (via email) is no longer viable for me. As far as I'm concerned, she's still entranced, even though she says she's not involved with them anymore.

I don't know where to go from here.

skeptic of skeptics,

I think this is the topic of topics for us dirty-brained re-conditionedees. Well, honestly I have tears in my eyes for your sister. I call LGAT grads idiots and morons and the dupes of the duped, but I do so while compassion and anger rages inside me, competing for my attention. It's...[i:00ae34fd6a]hard[/i:00ae34fd6a]. It is similar to this situation (I imagine): a sixteen-year-old girl went to a downtown night club with a fake ID and got raped. The father now struggles internally with his rage and despair, hating the rapist, himself, and his daughter's stupidity/naïveté while despairing at his failure as a father and the trauma caused to his daughter. But the compassion for his child will win out above all else, which hopefully will help him become a better father.

I used to stay awake at night, thinking how members of my family dodged a bullet by saying no to Impact. My sister was the exception, but she managed to stay in the shallow end, I have no idea how! I had a few friends who trusted me and went through, but only to the second core training, and I thank GOD they saw through it enough to leave before any real damage could be done. It’s only been recently that we have gotten back in touch (it’s been over a year. Until recently, I’ve been too embarrassed to approach them about it). Man, they must have thought I was crazy. I think compassion must win out, but I also know that your sister is still in there. I had a friend who left Impact and never gave up on me, and I was Impact’s poster boy (They even threw darts at me! Okay, figurative darts…). It took her two years, and she was careful, but she trusted I was still in there. I think everyone in these trainings sees crap that they don’t believe, no matter how deep they are, but they are programmed and conditionally reinforced to dismiss it as their “ego resistance” or whatever they call it. If enough light can be shed on those inconstancies, and the seed of doubt they have within them is nourished and allowed to germinate, I think they can pull themselves out. My intention is not to spread false hope, but I know it’s possible. The bitch is the degree of entrenchment, the details of the oppression and if they are willing to listen to you or not. The latter is the most important, anything short of expressing they-will-not-talk-about-it-anymore is an invitation for you to poke that brain with a stick to get it going again. Hey, what do you have to lose, right? Skeptic, if you want to know how I got out of Impact, its on the Impact board on page 8 or on the Avatar board. Good poking.

ex

P.S. why did your sister leave the group, what group is it and how deep did she go?

I am like the rest of you. A former LGAT Grad. I went through the 4 levels of Klemmer & Associates seminars that spanned almost 2 years of my life.

Thank God I have had my mind exposed to the truth also. Unfortunately like some of you have shared. I too have huge destruction in the wake of choosing to step into these mind control and delusional philosphies that are out there unchecked by the goverment.

I don't know about your experiences but I signed waivers at the start of all my seminars that released Klemmer from any liability from emotional damage that could be connected to these seminars.

Now I understand why they have participants sign these waivers.

Now I am spending money with professional psychriatrists to undo the mental harm that I embraced and paid for in my life.

So, I there along with the rest of you who have made the poor choice of embracing this extremely unhealthy mindset that is dominating our society with no FDA warnings of how emotionally and mentally destructive these organizations have been creating in peoples lives.

I did a search on the web before I stepped into Klemmer and only found good things.

Now I am finding out there are bad things that I did not see previously.

Klemmer & Associates are very good and controlling what is shared within the public domain. I came face to face with this censorship firsthand as I was involved in the company for 2 years.

Klemmer is very good and keeping negative comments about their seminars out of the public eyes.

Thanks ex. Lgats cause such destruction. It's sickening. The lgat we were in is an unknown one (because the leader is sooooooo ineffective, yet he was teaching us how to be winners, blah blah blah). It's called CONtext Associated and is a Lifespring spin-off. Randy Revell, who was a Lifespring co-founder, headed it up, but he died a few years ago.

My sister did not leave the group, she's just not attending courses anymore. Randy moved out of the area, then died, so things kind of slowed down. She thinks that because she's no longer involved, she's out of it but it is still in her, like a virus. She got deeply into it because she has good $$$$ so Randy courted her like crazy. She brought Randy a lot of business and even paid for people to attend his $5K course!!!!!!!!!!

She doesn't want to see that she was conned, might be one layer of her refusal to see the truth about randy. She says she sees some shortcomings in the "teachings" but she is adamant that contxt is not an lgat and that she was not mind-controlled. I tell her that she was a very different person after 6 days at the course. She has other explanations for it. One is that she tries on various teachings, as if that's what contxt was and she chose to walk out 6 days later a True Believer. She won't look at randy's covert agenda. She takes it at face value. Still trusts the conman. It so disgusts me how deep the con goes and how the nature of it blinds the subject to it. What a hideous thing!

As I said in some other thread it was relatively easy for me to recruit her into it, but it's impossible to get her out. She trusted me before the lgat, but not after the lgat. Her trust is in randy, et al now.

skeptic

Not sure how the rest of LGAT format is for other groups are but the outcome is the same.

People buy into lock stock and barrel. While at the same time the philosphy taught and embedded in participants is the inability to label something wrong.

Which is also embedded in Klemmer at the company level.

Relationships are about boundaries and boundaries are about saying no to unwanted and unwelcomed behavior from another. Healthy relationships are with people honoring and respecting each others boundaries.

LGAT's like Klemmer create boundary busting people who want to operate from a selfish platform and not hear how their behavior is causing harm to another.

In my opinion these people have been selfish at the core for a long time and the LGAT has given them tools to avoid facing this selfishness within themselves.

My desire to face my selfishness and not be has been what I believe is what was a large part in making me face the lies of Klemmer and the seminars.

For 2 years the pump of excitement and what I thought was powerful things changing in my life going through the 4 seminars of Klemmer.
Well, everything I created from Klemmer influence on my life blew up so bad. I have a gaping crater across the landscape of my life.

It is still fresh, and I am going to professional counseling to sort out the mess.

I will share more later about my experience in Klemmer.