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roveberg
I throw the challenge out there for anyone to convincingly argue that any of the cases online fall under anything other than those categories I mentioned.

You certainly mean You and your coach or coaches, don't you? I doubt you could withstand the truth and sound logic very long without your coaches. My ex tried very hard to convince me, and she used all the tactics she mastered so well, including love bombing and guilt. What could you actually do to me that she didn't try yet?

Are you going to make me fall in love with you and then kick me out of your life if I don't want to join the Landmark cult? And make me feel guilty for running a racket? And say that I'm responsible for loosing my relationship with you? No. That won't work. And Landmark is responsible for creating the problem.

Landmark is the worst thing that happened to your life, you just don't know it yet. Try to tell your coach you don't need coaching anymore just for fun. You will soon realize how dependant you have become.

And please, stop enrolling 8 or 12 yo kids into this cult. IMHO, this is criminal.


Michael D

One post... no response since. Why do we bother with these obvious LC drones that pop up with a "recruitment" post then disappear???

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Glen
One post... no response since. Why do we bother with these obvious LC drones that pop up with a "recruitment" post then disappear???

On first thought, I think this could be a very interesting debate. Because Landmarkians are all alike and they take coaching when in difficulty, it would be like a battle between us (science, logic, education) against them (obscurism, cult, manipulation). I'm sure they would run out of arguments soon enough, but of course, they would retreat inside their closed system of logic saying that we are not coachable and running rackets. On second thought, maybe your right. This could be a waste of time. I waste 8 months arguing with my ex and I wasn't able to make a difference.

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Glen
One post... no response since. Why do we bother with these obvious LC drones that pop up with a "recruitment" post then disappear???

Maybe we're convincing 'em? Or maybe they're all the same person under different names, trying to create the illusion of a groundswell of support -- if any of them posted more than once, it'd be too obvious that they all have the same IP ;) .

I'd still love to have an answer for why he (or she) cares so much. Having been indoctrinated with this caca as a child, my understanding is that such an emotional response suggests a person who does not have confidence in their own view (that's what my mother would tell me anyway, if I'd ever get upset about things she would do -- that and a whole host of other Landmark type platitudes such as "You cannot change other people, you can only change how you respond to them" and "Only you can make you unhappy" and "No one has the power to make you feel anything" and "Love and hate are the same emotion expressed in different contexts" and [list platitude number 137])

I opened this thread 5 days ago, and have been too busy since to get back on, but was interested to read everyone's replies.

I'd like to respond to each person, and I'm sure it will take some time, that I don't have right now.

Everyone's point of view is valid, and I'm not out to go toe-to-toe with anyone. So far I hear varied angles on the same argument, but overall what I'm getting is that people feel really burned in some way! Especially the former Staff.

My GOD guys, you're STAFF!!! I'm almost speechless - my listening of Staff is pretty high. You people put yourselves in a position which said "Yes I'm here for training and developing, I want you to call me on my shit, on who I SAID I am going to be, and I will be responsible for my [u:00f840e159]own[/u:00f840e159] experience here, and what I'm out to accomplish in the world, and with my family and friends". Clearly somewhere along the way something took a left turn, you had a thought, and acted on it.

You can't tell me that all the training is bullshit. This is stuff from Zen Buddhism and famous philosophers. Do you still use any of the technology? You can't tell me you've reverted to being the significant, righteous assholes you used to be. Please tell me you're still causing incredible communication in your family and friends, and playing big games in the world, and being really GREAT with each and every person you come across.

Another point. Everyone here is coming at this from a WIN / LOSE perspective. For us to gain such amazing benefits Landmark must be losing money somewhere, or only just scraping by.
Or they're rolling in money, and spending it on fast cars, women and cocaine, and living in million-dollar mansions. And everyone who has anything to do with Landmark is used, abused and thrown away.

I thought about this for months into my involvement with the company. It was just as I became a Course Supervisor that I decided:

"Screw it - I cannot deny the difference this work has made in my life and the lives of those around me: let's have it be WIN / WIN.

"Yeh they charge $$$ for their product, and people give willingly (ie. no-one puts a gun to your head) of their time to have this work continue in the world, and it just wouldn't work if there weren't People Who Assist...

"AND... this stuff really WORKS!! And I'm going to take full advantage of it.

"I'm going to be the best son I can be for my parents, the most supportive boyfriend, the best mate you could possibly have, the most effective employee, and someone who is CLEAR that they make a difference in others' lives."

WIN / WIN, I know, is a weird concept for most of you. Here's the thing: this technology isn't just about learning word processing, or how to balance a cheque book, its about your LIFE - something that most of us finds pretty important to us, I would guess, considering how damn significant most of you here are about yours - and any process that involves taking on your LIFE is going to involve the whole gamut of emotion and putting something at stake.

I've been through countless Landmark Forums, and every single one I can honestly say is a fun, crazy, thought-provoking, adventure, and in my clearing as an Introduction Leader and Course Supervisor, I make damn sure none of my guests or participants experience anything LESS than, at very least, an amazing experience, and if they never have anything to do with Landmark again they have at least put their foot down and taken a stand for their own life and that of those around them.

All the rest of your cynics can keep your rackets in existence, and sit on these forums gathering agreement with each other about why it doesnt work, and how bad the Landmark Enterprise is... for you life is out to "get" you, and you'll do anything to make sure it doesn't burn you.

Only now you're just *enlightened*, burned cynics.

----

Former Staff: I'd be interested to talk more to any Staff. No matter what your CURRENT idea of Landmark is, I have high listening for you, and would be priveledged to have a chat, if you would be willing.

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NO-ONE has coached me to come on here, this is my own personal research and discussion. I'm actually breaching policy as technically I'm communicating with the media.

roveberg:

Sounds like you are in major denial about what has been said here and per your training are attempting to blame everyone, but of course not Landmark.

Though you may not be "coached" much of your response is the same old Landmark sing-song rhetoric, filled with their verbiage.

Apparently you intend to ignore the information contained within research, news reports and lawsuits about Landmark, EST and its owners.

OK, but don't try to pass that non-response off as critical and/or independent thinking. It rather seems to be a reflection of your Landmark indoctrination/training.

hello roveberg,

thanks for your posts. Always interesting to hear a voice from the inside. Just to let you know, I did the Curriculum + CAP and CPP. My involvement with LE lasted about 2 years in total.

My time at LE can be summed up in two simple sentences:

1. The technology doesn’t work.
2. Ultimately, the ONLY thing that matters is registration.

In my two years I happen to have experienced what I consider to be brainwashing, cult manipulation, humiliation, sleep deprivation, nightmares, and serious psychological anguish. But all these things have subsided since leaving the organization (in 2003). What’s left are the sentences mentioned above.

You’re right, the training is not ALL bullshit. The practical application of Zen Buddhism was indeed interesting. But it’s a mirage. None of it holds up outside of the center. That’s why I (and you) kept going back for more. At the end, the very concepts that LE holds so dearly: inspiration, joy, self-expression, I lost them all in pursuit of ever more registrations. I believed registration was the BEST way to continue transformation (as taught so vehemently over an over again). I was dead wrong.

You are clearly bright and “on the court”, working to make the world (or yourself) a better place. But, when I read your loaded cult-like language I can only think:

I’M SO GLAD I’M OUT !!!!!

Dutch

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You can't tell me you've reverted to being the significant, righteous assholes you used to be.

That statement is priceless.

“You are all so wrong but I am so right.”

“I am so right because only I can judge myself.”

“If I judge my own judgment, I won’t lose.”

“Since I won’t lose, I win.”

Hsuchi

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roveberg
WIN / WIN, I know, is a weird concept for most of you. Here's the thing: this technology isn't just about learning word processing, or how to balance a cheque book, its about your LIFE - .

Expert manipulators (that's what landmark is all about - manipulation peoples mind using expert techniques) can easily make you believe that you are in a WIN-WIN situation, but in fact you are in a WIN-LOOSE situation and you just don't know it. What you loose is your critical thinking and your freedom since you cannot escape the closed system of logic you've been put in. This serves very well Landmark's hidden agenda which is to make you a deployable agent (this is what call "What you don't know that Landmark doesn't ant you to know ... and you don't even want to know or even listen". So, it's OK if it suits you well. The problem we are all facing here is to see that you keep enrolling more and more people using deception and trickery. You even do it to kids!!! My ex wanted me and my kids to join Landmark. She had "objectives" to fill because she wants to be a seminar leader (she needs to enroll 31 people before she can reach that level). Do you really think I will let my family become victim of that cult?

So if you give me this WIN-WIN stuff, it's not going to work with me, and we will continue to argue for the rest of our lives. Landmark creates that logical problem, Landmark make you become dependant and landmark make deployable agents out of you to recruit more and more people. And you think you have a great life?!

To finish up, don't you realize we are not coachable? So why waste your time on us? There will always be those who are pro-Landmark and those who opposes it fiercely. Where it is supposed to bring love and friendship among people, it brings conflict and perhaps even open war. So, in my mind, it is a destructive cult. Just watch you (if yu can). You are being so righteous!!! I guess you need more coaching. As you know, there is a price to pay for wanting to be so righteous. Don't you see the contradiction here and the lack of logic in Landmark??? Of course you can't. Landmark's logic doesn't allow you to. Read this familiar nonsense:

"Give up being right even when you know you are"

So why don't you give up?