Ok, I've been dating this girl for about two months.. She's a real sweetheart .. and we have great chemistry .. However, she told me early on that she was always busy on Monday evenings because of this self-improvement seminar that she was taking .. I didn't think much of it. I've attended group seminars at work and once purchased some Anthony Robbins CDs that I thought had some interesting insight .. Anyway, she invites me to attend one of her seminars .. It was part-Oprahesque with people divulging to total strangers very intimate and personal details of their lives ... including stories of abusive relationships and childhood sex abuse. The vibe I got from the lecturer and from the room in general was almost exactly the same as I experienced while attending multi-level marketing seminars (especially w/ the upbeat tone and the hard-sell)... It was a bit creepy, and I told my friend, that while I'm always up for self-improvement and self-examination, this environment was not for me ..

Anyway, I haven't been able to see her this last week because she is attending these day-long sessions for which she had to take personal days from work .. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tues. From what I can figure she completed the 3-day Forum and is doing the Forum in Action seminars on Monday. Next up, I guess, is the Advanced Course and then the SELP.. There have also been other weekends where she's been committed to Landmark events.. I think she was serving as a volunteer of some sort..

My immediate concerns were:

1) What type of educational program requires successive 16 hour days of lectures? Is this healthy?

2) Why might you be volunteering for a for-profit organization?

3) Am I dedecting a premium a premium placed upon recruiting over the concerns of the participants?

From my last conversation, I really think she is drinking the Kool-Aid.. I refused to go to the graduation, but I know she is inviting others ... I don't know of any therapist that pressures his/her clients to bring her new referrals.

Anyway, my question is this:

What is the best way to discuss my concerns? I don't want want to back her into a corner and put her too much on the defensive, but at the same time I know she is going to have defenses to every concern I bring up. I have printed some articles, personal stories and discussion threads that I think she would be open to reading. But, considering the trauma to which she may have been exposed, would it be productive to have her read highly critical articles so soon after the had finished the Forum?

I think I'm going to ask her that, having completed the Forum, she should take a month or so off, before deciding as to whether she should move ahead with the Advanced Class.. Hopefully, after a month, she'll decide she doesn't need any more of this stuff...

I'm still trying to organize my thoughts and concerns for when I next see her next (which is tomorow), and thank you in advance to anyone who responds to this.

Oh boy, do I know the feeling. Just check out my posts. Here is a site link that may be a companion to this site:

www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8080/forum1.htm

I found it very helpful in understanding the LE issues better.
Remember you are among friends here. We are all here for the same or similar purpose.

Good luck and welcome.


foodguypdx

Hi Trooper,

Here are some answers to your questions:

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1) What type of educational program requires successive 16 hour days of lectures? Is this healthy?

Landmark is not a state recognised educational programme, they use the term education because it hooks people. They do it over 16 hours officially so people dont have to take time off work (this is the line fed to participants) but having looked into it further it has a big impact on your ability to think critically and with out that you take on their views very easily and dogmatically (you will fight anyone who disagrees with their view)

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2) Why might you be volunteering for a for-profit organization?

Landmark promote "assisting" as a programme to develop your landmark training day by day. Assisting is of course volunteering and landmark can not run with out volunteers. Volunteers are used in the offices and during programmes. Landmark makes more money having volunteers than paying staff!! and what staff they do have in offices (not course leaders) get paid just above legally minimum wages!

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3) Am I dedecting a premium a premium placed upon recruiting over the concerns of the participants?

Landmark would say no, the concerns of the participants supposedly would come first but in reality every leads to getting participants to get people along to the introduction and in fact one of the measures that courses leaders have to see if they are successfull is how many guests turn up

In discussing your concerns with your girlfriend you will have to be very careful, pushing to much of a negative view is going to make her angry and defensive and she will probably ask for coaching from the staff on how to deal with you ... asking her to take a break may be helpful particularly if she is not assisting, but dont be surprised if she says no.

by the sounds of it if she has done a course that is four days long she has already done the advanced course, the landmark forum is three days and one night. advanced is four days and one night.

You mention she drinks cool aid which i suspect is an energy drink (sorry we dont have it here) this is common amoung participants, while working for LEC i was drinking four or five cans of v a day (v is a strong energy drink here) Drinking this actually helps landmark get a hook because you think you are alert and with it when in fact you are awake because of energy drinks your brain is mush!

With the written information you have leave it around for her to find try and leave a mix of good and bad so it doesn't look like you are delibritly trying to discredit landmark.

I really appreciate your insight...

I think she just took the 3.5 day forum .. Monday, I believe, was just an evening session and part of the weekly lecture series.. From what I understand, the next steps would be the advanced course, then the the SELP, the ILP and whatever courses she may wish to take.

"Drinking the Kool Aid", BTW, is a euphamism .. it means that she's falling for the message of the cult, just like the people who drank Jim Jone's cyanide-laced "Guyana Kool-Aid."

Thanks for your help..

The landmark forum is usually followed by a ten week seminar called Landmark forum in action then advanced course and then SELP. there are also communication programmes and ILP and wisdom courses. I hope she doesn't get past the forum!

i have never in my life heard the cool aid euphamism guess that comes from living in the middle of nowhere down under :)

Hey trooper,
sorry to hear about your girlfriend. I to dated someone who I though was my soulmate. She seemed to be inteligent, creative, and outgoing. We shared a lot of common intrests. To be truthfull I was even considering proposing to her.
As far as voicing your concerns about LEC, be prepared for her to get very defensive. Also be prepared for the worst. She did after all just re take the Forum, wich means she is still on "the high". To have any hope of reaching her you might want to let a few weeks or a month go by before you say anything negative about LEC. Even then be prepared to lose her. This webside is full of people who have lost loved ones to LEC. Best thing to do is educate yourself about LEC and similar groups and inform people about these advantageus SOB's. :!:

Hi,

My ex-girlfriend was a Landmarkian. I think once they get to the ILP, they are fully endoctrinated and it's too late to intervene. This is where it becomes a cult. They will try to suck you in no matter what, or they'll kick you out of their life.

They just want to "share with you ..." and bla-bla-bla, but the ultimate goal is to endoctrinate you to join their cult. If you protest, you are guilty. Guilty of not trusting her, guilty of running a racket, guilty of creating problems by reading all the bad stuff about Landmark,... etc.

She will say "I just want to make a difference for you ...". When she is at that point, it's too late. Ask her to choose between you and Landmark. She will choose Landmark. It's like a love story, but you always come second. If you don't join her in this cult, she will be "coached" to think that you are not supporting her. The key phrase they will put in her head is "How can you be with someone who doesn't support you?".

I tried to make a difference for my girfriend, but I lost the battle, and because I refused to join her cult, the relationship broke up. And she insisted I was responsible for loosing my relationship with her. I know Landmark was.

Goodluck.

Michael D

Trooper:

I am in the same boat, but mine has already accelerated to the threshhold of ILP. Dude it sucks. I am hoping that a "break" from LE for a month or 2 will result in her coming off of her high to realize what is going on.

I do agree with Michael D...be ready for the worst.

foodguypdx

Thanks for all the responses..

It turns that she has now done the Forum, the lecture series, and now the Advanced Course .. She has volunteered only one evening in three months being involved at Landmark .. She has not brought anyone to a meeting but myself, though she has invited a few others .. She is going to do the SELP in a couple of months and seems to be loking forward to some of the continuing courses, including the "wisdom course" and the intimacy and relationmships course .. She said that she is not going to do the ILP ...

I did share my concerns about Landmark .. and in a way feel bad for having done so shortly after she finished her course...she was really upbeat, and perhaps it was mean on my part to kill her buz .. Throughout the whole conversation, she did have me a bit on the defensive and had answers to many of my concerns... Some had me incredulous i.e. "Landmark participants recruit because they want to spread transformation." "Volunteering adds to the Landmark experience."

Anyway, I said my piece and left it at that .. She seems happy, confident and upbeat.. though I have a feeling that we're on different wavelenghts .. Her life has turned around since joining Landmark .. she has quit smoking, lost weight, and begun pursuing a number of ventures, interests and goals that she had long had on the backburner .. My fear is not how she feels now, but how continued participation w. Landmark and and other Landmark participants is just going to put us in different worlds.. It seems that Landmark in the short term does encourage people to become closer to friends and family, esp. estranged ones .. but in the long run, it seems to create a divide between those who get it and those who don't .. I know I would very nervous for the entire three months she would be doing the SELP..

BTW, who owns and runs Landkark? How much money does Landmark and the owners make? Could Landmark break even if they were to pay their volunteers even a small wage (i.e. $8 - $10 per hour)? Or does using volunteers just simply enlarge their margins?

Thanks All..

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BTW, who owns and runs Landkark? How much money does Landmark and the owners make? Could Landmark break even if they were to pay their volunteers even a small wage (i.e. $8 - $10 per hour)? Or does using volunteers just simply enlarge their margins?

Landmark is owned by the staff, officially none of the staff have received any money from the shares they own with everything being put back into the company.

Officially no one owns more then 4% but I am not sure how accurate this is.

I dont know if Landmark would break even if they paid the volunteers, there are some offiices that are carrying other offices that are running at a loss.

Volunteers must be saving the company a stack of cash so does the fact that they in the main part they pay their office staff just above minimum wage! (of course things may have changed since I was on staff but I doubt it.