What would it take to stop people like Tony Robbins, and groups like Landmark and PSI Seminars? I mean really, what would have to happen?

I would not want to infringe on their freedom of speach. Really, they do have a right to yack all they want about their ideas and philosophies. So do I and so do you. They do have a right to sell a product. There is nothing wrong with selling a seminar that teaches skills or tools.

But should they have the right to exploit the people who their product appeals too? Just how are they exploiting people?

How can anyone prove that they are exploiting people?

How can you show that there is a conflict of interest inherent in their sales and marketing plan? Isn't there a problem with sales people using psychological tools and running a therapy camp. As it stands all they have to do is say "we are not practicing psychotherapy" then they do ahead and do.


The legal disclaimer they have people sign is just rediculous. Looking back I understand why I did, but geez if I ever see anything like that again I'm going to run away.

I've heard that doctors and nutritionists can not sell their own drugs or supplements etc, that this could result in their license being taken away.

How could one convince the goverment that these types of enterprises should be licensed? Should they be licensed? Should there be requirements for how they operate? Would you really want the government involved in one more thing?

As it stands I see no way for someone who has been harmed by these groups to find any recourse. If you read any of my other posts you will know why I wish I had some legal recourse. It appears that the trainers/facilitators can do or say anything to people who show up to these seminars. If my therapist said to me what was said to me at PSI 7 I'd have her license taken away. At least I believe I could. Anyone know better?

How do these types of laws come to be? How could a law be written that could stop the exploitation.

I realize thats a lot of questions, but if you have any thoughts on any of them I'd love to know.

PSISurvivor

Hi PSIsurvivor,

Legislation, media and word of mouth are the three potential ways to curtail/stop the work of LGATS.

[b:1728b9dd67]Legislation[/b:1728b9dd67] is the most difficult but probably the most effective. Landmark has been curtailed in France and Sweden, to what extent I do not know.

[b:1728b9dd67]Legislation may focus on:[/b:1728b9dd67]
a) the unethical aspects of LGATS, in particular, Landmark using know psychological therapies to drive home a philosophy.
b) the employment of an unpaid workforce. In France, Landmark has been prevented from using the labour of unpiad assistants.
c) The deception involved in the sale process of courses - They are selling a wolf in sheeps clothing. They are not selling a wolf or a sheep. They are not selling what they say they are so the public needs to be protected.

I strongly believe that a "thinktank" needs to be set up to look at the legal aspects of legislation. It is fine to say that LGATs and their promoters need to enjoy free speech but this democratic right is being exploited.


[b:1728b9dd67]Media[/b:1728b9dd67] - refer to the 60 Minutes thread on this board. Landmark is being investigated by 60 Minutes in Australia. If and when this story goes to air, the effect of it will spread to UK/Europe and North America. Back in Australia, my LGAT, "Money and You", (comprising of philosophy from Buckminster Fuller and Scientology), was put out of business through a "4 Corners" Current Affairs production in 1993. Media can definately work!

[b:1728b9dd67]Word of Mouth[/b:1728b9dd67] - we are trying in this area but its all up hill.

Oz

Unfortunately, they operate in a legal gray area. The practices of psychology and psychiatry are so broad and so inclusive, and fraught with their own bogus contingent, that it is almost impossible to define what is and what isn't psychotherapy, hypnosis, psychological coercion, etc. The lawyers and courts could make a case for "undue influence," but that would be exceedingly difficult considering most Landmarkers are walking, talking, and functioning. So far, no one has been willing to pick up the gauntlet. Landmark and Lifespring are quick to negotiate and settle out of court, generously, and having court records sealed and people silenced. They know how damaging the exposure would be and how to game the system in their favor.

Other countries have no trouble identifying or categorizing them as destructive or coersive or dangerous groups, but they don't have the constitutional mandate we have to protect here in the U.S. Too bad; what is generally regarded as "freedom of religion" or "free speech" can just as easily be used to enslave people. And for the perpetrators, they are provided with both weapon and shield.



Ellen

Thanks for the input. It is so frustrating. I know that these groups are harmful to people, but there are so many of them and so many people who are looking for someone else to just tell them the answer. People seem to believe that there is an answer out there somewhere that someone can give them. The willingness to be led combined with the coercive persuasion techniques that LGATS are so experienced at creates a complex situation.

Most of the people I know who have done the PSI seminars feel like they got something positive out of it. The others just shrug it off as just an experience and don't feel injured by it.

Lots of people get away and don't fall for the sales pitch. I don't remember the percentage, but at the BASIC I staffed only 9 people signed up for more seminars. There were about 50 in the class. The staff got reamed for that. Somehow it was our failing, our not giving enough, that "created that result". When I spoke with the people I had staffed with they all thought that blaming us was bullshit.

I look back on my experience of abuse at PSI 7 and realize that the injury and harm that occured to me was done by a trainer/facilitator who was acting out of his own perverted self interest. What he choose to do and say really isn't part of the PSI program. That the organization as a whole chooses to ignore it is just sick. It reminds me of a mother who turns a blind eye to the father who rapes his daughters.

Just so you know I did send a letter to Jane Whilhite the owner and co-founder of PSI Seminars. It's posted in another thread. I never got any reply. I also notified the FTC and got no reply.

At the very least the power these types of programs have over people needs to be acknowledged. The trainers should have a code of ethics to abide by and the students should have recourse if any trainer oversteps his boundaries. PSI Seminar trainers do not seem to understand healthy boundaries. I can remember Gary saying to me "there is nothing you can do to me. You signed the release form and I can do anything I want to you.".

The basic stuff they teach at PSI is just the same cobbled together human potential new age stuff that one finds in Lifespring, Context, Landmark etc. They say it's different, but it's not really. They have some small differences in presentation, but same shit different bag.

The people who run PSI Seminars, the organization, is a dysfunctional nightmare.

Unfortunately, these types of Hucksters have operated since the beginning of time. Maybe some of the first cults were breakaway Tribes? I don't know.

Whatever laws were passed, they would adapt.
Most of them use "freedom of religion" to hide behind. They would just be like Scientology, and call it a Religion.

How can one control freedom of religion? Impossible.

Probably the only way to have an impact is through teaching Critical Thinking.
But it seems to me that many people appear to NEED to follow someone. Maybe its because we are primates, and primates live in Dominance Hierarchies?

Obviously i don't have the answers, but i do my little part by injecting Critical Thought wherever i can.
Skepticism is a Meme too, and spreads as well.

But in my view, these people will just continue to operate right on the edge of the law. That's just the way they are.

I think the RickRoss websites, and other anti-cult websites are having an impact.
But once these guys get their fingers into peoples brains, its very hard to get them out.
These cultish groups will be with us for the foreseeable future.
Probably forever.

Coz

I think that legislation is one of the best options because as well as providing legal redress it strongly acknowledges to everyone the dangers of organisations such as Landmark. People take notice.

Some other options:

A film made about a person getting sucked into a LGAT like Landmark and all the effects on those around them and themselves, highlighting examples of persuasion and so on and of course made by some well-known director and using Hollywood stars (!) would be a very powerful way to educate people about the pitfalls. People are quick learners when they have it shown to them in a medium such as film. A bit like seeing 'behind the scenes' of how the magician does his tricks. Also, art and creativity are powerful forces for change.

So, anyone out there know of any film-makers prepared to take it on, get them on to it...

Another, is a suggestion I made on another thread - Michael Moore's next big documentary - exposing Landmark. Send him your suggestions for this.

I think that children in school could have some education about the types of persuasion techniques that can be used on them. It could come in under issues around advertising and consumer protection, but of course what we are talking about is much more than this. In Australia kids learn about water safety, 'what to do in a house-fire', 'stranger-danger', safe-sex etc etc - one more issue that exposed the 'how' of coercive persuasion could prevent a lot of people getting in the door in the first place. What happens after that is much more complicated in terms of the hypnosis, room manipulation etc. This being more suitable for teenagers. Education in schools would hopefully be an outcome of legislation.

And of course, keep on emailing investigative news programmes with the suggestion that they look into Landmark.

I keep a folder of print-outs of different articles off the web from sites such as this one. This can be helpful to pass on quickly (and you certainly have to be quick, when you see a friend being pressured to go to a course, and you want them to check out the 'real' Landmark.)

Also a list of websites, quick and easy to email to a friend, again under pressure from Landmarkians, is another useful thing.

any other ideas?

I think that legislation is one of the best options because as well as providing legal redress it strongly acknowledges to everyone the dangers of organisations such as Landmark. People take notice.

Some other options:

A film made about a person getting sucked into a LGAT like Landmark and all the effects on those around them and themselves, highlighting examples of persuasion and so on and of course made by some well-known director and using Hollywood stars (!) would be a very powerful way to educate people about the pitfalls. People are quick learners when they have it shown to them in a medium such as film. A bit like seeing 'behind the scenes' of how the magician does his tricks. Also, art and creativity are powerful forces for change.

So, anyone out there know of any film-makers prepared to take it on, get them on to it...

Another, is a suggestion I made on another thread - Michael Moore's next big documentary - exposing Landmark. Send him your suggestions for this.

I think that children in school could have some education about the types of persuasion techniques that can be used on them. It could come in under issues around advertising and consumer protection, but of course what we are talking about is much more than this. In Australia kids learn about water safety, 'what to do in a house-fire', 'stranger-danger', safe-sex etc etc - one more issue that exposed the 'how' of coercive persuasion could prevent a lot of people getting in the door in the first place. What happens after that is much more complicated in terms of the hypnosis, room manipulation etc. This being more suitable for teenagers. Education in schools would hopefully be an outcome of legislation.

And of course, keep on emailing investigative news programmes with the suggestion that they look into Landmark.

I keep a folder of print-outs of different articles off the web from sites such as this one. This can be helpful to pass on quickly (and you certainly have to be quick, when you see a friend being pressured to go to a course, and you want them to check out the 'real' Landmark.)

Also a list of websites, quick and easy to email to a friend, again under pressure from Landmarkians, is another useful thing.

any other ideas?

I agree that spreading the Meme of the coercive persuasion techniques of these people is a great project.
Books on the subject are a great start, and then those Docs and even a good Hollywood movie would be great.
Being in show-biz though, i know Hollywood is about making money, and is run by weasels, so you are more likely to get a pro-cult movie out of Hollywood!
Or they would do some type of oversimplification.
Making movies is very expensive, and those Investors don't want to lose miliions.

But, maybe Oliver Stone or somebody could do a great job!

For example, i have not seen this movie yet, but it appears to be some type of "culty" movie, with info from TM, and Ramtha, etc.
[www.whatthebleep.com]

This movie will sell much better, and could very well be financed covertly by a cult, or some fanatics. I don't know, i'll let you know when i see it. It could be an anti-cult movie, but from looking at the website, it appears pretty creduous.

There are a few posts about this movie here.
[www.tonyrobbins.com]

Coz

Also, Penn and Teller have a Showtime TV show called Bullshit!
(US only)
[www.sho.com]

Which takes on all sorts of nonsense.
Perhaps they would do a show on LGAT's in general, or even Landmark?
These guys are very smart, and tough, and gutsy.
They just might do it.

If someone has a good document, you could send it to their producers, follow-up, etc.

Coz

Rachel,

I liked your idea about advising schools and school children about the dangers of LGATs.

I learnt 2 days ago that a Secondary School on the North Shore of Sydney, Australia has been infiltrated by Landmark and students, 13 to 17 years, have been participating in Landmark Forum for Teens for at least the last 5 years.

Let this be a warning to partents. Please investigate any external course that has been recommended through a school or church for your children to attend. It may be Landmark or another LGAT.

Oz