Those of you who are into psychometrics and psychologicial assessments may be interested in taking an assessment that empowers you to ascertain your susceptibility forming irrational decisions based, in part, on inapprorpriate external influences whether they be of your own making or those purposely inflicted upon you by others.

It's called the Dysfunctional Attitude Scale or DAS.

While the complete version might be not be readily available, or somewhat expensive to take, there's an abbreviated version in the cognitive behavior therapy book "Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns that is extremely user-friendly and yet very effective and revealing of one's psychological vulnerabilities in this context. And even better, the book continues by showing you clinically proven strategies to strenghten and improve those areas of your psyche where you may have scored low.

This is particularly germane here since so many cult, cult-like and mlm techniques seem purposely designed to ellicit irrational emotional feelings and responses for the express purpose of manipulating individuals to pay money for some product and/or service that is misrepresented to alleviate such negative feelings.

CNFT

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Coldnosesandfluffytails
Those of you who are into psychometrics and psychologicial assessments may be interested in taking an assessment that empowers you to ascertain your susceptibility forming irrational decisions based, in part, on inapprorpriate external influences whether they be of your own making or those purposely inflicted upon you by others.

It's called the Dysfunctional Attitude Scale or DAS.

While the complete version might be not be readily available, or somewhat expensive to take, there's an abbreviated version in the cognitive behavior therapy book "Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns that is extremely user-friendly and yet very effective and revealing of one's psychological vulnerabilities in this context. And even better, the book continues by showing you clinically proven strategies to strenghten and improve those areas of your psyche where you may have scored low.

This is particularly germane here since so many cult, cult-like and mlm techniques seem purposely designed to ellicit irrational emotional feelings and responses for the express purpose of manipulating individuals to pay money for some product and/or service that is misrepresented to alleviate such negative feelings.

CNFT

Here I go talking to myself again... :wink:

I wish the public school system made the dsyfuncation attitude assessment (DAS) a regular part of school and even job-based counseling. It points out where people are susceptible to undue influence, and in conjunction with cognitive behavior therapy it empowers the individual to strenghten their cogntive defenses against such manipulations.

The mini DAS in the book "Feeling Good" consists of the following assessment categories:

1. Approval: Our tendency to base self-esteem based on how others react to us or how we *think* others react to us. A relative low score would indicate one who is susceptible to emotional manipulation.

2. Love: This assesses the tendency to base self worth on whether or not one is loved. A negative score is suggestive of a "love junkie" who sees love as a "need" rather than something that is to be shared between two equals. People who score lower may adopt inferior, put-down roles in their relationships for fear of losing the relationship. One of two things often happens: Ironically such an attitude repels the very people they cling to so desperately, or, worse, it make the needy individual susceptible to being manipulated and used.

3. Achievement: " A negative score suggests a workaholic with a constricted sense of self-identity that's more like a commodity than a human being. Joy and self worth are overly correlated to productivity. If productivity lags for whatever reason, self-esteem invariably lags with it. "Your work is your primary worth" is the ugly little subconscious assumption undlying this attitude.

4. Perfectionism: A negative score indicates one who is perpetually searching for utopia. Perfection is paramount at all times, mistakes are taboo, failure is worse than death and even negative emotions are a disaster. Hence people with a low score in this area irrationally think that they're supposed to look, feel, think and behave superbly at all times. Anything less plunges the person into extreme anxiety and guilt. Just being yourself, just being human is not okay for someone in this irrational mindset. Ironincally althought such people relentlessly drive themselves at an insane pace, their satisfaction is meager. Even when they achieve a goal, another more distant goal instantly replaces it, so they never experience the reward of getting to the top of the mountain. Eventually they begin to wonder why the promised payoff from all the compulsive effort never seems to materialize. Ironically life becomes a joyless, tedious treadmill. One has doomed themselves to perpetual failure by demanding perpetual perfection; a goal that no human being has ever achieved or ever will.

5. Entitlement: A negative score indicates that one feels "entitled" to things--love, success, money, having freeway conditions their way. Such individuals expect and demand that their wants be met by other people, society and the universe. When this does not happen--as is often the case--they either react with depression or become irate and/or violent.
Thus they consume an ENORMOUS amount of energy feeling frustrated, angry, resentful, fearful, anxious...and guilty for expressing all the aforementioned emotions and behaviors. Many in the throes of this irrational cognition complain loudly and often, but actually do little to solve such problems. After all: They feel entitled to have them solved buy the aforementioned, so why should they put in any effort?

5: Omnipotence: People who score low on this section of the assessement
commit the irrational cognition of personalization; they inappropriately blame themselves for the negative actions and attitudes of others (or even inanimate objects) who are not really under their control. Consequently such individuals are plagued with irrational guilt and self-condemnation. Paradoxically, the attituded that one should be omnipotent and all-powerful cripples and leaves one anxious and ineffectual. Again, just being yourself *isn't good enough* so such individuals are doomed to a lifetime of perpetual failure, anxiety, guilt and perhaps worse.

6: Autonomy: A negative score indicates one who believes that happiness comes from the outside; that you one has less control over their lives than other people or perhaps none at all. Moods end up being determined by external factors. Rather than take responsibility for their feelings and thus empower themselves, such an attituded does just the opposite.

As one looks over these, it's fairly clear how a low score in one or more of the aforementioned categories would make one susceptible to undue influence. While it was tempting to explicitly illustrate this, I think I'll leave it up to the reader to discover these truths on their own. It's more satifisfying and provides a better and more enduring learning experience.

The important thing to remember though is that CBT does not accept the concept of heaping contempt and guilt upon people who score low in these areas as so many sectarian and non-sectarian psychological systems inappropriately so often do.

It's not a character flaw to feel depressed, anxious or experience other mood disorder. Rather such are quantifiable thinking disorders that can be treated by CBT, and have over 30 years of clinical research to prove it. I'll take that any day over the nutty "feel goodisms" and verse quotings that far often seem more about feeling smug and then judging, labeling and condemning people rather than helping them.

It does no good to tell people that they should change if you then also cannot also tell them how. For many CBT finally provides the "HOW."

CNFT

I have about as much respect for the field of psychology as I do for organized religion (in other words zilch), but CBT is a sane approach in the midst of a lot of nuttiness. Too much psychology seems to have more in common with "alternative (hocus-pocus) healing" than with science.

We do spend entirely too much time "performing" for others in our lives, don't we? Seeking approval. That's why a lot of people fall into cults, because they have a desperate "need" for approval, a friendly ear. Suddenly, BINGO! There's a person who will listen and (pretend to) care. By the way they also happen to belong to this wonderful little church/group/etc., and won't you drop by some time? People have to get past the neediness of wanting approval from others for their very existence.

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Vicarion
I have about as much respect for the field of psychology as I do for organized religion (in other words zilch), but CBT is a sane approach in the midst of a lot of nuttiness. Too much psychology seems to have more in common with "alternative (hocus-pocus) healing" than with science.

We do spend entirely too much time "performing" for others in our lives, don't we? Seeking approval. That's why a lot of people fall into cults, because they have a desperate "need" for approval, a friendly ear. Suddenly, BINGO! There's a person who will listen and (pretend to) care. By the way they also happen to belong to this wonderful little church/group/etc., and won't you drop by some time? People have to get past the neediness of wanting approval from others for their very existence.

Hello Vicarion:

I agree with much of what you say. When religion and/or spirituality (they're not always necessarily the same thing) become transmogrified into a Simon-Says smugness there's something seriously amiss. And the fear of having that directed upon one's self is a powerful motivator to act like the group. Yes, you're absolutely correct.

This was particularly true the other day when one of the Sunday morning windbags implied that he was an authority on depression. Pastor Windbag's (PWB) cure?

PWB: Are you thinking depressive thoughts?

A: Well, stop doing that! And while you're at it read more Bible verses.

My observation: Okay *HOW* genius?! Simply telling someone *NOT* to do something isn't helpful, and additionally labeling them as *BAD* only makes things worse.

PWB: Are you depressed?

Well then, you're simply a total failure as a Christian and "useless to God" (Yes that is his quote). And the fact that you're feeling as such proves it. Therefore by implication I get to feel smug and superior when I compare myself to you.

My observation: Just great. So lets aggravate the condition with some additional irrational guilt, anxiety and depression as well because the irony is that what you've just said, Pastor, is an irrational cognition that causes the very things you claim to want to eradicate.

Or how about that particular twisted form of pseudo New Age philosophy created expressly by cults and cult-like organizations to manipulate people to buy what they are peddling?:

Q: Anxious, guilty, depressed, sick, beaten, robbed, stuck in a death camp, lost an appendage, dying...?

A: Well... you created that! It's YOUR responsibility, and YOU'RE the one who should apologize for it. I get to feel smug because I'm not like you, so I get to berate you.

My obersvation: Alrighty then, so lets blame the victim for not being perfect, omniscient and omnipotent?!

Name one human being living or dead in the history of humankind who ever was, is or will be ANY of those things?!

Yeah, that's right.

And since no human can or ever will be perfect, omniscient or omnipotent, it's simply a twisted blame game of perpetual failure that never ends and pays pathological dividends of irrational anxiety, guilt and even more depression...or the worst of all.

Frankly if I knew of someone who was contemplating a forum or cult experience, the DAS test is what I'd recommend if time and money were an issue since such assessments typically are only available for a fee and via a licensed vendor. At least it would help the individual become aware of where they have emotional-intelligence vulnerabilities. And best of all the abbreviated version in "Feeling Good" is free, and the book is free at the local library.

CNFT

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Q: Anxious, guilty, depressed, sick, beaten, robbed, stuck in a death camp, lost an appendage, dying...?

A: Well... you created that! It's YOUR responsibility, and YOU'RE the one who should apologize for it. I get to feel smug because I'm not like you, so I get to berate you.

My obersvation: Alrighty then, so lets blame the victim for not being perfect, omniscient and omnipotent?!

Name one human being living or dead in the history of humankind who ever was, is or will be ANY of those things?!

Well exactly!

The whole "You create your own reality!" concept is one of the nastiest things about the new age/new thought movement. It is a belief that allows people to feel a certain condescending smugness when others have (or to use more new age lingo, "manifest") problems. I've seen time and again how the "create your own reality" notion is used like a baseball bat over the heads of people in times of crisis by their so-called "friends" in new age/new thought groups or churches. I trip them up in their metaphysical "logic" by making statements like, "Maybe THEY aren't creating THEIR reality, perhaps YOU are creating THEM creating that reality...just so you can be a horse's ass!" :roll: :lol:

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Vicarion

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Q: Anxious, guilty, depressed, sick, beaten, robbed, stuck in a death camp, lost an appendage, dying...?

A: Well... you created that! It's YOUR responsibility, and YOU'RE the one who should apologize for it. I get to feel smug because I'm not like you, so I get to berate you.

My obersvation: Alrighty then, so lets blame the victim for not being perfect, omniscient and omnipotent?!

Name one human being living or dead in the history of humankind who ever was, is or will be ANY of those things?!

Well exactly!

The whole "You create your own reality!" concept is one of the nastiest things about the new age/new thought movement. It is a belief that allows people to feel a certain condescending smugness when others have (or to use more new age lingo, "manifest") problems. I've seen time and again how the "create your own reality" notion is used like a baseball bat over the heads of people in times of crisis by their so-called "friends" in new age/new thought groups or churches. I trip them up in their metaphysical "logic" by making statements like, "Maybe THEY aren't creating THEIR reality, perhaps YOU are creating THEM creating that reality...just so you can be a horse's ass!" :roll: :lol:

Hi, Vicarion:

I think you are particularly right when such manifestation theory is in the context of cult or cult-like organizations, for example, Landmark's interpretation of "creating one's own reality."

It's just a sick blame game disguised as "therapy" and "philosophy" that's used to manipulate people. And with a little thought and effort, cognitive behavior theory does a beautiful job of exposing its sick twisted "logic."

However in genuine Eastern philosphy which isn't necessarly cultic as defined by Rick Ross, such manifestation theory is at least within the context of reincarnation; that people are spiritual beings who occasionally have physical incarnations--which then at least makes logical sense within that context.

However just because it's logical within it's own context doesn't necessarily make it true...or false. So perhaps it's just a matter of belief.

However since Landmark denies teaching such things, they've painted themselves into a corner, and consequently their manifestation theory is illogical.

In any event, I feel it's important to differentiate genuine Eastern philosophy from its transmogrified and ugly Western sister known as human potential movement--Landmark, Lifespring, Est, and similar...

I've known many people of diverse spiritual persuations from here and abroad. They despise cults too, and I hold the Rick Ross website in the highest esteem for it sticks to the scientific definition of what a cult is rather than sink to the level of using the word "cult" as a pejorative for anything that the speaker/writer is intolerant of. While such indulgences may feel good, they come at the expense being perceived as--like Wikipedia--potentially biased and intellectually dishonest if a vocal minority abuses it even with the best of intentions.

Atheists, orthodox religious types, Eastern philosophers and New Agers may condemn cults and cult-like organizations for vastly different reasons. But at least we can all agree on this one thing: Cults are bad.

And maybe that's the first step towards fighting cultic infestation the most effectively.

Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year to all,

CNFT

For my money, Emerson said it best: "The mind does not create what it perceives, any more than the eye creates the rose."

Happy Holidays to all.

~V

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Vicarion
For my money, Emerson said it best: "The mind does not create what it perceives, any more than the eye creates the rose."

Happy Holidays to all.

~V

Hello V:

Toward the end of his life, Emerson was asked by a clergyman if he'd made his peace with God. Emerson replied that he'd not been aware that they had quarreled.

Perhaps that very same clergyman also remarked that the transcendentalist Emerson was someone who netther God nor the Devil would know quite what to do with.

Yes, the world would be much better off if more people were like Emerson.

CNFT