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Loela

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I think Leola is trying to "touch, move and inspire" us into participating to Landmark because of all the good it brings to people despite some minor drawbacks she said she experienced (as if it was only the "enrolling" part).

LOL. Thanks for the chuckle. I don't blame you for saying that one bit but seriously, I'm NOT an LE plant here to suck you into the vortex.
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Thanks for your understanding and your response. I had to know for sure. My LE friend used to tell me all the time "Landmark is a gift, but you don't like the package". I just felt your message was sounding a bit like that. Great post!

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Loela
You are right about the past but not about now. LE did get me for about three years. For about three years I sucked it all up and spent about $1,400 for all the trouble it was worth.

how could anyone have taken three years' worth of courses in Landmark and have spent only $1400?

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Maggie
ConcernedFriend,

Like all cults, the inductee will eventually "shun" and separate from those that do not adopt the same philosophy.

Therefore, if she doesn't get the hell outa LE, she will most probably eventually leave the band.

I'm sure that you're right.

The singer in my band has not badgered me about Landmark. She invited me to an introduction a year ago and not again until recently. If it weren't for my experience in Lifespring I might not be concerned at all about her participation in Landmark. But from the beginning I knew that if she got deeper and deeper into Landmark then eventually there would be a point at which being in my band would be impossible, one way or another. She hasn't insisted that I do Landmark as a condition of her being in the band, and I don't think she will, maybe in part because I told her my Lifespring story long before she got involved with Landmark. But yesterday she told me that her schedule has changed a lot since we spoke two weeks ago. She's working six days a week and she's not sure whether she can do a gig and the needed rehearsal a month from now. She said that she would get back to me next week. This is going to come to head very soon. I imagine that she will tell me that she can't do the gig, or if she agrees to do the gig and rehearsal that when the time comes she will cancel due to activities with Landmark. When that happens I will say to her "It seems to me that you are currently unable to be in the band."

Maybe at that point she will realize just what she is doing. It was a single incident somewhat like that in which I saw what I was doing in Lifespring. See [board.culteducation.com] for the details.

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Loela
When I said "people just have to have the experience" I'm talking about people who [u:54d3b75ede]choose[/u:54d3b75ede] to go through with a course of action rather than take other people's good sound advice and/or concerns to heart. I wasn't talking about experiences people have that are beyond their control... like dying.

you and I may different definitions of what constitutes "choice". in much the same way that Landmark has a wider definition of choice than that used by most people, I have a narrower definition.

up until the age of 18 I reacted and never acted. even when I rebelled, I reacted and did so unconsciously. this choice, which involved deciding not to act in a suicidal or homicidal way but to make the best of the options available to me, got followed up by my getting commited to a mental institution.

while in the mental institution I got a lot of cognitive dissonance around the idea of responsibility and "choosing". when questioned, the employees of the institution denied that they had any choice or free will to, for example, work at an institution which routinely brutalized human beings, while at the same time saying that I had absolute power over my own actions. while at the same time preventing us from leaving the ward. total responsiblity and yet that would only give us plastic knives and forks.

(I also heard the "there are no victims, only volunteers" speech from my father via his brother and/or from the brother himself.)

not that time, but during the my second stay in a mental institution, one guard tried to browbeat an inmate into admitting that she chosen to get put in there. to her credit, she won the debate.

in a way, though, I did agree with them that they had no power over themselves or any responsiblity, because, genuinely, they did seem to act unconsciously.

I just don't see that kind of behavior as very unusual.

still, I remained unprepared, even after having read books on cults, thought reform/conversion, for how my sister changed so drastically after taking Landmark. I had even experienced this and still did. I had never seen the whole experience of a person I already knew, from outside.

I knew that conversions of that kind could happen, just didn't know that it could happen to an experienced, savvy adult who had never shown any large affiliation to any ideology before.

given her circumstances, trying to save the relationship between herself and her boyfriend, I can justify what happened, still, that doesn't make what happened to her all that unusual. every LGAT course will have particpants who went in to save their relationship.

so... choice.

we mean different things here.

also, choices (both my kind or your kind) can end in death. you just can't foretell the death. if we could predict the future, fortune tellers would have no work.

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Addictions like smoking or alcohol can't be cured by throwing away the cigarettes or dumping out the alcohol.

sometimes they can. demonstrating that you will risk physical violence from the person with the addiction in order can demonstrate that you really care, rather than just saying you do. the same with an emergency bus trip.

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If a person doesn't want to change they won't until they decide it's necessary to. In some cases all we can do is hope for the best, pray, and try to be there when the opportunity to be supportive presents itself.

that, too, sounds almost word-for-word like what one of my cousins said in an e-mail in regards to my sister. to me that translates to doing nothing. you'd always hope for the best, wouldn't you? you'd do that anyway. so it translates to no action.

given how weird she got after the advanced course and how her relationship with her boyfriend continued, I regret having bowed to peer pressure.

granted, my family swarmed on me and stopped me from what they regarded as a bad choice in my life. what moral you can draw from this, I don't know.

I don't find that the suggestive questioning very useful to me. that kind of verbal rat through the maze techique I can see coming a long ways off.

my uncle who spent twenty years working with est/Forum/Landmark tried it and my other uncle who took a course during his workplace both attempted that. I eventually learned to anticipate and circumvent that particular technique. I consider it a form of bullying.

once when my friend (whose apartment I had mentioned going to in a previous post) had some sort of addiction I remember telling her that I loved her no matter whether she quit or not. that sunk in, maybe. she did eventually quit, as far as I know.

Yesterday I received a phone message from my singer telling me that she has no time available to prepare for the gig at the end of June so she won't be able to do the gig. It looks like things are coming to a head very quickly.

Acid Reindeer, you're right. I spent $1400 over a 26-month period. I was rounding it up. I refused to zip right through the entire curriculum at the speed Landmark usually requires so I spent less money over a longer period of time than the usual LE participant.

Regarding choices...you said:

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while in the mental institution I got a lot of cognitive dissonance around the idea of responsibility and "choosing". when questioned, the employees of the institution denied that they had any choice or free will to, for example, work at an institution which routinely brutalized human beings, while at the same time saying that I had absolute power over my own actions. while at the same time preventing us from leaving the ward. total responsiblity and yet that would only give us plastic knives and forks.

Unless the employees were forced to work there you're right, they could choose to leave.

Of course there are also those "choices" people make as the result of consequences, employment requirements, etc. that one must make just because they must. Your situation was different than the employee's situation. Once committed maybe you no longer had the choice to leave. You had choices but they were limited by the fact that you could not leave the ward, they were limited by facility rules, etc. In that case yeah, you would still try to make the best choices knowing that all the available choices were less than desirable.

You also said:

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not that time, but during the my second stay in a mental institution, one guard tried to browbeat an inmate into admitting that she chosen to get put in there. to her credit, she won the debate.

She probably didn't choose to be put there but maybe she chose to not be aware of the consequences of her actions and that's why she ended up there?

Choice doesn't always mean the same thing as free will.

I still firmly believe that for most of us, behaviors and addictions are best changed when we make a personal commitment to make it happen (and when we are not limited to or controlled by other circumstances such as commitment, incarceration, employment, health issues, etc.)

How can I get my boyfriend to stop smoking? It drives me crazy that he knows it's so unhealthy but won't stop. He says he has to have an addiction and for now smoking is it. He is an alcoholic who went through rehab a couple of times at the begging and insistence of his family, etc., but it didn't 'take' until he got so disgusted with himself he simply stopped drinking one day cold-turkey, no AA, nothing. He was the kind of alcoholic who drank until he passed out. No one was there to tell him to stop. He did it on his own and suffered through withdrawal alone. I didn't know him when he went through that but I admire his strength and tenacity when he tells the story.

Sooo, I want him to stop smoking. I have made that crystal clear. I have teased him, begged him, prayed for him and have kept completely quiet on that topic. I have noticed that when I stop talking about it he will sometimes say, "this is a nasty habit and I should quit." Smoking is his [i:2e2828909f]choice[/i:2e2828909f].... and no matter what I say or do that's how he is right now. My choices are to accept him the way he is, hope and dream that he will decide to quit, try to change him... or ?

Any other ideas?

[b:2e2828909f]Note to Concernedfriend[/b:2e2828909f], at work we had to participate a LGAT seminar called "Act One." One of the principles we are expected to follow at work is 'presume innocence.' Is it too late to do that in your case? Maybe she is stressed and feels the kindest and most ethical thing to do is to back out now? Can you give her the benefit of the doubt, or do you feel like she is jerking you around and playing games. Maybe there is stuff going on that you don't know about in her world? Presuming innocence would allow you to continue watching the situation unfold in a less personal manner.

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Loela
[b:7f915850ce]Note to Concernedfriend[/b:7f915850ce], at work we had to participate a LGAT seminar called "Act One." One of the principles we are expected to follow at work is 'presume innocence.' Is it too late to do that in your case? Maybe she is stressed and feels the kindest and most ethical thing to do is to back out now? Can you give her the benefit of the doubt, or do you feel like she is jerking you around and playing games. Maybe there is stuff going on that you don't know about in her world? Presuming innocence would allow you to continue watching the situation unfold in a less personal manner.

Thank you for your suggestions. I do not think that my singer is jerking me around. And, despite my disappointment about what has happened, I find that I'm not angry about it, maybe because I've seen it coming since she began her involvement with Landmark a year ago. I intend to reflect to her the consequences of her choices ("It appears that you are unavailable to be in the group") and to let her know that I am willing to listen if she needs to talk. I will also ask her probing questions ("So have you decided to not have a career as a singer?").

That sounds like a good idea. Asking probing questions should make it easier for her to open up and be 'authentic' with you (sorry, all this lingo is coming back to me). Then if there is an issue she will sense the need to be 'complete' with you and will take the steps to make it happen. Then maybe you can carry on an honest, genuine conversation and see where it goes. Regardless of the outcome, at least you will know in your heart that you took the risk of trying rather than doing nothing.

You sound like a good friend.

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Loela

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not that time, but during the my second stay in a mental institution, one guard tried to browbeat an inmate into admitting that she chosen to get put in there. to her credit, she won the debate.

She probably didn't choose to be put there but maybe she chose to not be aware of the consequences of her actions and that's why she ended up there?

my definition of choice comes down to the selection of courses of action.

saying she chose (unconsciously) to not know the outcome of her action, that to me makes it sound as if you have internalized more of Landmark thought processes than you may have acknowledged.

to clarify, I will explain what she had said happened:

a police officer, had pulled her over on a rural road and taken her back to the station overnight. I don't know if she had broken the law, but then that doesn't matter, as the cop could have lied and said she had done.

she got traumatized by the whole experience and got put in the institution as a result. whether she got transferred direct from lock-up or some time afterwards, I don't know or can't remember. she may not have specifed.

I remember the guard's argument as going that she had chosen to get pulled over by the cop and therefore the chain of events leading to her getting locked up.

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Smoking is his [i:eea96ad6d3]choice[/i:eea96ad6d3].... and no matter what I say or do that's how he is right now. My choices are to accept him the way he is, hope and dream that he will decide to quit, try to change him... or ?

Any other ideas?

you could get him on the nicotine patch.

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Loela
That sounds like a good idea. Asking probing questions should make it easier for her to open up and be 'authentic' with you (sorry, all this lingo is coming back to me).

yeah, no kidding. like how you brought up commitment in the previous post.