Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: July 03, 2005 11:48PM
Quote
BalkanBoy
Heheh :), ok Elena - so what would it take to stop the conversation then? Should I admit guilt - ok - I admit it :). I think at this point you are so resigned to the fact that I need "help" - there's probably little I can say or do, to persuade you otherwise.
Not so. Not likely, in any case. I don't imagine you'll have much of a clue till you rack up a lot of disappointing relationships and begin to question the exploitive dogma and fake intimacy of Landmark. You may "believe" you are "communicating" with people in some superior way, but that is a delusion that you, probably, will only find out after many sad encounters and disasterous involvements. It's hard to reach anyone while they are in, what cult-watchers call, "thrall." When people are "high" or "buzzed" from the emotional "intoxicants" they don't much care what us sober party-poopers have to say. So, no.....I don't think you'll be in a position to cure yourself, with or without "help," of a cult-designed and imposed mental illness until you've suffered the "hang-over" for a good long time.
Quote
There is one nagging thing that bothers me though - which I can't prove to myself of course - what are you actually afraid of here?
That more and more "normal," decent, honest, intelligent people will be suckered into a predatory and exploitive mind-set, a damaging and digusting world-view, and a devastating psycho/intellectual/emotional racket like Landmark and/or all the other copy-cat groups. It's astonishingly easy for these scammers to fool lots and lots of people. Remember, they target the suggestible, the malleable, those easily led or seduced, the cooperative and eager to get along, the self-sacrificing - on the whole, pretty nice people who, mostly, don't deserve to be tricked, used, lied-to, fooled, and taken advantage of.
And, that you, and others like you, will spread the noxious, infectious, and poisonous "thought-virus" farther and deeper into the culture. Answer me this: Why are you, specifically, so anxious, eager, and willing to use their jargon, their "concepts," and their "position?"
Quote
Why the heated debate? There is a premise to your antagonism - do you want to share it?
You'll figure it out sooner or later.
Quote
Maybe then we can begin to truly understand each other without all the negativism :).
Not likely while you're pushing and/or posturing Landmark-style. And don't be fooled into thinking you can get away with it if you jettison the jargon. It's still easily recognized by anyone with a prior "exposure."
Quote
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them.
Martin
You're welcome,
Ellen
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
BalkanBoy
()
Date: July 04, 2005 03:06PM
Elena - I picked up the Landmark 'jargon' while looking for cult news. This site is one of the most informative ones on the issues and so I thought I'd play a practical joke by provoking people into thinking I've been at the Landmark forum :). So now you know - I have not been to it - but I enjoyed the response I squeezed out of getting people to think that I could've been in it. It was interesting to see the responses actually :). There is a lot of hostility toward Landmark - and I don't know whether their intentions are cruel or honest - only what I read here. I actually have no idea what 'enrollment' means :), or that it was used at the "forum" (or what have you) but I gathered as much to know that it means some sort of subtle propaganda.
Listen, I'm really sorry I got you guys all wound up - I hope you can forgive me. Curiosity just got the best of me :), so I played a fool here ;). And yeah, I'm an engineer, and I've had my sense of good honest humor surgically removed from me long time ago (maybe that's why my wife hates it too ;).
c'est la vie :),
Martin
Listen, I'm really sorry I got you guys all wound up - I hope you can forgive me. Curiosity just got the best of me :), so I played a fool here ;). And yeah, I'm an engineer, and I've had my sense of good honest humor surgically removed from me long time ago (maybe that's why my wife hates it too ;).
c'est la vie :),
Martin
Quote
elenaQuote
BalkanBoy
Heheh :), ok Elena - so what would it take to stop the conversation then? Should I admit guilt - ok - I admit it :). I think at this point you are so resigned to the fact that I need "help" - there's probably little I can say or do, to persuade you otherwise.
Not so. Not likely, in any case. I don't imagine you'll have much of a clue till you rack up a lot of disappointing relationships and begin to question the exploitive dogma and fake intimacy of Landmark. You may "believe" you are "communicating" with people in some superior way, but that is a delusion that you, probably, will only find out after many sad encounters and disasterous involvements. It's hard to reach anyone while they are in, what cult-watchers call, "thrall." When people are "high" or "buzzed" from the emotional "intoxicants" they don't much care what us sober party-poopers have to say. So, no.....I don't think you'll be in a position to cure yourself, with or without "help," of a cult-designed and imposed mental illness until you've suffered the "hang-over" for a good long time.Quote
There is one nagging thing that bothers me though - which I can't prove to myself of course - what are you actually afraid of here?
That more and more "normal," decent, honest, intelligent people will be suckered into a predatory and exploitive mind-set, a damaging and digusting world-view, and a devastating psycho/intellectual/emotional racket like Landmark and/or all the other copy-cat groups. It's astonishingly easy for these scammers to fool lots and lots of people. Remember, they target the suggestible, the malleable, those easily led or seduced, the cooperative and eager to get along, the self-sacrificing - on the whole, pretty nice people who, mostly, don't deserve to be tricked, used, lied-to, fooled, and taken advantage of.
And, that you, and others like you, will spread the noxious, infectious, and poisonous "thought-virus" farther and deeper into the culture. Answer me this: Why are you, specifically, so anxious, eager, and willing to use their jargon, their "concepts," and their "position?"Quote
Why the heated debate? There is a premise to your antagonism - do you want to share it?
You'll figure it out sooner or later.Quote
Maybe then we can begin to truly understand each other without all the negativism :).
Not likely while you're pushing and/or posturing Landmark-style. And don't be fooled into thinking you can get away with it if you jettison the jargon. It's still easily recognized by anyone with a prior "exposure."Quote
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them.
Martin
You're welcome,
Ellen
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
Toni
()
Date: July 04, 2005 09:29PM
Quote
BalkanBoy
.........and I've had my sense of good honest humor surgically removed from me long time ago (maybe that's why my wife hates it too ;).Quote
BalkanBoy
BalkanBoy:
Maybe your wife would glean some value from the section on "Abusive and Controlling Relationships"?
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: July 04, 2005 09:35PM
Quote
BalkanBoy
Elena - I picked up the Landmark 'jargon' while looking for cult news. This site is one of the most informative ones on the issues and so I thought I'd play a practical joke by provoking people into thinking I've been at the Landmark forum :). So now you know - I have not been to it - but I enjoyed the response I squeezed out of getting people to think that I could've been in it. It was interesting to see the responses actually :). There is a lot of hostility toward Landmark - and I don't know whether their intentions are cruel or honest - only what I read here. I actually have no idea what 'enrollment' means :), or that it was used at the "forum" (or what have you) but I gathered as much to know that it means some sort of subtle propaganda
Martin,
You are a very good manipulator. You try to make us feel guilty for being hostile to Landmark. If you haven't done the landmark Forum like you say now, then you cannot understand our real intention which is to inform and educate against those who are playing with peoples mind and children's mind using deception and trickery. If you are lying to us again and are a real Landmarkian trying to manipulate us even further, you should understand why we are so hostile. Logic, isn't it?
Here's some more of this closed logic type of nonsense:
"Believe me when I say I havn't been honest with you"!
Michael D
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 04, 2005 10:04PM
Playing this kind of practical joke treats people like objects. It is not humor, but verbal abuse, and anyone who does this routinely has a wounding effect on the community because this behavior undermines
the bond of trust without which community cannot function.
Genuine humor is in a context of shared respect in which we see each other as persons, never as objects to be toyed with.
The worst feature of any cult or abusive relationship is that it treats people like objects, as means to an end and denies our essential dignity.
the bond of trust without which community cannot function.
Genuine humor is in a context of shared respect in which we see each other as persons, never as objects to be toyed with.
The worst feature of any cult or abusive relationship is that it treats people like objects, as means to an end and denies our essential dignity.
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
Savernake
()
Date: July 05, 2005 12:14AM
How bizarre. Whatever would prompt such a "joke"? Especially as it seems that you know next to nothing about the issues involved (if it is true in fact that you have no involvement in Landmark other than what you've read on this internet site).
I'm not personally offended, just mystified. I like to understand what motivates people. Why were you reading up on cults anyway? What led you to believe that pretending to be a Landroid (good one Elena!) would be a humourous ruse? Is this something you do commonly? (and if so, please do give examples of what you've pretended to be and why -- it might help to understand what amuses you in this respect)
I'm not personally offended, just mystified. I like to understand what motivates people. Why were you reading up on cults anyway? What led you to believe that pretending to be a Landroid (good one Elena!) would be a humourous ruse? Is this something you do commonly? (and if so, please do give examples of what you've pretended to be and why -- it might help to understand what amuses you in this respect)
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: July 05, 2005 12:55AM
About Martin the joker ...
I believe it is likely that he is a real Landmark graduate. And that he just wants to make us fell stupid about wasting our time among non-Landmarkians. Chances are that he is trying to manipulate us into thinking that we are hostile to Landmark without any sound reasons, just because we are hostile people and because we have a problem. Next, he will be offering us Landmark as a "gift" to cure ourselves! IMHO, what he said about his childhood experience, his beliefs etc... are all too sincere for him not to be a Landmarkian. Either that, or he is an expert con artist. A good attribute for a Landmark candidate. In any case, the manipulation technique doesn't work with me.
Michael D
I believe it is likely that he is a real Landmark graduate. And that he just wants to make us fell stupid about wasting our time among non-Landmarkians. Chances are that he is trying to manipulate us into thinking that we are hostile to Landmark without any sound reasons, just because we are hostile people and because we have a problem. Next, he will be offering us Landmark as a "gift" to cure ourselves! IMHO, what he said about his childhood experience, his beliefs etc... are all too sincere for him not to be a Landmarkian. Either that, or he is an expert con artist. A good attribute for a Landmark candidate. In any case, the manipulation technique doesn't work with me.
Michael D
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
ULTAWARE
()
Date: July 05, 2005 01:30PM
balkanboy,
It's interesting that your description of the "make-believe" event was: "mom/dad reprimanding you for stepping in it " ...when you were simply asked to answer a question related to viewing an event...was your "trainer" treating you this way? rather than educating/helping you learn on your own how to survive the jungle?
You started out with logic (Engineer) then flipped to this quickly...just curious...please clarify.
thx
PAX
It's interesting that your description of the "make-believe" event was: "mom/dad reprimanding you for stepping in it " ...when you were simply asked to answer a question related to viewing an event...was your "trainer" treating you this way? rather than educating/helping you learn on your own how to survive the jungle?
You started out with logic (Engineer) then flipped to this quickly...just curious...please clarify.
thx
PAX
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
Coldnosesandfluffytails
()
Date: July 06, 2005 06:06AM
<<Hey man - sounds to me like your friend is making conscious choices when he said that. Whether you choose to label him a freak - is up to you. The man may not still have gotten off the forum's "high" - but believe me, it wears off.>>
Funny how you assume I'm referring to someone specific when I wasn't even thinking of anyone in particular--simply the hypothetical--and then proceed as if the assumption is fact.
<<Now, I can't say for others - but is there not a possibility that someone thinks they got all their marbles up there lined up but they really don't? I think it's possible. And maybe those people, who convince themselves on the form that they are ok - but 'somehow' know they are not...>>
I'd say most definetely... :wink:
Funny how you assume I'm referring to someone specific when I wasn't even thinking of anyone in particular--simply the hypothetical--and then proceed as if the assumption is fact.
<<Now, I can't say for others - but is there not a possibility that someone thinks they got all their marbles up there lined up but they really don't? I think it's possible. And maybe those people, who convince themselves on the form that they are ok - but 'somehow' know they are not...>>
I'd say most definetely... :wink:
Landmark, rackets and illness
Posted by:
glam
()
Date: July 06, 2005 09:33AM
Quote
BalkanBoy
I have to make some distinctions before we move on:
So your _story_ about stepping in dog poop (an actual physical event) is one filled with disgust, based on "trauma" (mom/dad reprimanding you for stepping in it), and you _decide_/_choose_/_elect_/what have you the _EXPERIENCE_ is now _bad_, without ever knowing so.
I know, I'd do the same if I wasn't aware of the distinction. The forum shakes you up in a way that you make the distinction. Whether you can handle it or not, is, yes, as Margaret Singer said - _potentially unsafe/dangerous_. I think I handled it and got "something out of it".
the 'blueprint' of who we are:
Def #3: "feeling the need to know" - a story/decision we made up about Def #1 & Def #2 based on past stories/decisions/traumas.
It's not complex at all - it's about making the distinction. So when those bad forum people told you you did not get "it" , I guess what they mean is you don't get the distinction.
Granted, a lot of them will blabber about other things, and what those things will be is a reflection of their pasts/traumas/decisions etc - which may or may not differ from ours - as they say in the cyber world - YMMV - your mileage may very. And some do continue to seek support where support can not be found - by purchasing the Advanced courses and paying out money to Landmark by the dozens, much like you are paying money to anything else at your own free will, but since we're so bound by material crap, we think we get something out of paying for it, whereas with the forum, based on our prior fears/pasts/decisions/traumas/defensive mechanisms, we label it "brainwashing", etc.
Well guess what - I got brainwashed by my parents to think going to school is good.
I do not blame you. I just want you to realize that that is who we/you/are. Or at least HOPE to realize that that is who we are - a semantics-adding, bitching/complaining, walking machine - and we defend against everything and everyone when we're 30, and yet at age 3 or 4 or 5 you think that maybe you could even swim across the Atlantic - because you learned how to swim in the shallow waters... right?
Do you get "it" or no? :) Not to sound like a forum junkie - but I was wide awake while it was going on - no one hypnotized me. As you've certainly read and know :) - you can not
be hypnotized against your conscious will, right?
Ok - mark my words on this one - no one but yourself can convince yourself into anything. Just remember that from now on.
Thanks for having a dialogue and not calling me a freak.
Martin
Holey Moley, you're really in deep.
If only you could look back at your post and see how incredibly self-involved and patronizing you sound. Along with confused and nonsensical. Stepping in dog poo, a childhood trauma! :roll:
At this point in your "training," (you [b:0e9b62b9fb]can[/b:0e9b62b9fb] by hypnotized against your conscious will, BTW), you honestly feel you've "learned" some amazing "distinctions" the rest of us don't "get." But all you've done is taken some very simple questions and churned out some extremely convoluted, premeditated answers that belie just how hypnotized you are.
Whew!
Glam
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