Leola stated that she first divorced her husband, then met the Forum Leader, then took Landmark.

if you don't respond to what people post on these messageboards as supposed to what you would have liked them to have posted, then you fall into that same error that you don't like, where you ignore the facts and go with what you like to believe. you also can't make a good argument if you take that approach.

Quote
Acid Reindeer
Leola stated that she first divorced her husband, then met the Forum Leader, then took Landmark.

if you don't respond to what people post on these messageboards as supposed to what you would have liked them to have posted, then you fall into that same error that you don't like, where you ignore the facts and go with what you like to believe. you also can't make a good argument if you take that approach.

She gave Landmark credit for her now good relationship with her former husband, but didn't blame Landmark for the broken relationship with the stepson of the Forum leader. Minidov was pretty accurate here, IMO.

my mistake. anyway, you cannot categorize anyone making a statement about LEC as apolgogists or critics, either-or, the world doesn't work that way.

ConcernedFriend,

Like all cults, the inductee will eventually "shun" and separate from those that do not adopt the same philosophy. I was told by my boss that Landmark isn't a cult because they ENCOURAGE you to be closer with your friends and family. Yeah, only if your friends and family agree with the philosophy, go to the sessions and become Forum-bots. If you resist it, you are not part of them, and they do not associate with you.

Therefore, if she doesn't get the hell outa LE, she will most probably eventually leave the band.

I was in a band for years, and I know the dynamics. Maybe you could look for some 'backup' singers who could step in if needed.

GOOD LUCK!

Quote
Acid Reindeer
my mistake. anyway, you cannot categorize anyone making a statement about LEC as apolgogists or critics, either-or, the world doesn't work that way.

The World doesn't work that way, but Landmark and other LGATs do! I bet I'm quite accurate on that one too. I think Leola is trying to "touch, move and inspire" us into participating to Landmark because of all the good it brings to people despite some minor drawbacks she said she experienced (as if it was only the "enrolling" part). Notice how subtly she is trying to convince us that Landmark is a positive experience. Once in a while we see this kind of "hit and run" on this forum from participants who are "boosters" of LGATs. They hit, make their case and disappear.

It's just a hunch.

so you have decided to do that thing where, when it comes to your particular interest or topic, the rules don't apply.

Quote

I think Leola is trying to "touch, move and inspire" us into participating to Landmark because of all the good it brings to people despite some minor drawbacks she said she experienced (as if it was only the "enrolling" part).

LOL. Thanks for the chuckle. I don't blame you for saying that one bit but seriously, I'm NOT an LE plant here to suck you into the vortex.

You are right about the past but not about now. LE did get me for about three years. For about three years I sucked it all up and spent about $1,400 for all the trouble it was worth. I was sincere yesterday. I do think it was a good thing at the time and I do think that overall it had a positive influence [i:92776c7683]at the time[/i:92776c7683]. After awhile I started feeling differently.

What pushed me over the edge was the two things which happened during the final 8 months of my relationship with LE. As background info, I had taken Toastmasters in the past and I understand how difficult it can be to overcome the fear of speaking in public. Soooo, I was invited to the LE Communication course (can't remember the name of the first one) on the pretense that the speaker was working on overcoming her fear of public speaking. Surprise surprise, of course she wasn't and as soon as I got there I knew I had made a mistake. After the intro they started calling me at least once but often 2-4 times a month trying to get me to enroll. No matter how many times I explained that the ONLY reason I attended the intro was to support to the fledgling speaker they didn't listen. Even when I said I thought it was rude and pushy to be calling more than once a month they didn't stop calling.

So I stopped answering my phone when I could see on caller ID who it was. Then one night my son forgot and answered the phone. When we got to the part where they asked, "And can't you see what your probable almost certain future is" I said, "Yes and I'm really excited about it because this is the last call I am ever going to receive from you people. And you Karen are going to make that happen!!"

She got mad at me but did make it happen. After that call I received some mail (offering the course at reduced prices!) and a couple of phone calls from the Seattle Center.

Another aspect of that experience was the "innocent" comment they kept on making about being mere volunteers. That's pure baloney. When a person has to [u:92776c7683]pay LE[/u:92776c7683] $2,000 to be on the TMLP to make these stupid phone calls they are [u:92776c7683]not[/u:92776c7683] volunteers and they DO have a stake in the outcome of the conversation. Not only do they need to get people to sign up for the course, they need to make sure there will be new blood enrolling in the TMLP when their year term expires. It makes me angry that [i:92776c7683]people give LE money to do LE's marketing[/i:92776c7683]. LE makes money hand over fist with that method. I'd love to know LE's net worth.

About that same time a LE 'friend' had started telling me it was time for me to enroll in the Wisdom course which costs $2,000 and I needed to attend an intro the next week. My son was in his senior year of HS and I knew I was going to be helping him through college so I was trying to reduce my bills... like paying off my car. I stilled owed $5,000 but I knew with effort I could do it before school started. I explained that to her but she called again and during the course of that conversation she said the usual LE thing like, "What if you run across $1,000?" I said, "I'd use it to pay down my loan. " She wouldn't give up!! ARGH!! So finally I said, "Thanks but I'd rather have sex with my new boyfriend than attend an intro." She got the message and that was the end except for than the mailings.

Since I'm on a roll now there is one other thing that I'm still just plain angry about. I got tired of spending the money so I started "assisting." I assisted at a LF just one time. In our pre-meeting they said, "You are responsible for your health and well-being." But when I volunteered they made it so I couldn't even get 5 hours of sleep a night over a three day period. When I said I needed to go home early to sleep they said things like, "You signed up for this and you can't go. Get off it. What is your problem. If you'd just get your mind of sleep you wouldn't need it." etc. Needless to say it wasn't worth it and bottom line... when volunteers aren't allowed to get enough sleep they cannot be in charge of their health and well-being. It's a total contradiction (and they also deny deliberately forcing participants to get very little sleep). That's one of the reasons I decided it was a cult.

In the end it felt like no matter what I did LE was always going to make it be 'my fault.' They made me feel like I had to prove myself. Very negative and destructive in the long run.... that's why yesterday I described leaving LE as 'jumping off the LE merry-go-round.'

Sorry this is so long. I do feel better having shared this stuff with you.

[b:2ab88f8a3b]Acid Reindeer[/b:2ab88f8a3b],

When I said "people just have to have the experience" I'm talking about people who [u:2ab88f8a3b]choose[/u:2ab88f8a3b] to go through with a course of action rather than take other people's good sound advice and/or concerns to heart. I wasn't talking about experiences people have that are beyond their control... like dying. Addictions like smoking or alcohol can't be cured by throwing away the cigarettes or dumping out the alcohol. If a person doesn't want to change they won't until they decide it's necessary to. In some cases all we can do is hope for the best, pray, and try to be there when the opportunity to be supportive presents itself.

My dad would lecture me 'till the cow went over the moon' but I still did what I wanted to do, especially when I was a teenager. Sometimes just to piss him off. Now that I'm at the other end I have more sympathy for my father. I also remember I hated being lectured so when speaking with my son I try to ask questions that will get him to think about stuff like possible consequences rather than lecturing. We have a great relationship but in his eyes I'll always be mom the parent.

When something comes up and after asking all the probing 'I hope you have thought this out' type of questions I just say, "I love you, I'm thinking about you, and I hope you make a wise choice." He was dealing marajuana for awhile to help pay for college expenses and I was just plain scared. Last week he said he gave it up because he got scared and decided it was too dangerous. As his mom all I could say was, "Whew... I am happy to hear that!"

I like this discussion very much. I think it is great for everybody having serious doubts about or feeling destructed by Landmark to have people like Midonov who reject any positive statements about it. But in the back of the mind of people who have been involved (like myself) there is always something like: If I'm honest I had also some positive results from it.


So what to do ... what might help is to convince people that they can get the same results from a decent psychotherapy whatever. I would very much like to have this discussion, if anyone is interested.

Quote
ClausDIa
I like this discussion very much. I think it is great for everybody having serious doubts about or feeling destructed by Landmark to have people like Midonov who reject any positive statements about it. But in the back of the mind of people who have been involved (like myself) there is always something like: If I'm honest I had also some positive results from it.


So what to do ... what might help is to convince people that they can get the same results from a decent psychotherapy whatever. I would very much like to have this discussion, if anyone is interested.

We always have some positive results even from bad experiences. This is called growing! It doesn't mean we should look for trouble deliberately. We can also grow in a healthy environment.