And therapists are starting to utilize this "technology" more and more.

Here's my interpretation of the forum - as I've been in it - take it however you wish:

I think your friend is forgetting to make a distinction between the physical realm and the mind realm. What lives in the physical realm is very much real - regardless of what anyone tells you. Try defying gravity with your mind, or keep telling yourself that you can do it - can you really do it?

Same with illness - it is a physical reality, perhaps invisible but very much present in your body in the form of either a virus, or bacteria or whatever it is that is ailing a sick person.

Enrolling someone in the possibility of a cure means that you commit to beating the ailment by finding a cure. Will that happen in the ill person's lifetime? No one knows. Will we cure cancer in this lifetime? I'd be presumptuous if I said I knew anything beyond what I read in the news. This does not take away your committment however.

There's also another distinction - people sometimes "think" themselves into an illness - because they THINK they are ill, so they FEEL ill - a.k.a. the placebo effect. Perhaps that person does not realize the distinction between these two things, so he thinks ANYTHING is possible. "Anything is possible" is a metaphore at best - left up to you to decide what it means to you. It meant a whole lot when you were 6. It doesn't mean that much anymore when you're 30, 40 or 50 now, does it? Why is that? What happened? And what story did you make up or choice did you make about and because of what happened?

It's quite simple. Don't be afraid. :)

cheers,
Martin

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Potter500
I am new to this forum and am seeking some information.

I am close to a Landmark member who has completed up to and including SELP. I am very sceptical about Landmark and fearful about what it means for my friend. I have lots of questions but one issue is in view at the momnent.

My friend has made many disparaging remarks about those who are ill saying that this is "their racket". This seems also to extend to those who are dying through terminal illness which is apparently because those people "have not enrolled those around them in the possibility of a cure".

Whilst I would acknowledge there is a mind/body/spirit dimension to illness, particularly terminal illness, I don't think this is what is meant by these remarks. Can anyone shed any light on this part of the Landmark belief system?

Thanks for reading this :)

I agree with alot of what has been discussed here...some therapists, some chiropractors and self-anointed "Sharmans" believe the philosophy so deeply...like the theory of Chaos (was it a monarch?) makes some sense but with rational thinking, it is put into perspective but if the mind is controlled, it takes in info to spill out later like a CD, IMO.

The amazing, sad take...is others of our own species do these type of things to other members of the same species! (remember frosh yr at the U, volunteering for experiments during which this happened?

(;-[

I still agree with Mulner about the "T" bein' there...it always is, mostly it's covered up.

PAX

Hey you guys,

It has been awhile sicne I had face-to-face with a leccie...any suggestive questions/behavior observation I could que - in on to try to "possify" (how's that for a new Enlie word?) a leccie person?

THX

Elena - are you talking from personal experience about the forum or is it all stuff you've just heard? I am sorry, but I can not make an informed opinion about something only by reading about it. That's like saying you can learn how to ride a bike just by watching people or hearing about people riding them. Sorry. It'll take a little more than "I heard" to convince us of the goodness or badness of Landmark.

Martin

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elena

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sonnie_dee

This is very true. One of the things I heard a lot of was "you are enrolling everyone in your story of ill health"

I could never work that out because If i was "enrolling" surely they wouldn't keep coaching me on how I wasn't sick?

Oh Lordy....you can see how this would get just about anybody all tied up in knots if they valued their job, their position, the group of people they were with, the labor they had put into the endeavor, the future they envision with the group, etc., etc.

It is just sooooo silly. And so cruel, to do this to someone.

Not only does the person have to suffer the disease, but the "idea" that they did it to themselves. How could you possibly feel worse. It's like living with your own worst enemy - YOU. Of course, that means giving over to someone else, specifically, your "coach," who is positioned to be a better, illness-free friend to your very own pathetic self. Yikes! Manipulative, predatory, and ruthless. An "upline" exploitive "friend" who is positioned to profit from your labor, sap your energy, and suck the life out of you. All the while having you "believe" they are working in YOUR interests. Quite a trick! And absolutely disgusting.


Ellen

BalkanBoy:

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It'll take a little more than "I heard" to convince us of the goodness or badness of Landmark.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The database section includes first-hand accounts under "Personal Stories" and many of the reports published in magazines/newspapers were written by people that completed the Forum.

There is also research based upon experience.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This outlines the basic problems with mass marathon training like Landmark.

If you search through this message board you will find many first-hand accounts and experiences posted by Landmark graduates and some by former Landmark staff.

Landmark has a deeply troubled history of complaints, personal injury claims/lawsuits and bad press.

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BalkanBoy
Here's my interpretation of the forum - as I've been in it - take it however you wish: (snip) cheers, Martin

Spoken like a true neophyte/believer/newbie"grad"/"junior forum leader."

What brings you here, young man? Surely you don't believe the quasi/pseudo/malarky a bunch of con artists have "invented" and concocted from the remnants of some old 1950s and 1960s cults? Or perhaps you like a twisted version of "Christian" "science," as far as illness and disease are concerned (neither Christian nor science, as some wag pointed out). C'mon, do a little better than this. We're more demanding than the forum audience.


(Your clue is in your moniker.)



Elena

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BalkanBoy
Elena - are you talking from personal experience about the forum or is it all stuff you've just heard? I am sorry, but I can not make an informed opinion about something only by reading about it. That's like saying you can learn how to ride a bike just by watching people or hearing about people riding them.

Martin

After three decades in business, they can't come up with a new example for the old "you must experience it to believe it" schtick? The bicycle-riding analogy is getting old.

Martin, I have an exercise for you:

Think about how "you must experience it to believe it" may not apply in certain situations. Then list three situations where it would not apply.

I'll start you off:

1. You watch as your friend steps in dog poo, grimaces with disgust, tries to wipe it off his shoe, and stinks to high heaven. Do you need to step in the dog poo yourself to decide whether stepping in dog poo is good or bad?

2. You watch in horror as a pedestrian is hit by a car. As an ambulance comes to pick him up, do you feel the need to throw yourself in front of an oncoming car to know whether getting hit by a car is good or bad?

I'm sure you can come up with three more quite easily.

What kind of organization would try to convince you that you must experience a bad situation yourself to know whether it's bad?

Glam

<<Think about how "you must experience it to believe it" may not apply in certain situations. Then list three situations where it would not apply.

I'll start you off:

1. You watch as your friend steps in dog poo, grimaces with disgust, tries to wipe it off his shoe, and stinks to high heaven. Do you need to step in the dog poo yourself to decide whether stepping in dog poo is good or bad?>>

Yup, he probably does.

<<2. You watch in horror as a pedestrian is hit by a car. As an ambulance comes to pick him up, do you feel the need to throw yourself in front of an oncoming car to know whether getting hit by a car is good or bad?>>

<Sigh> I just had a fleeting mind picture of a Landmark "pusher" doing just exactly that. Ahhhhhhhhh, how pleasant. I wonder if Landmark would allow me to I be a facilitator in that regard? I would be happy to lend a helping hand, ah, er, ...push.


<<What kind of organization would try to convince you that you must experience a bad situation yourself to know whether it's bad?>>

Obviously ones that like their memebers to smear themselves in dog poo and then jump in front of moving automobiles.

There's something vaguely Freudian about that, but I'm too tired to think that hard.

CNFT

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I think your friend is forgetting to make a distinction between the physical realm and the mind realm. What lives in the physical realm is very much real - regardless of what anyone tells you. Try defying gravity with your mind, or keep telling yourself that you can do it - can you really do it?

As someone who has personally been at the recieving end of Landmark coaching on illness, I can safely assure you that the coaching did not stop after i was diagnosed with a long term "Physical" illness. Landmark staff and leaders do not break illnesses into physcial and mental, it is just illness! Interestingly enough after I stopped listening to the coaching and started listening to my doctor I got well and am still well!

Is the illness in my mind like I was coached on repeatedly - No it is not. Did i get more sick while I was working on the coaching I received - Yes because I got stressed and was not doing what I needed to do to get well.

I believe that even some "mental" illnesses are not created. Yes there are those people who talk them selves into being sick. but there are people who suffer from depression which they need medical help to resolve!