Quote
caligari


A person’s characteristics can be seen in their actions. Werner enjoyed adoration and referred to himself sometimes as the source (he also referred to the graduates as his source.) But he put less emphasis on idolatry than enrolling people into the courses. In est/LE enrollment is the creation of the enlightenment of the Training/Forum. It is primary and ahead of anything else. The self-delusional results of the cult techniques are used for sales. When Hubbard was being questioned and shown for his problems, he took a boat into international waters and waited it out. When Werner’s problems were brought into the light, he took his presence out of the organization so that Landmark could continue to enroll/sell and make money. Werner brought in other people like Fernando Flores to retool the est Training into the Forum, Hubbard would never include others in the foundation of his religion. They have different characteristics and goals: Werner’s primary is the sale of false goods and Hubbard’s is probably cult idolatry.

-- Caligari

Yes, perhaps because of ElRon's extended "success" over decades as opposed to Werner Erhard's for far less time. One wonders if Erhard would have become more and more maniacal and delusional had he remained as successful.

You aver above that Werner Erhard left for the good of his ~creation.~ I believe he left out of cowardice rather than pragmatism and had no desire to face the consequences of his past catching up with him and the scrutiny he knew he was in for. The irony cannot be lost that he NEVER took the tenets of his own "philosophy" to heart. Again, perhaps because he was less removed from reality.

What happened between Fernando Flores and Werner Erhard? Any idea?


Ellen

Quote
elena

Quote
caligari


A person’s characteristics can be seen in their actions. Werner enjoyed adoration and referred to himself sometimes as the source (he also referred to the graduates as his source.) But he put less emphasis on idolatry than enrolling people into the courses. In est/LE enrollment is the creation of the enlightenment of the Training/Forum. It is primary and ahead of anything else. The self-delusional results of the cult techniques are used for sales. When Hubbard was being questioned and shown for his problems, he took a boat into international waters and waited it out. When Werner’s problems were brought into the light, he took his presence out of the organization so that Landmark could continue to enroll/sell and make money. Werner brought in other people like Fernando Flores to retool the est Training into the Forum, Hubbard would never include others in the foundation of his religion. They have different characteristics and goals: Werner’s primary is the sale of false goods and Hubbard’s is probably cult idolatry.

-- Caligari

Yes, perhaps because of ElRon's extended "success" over decades as opposed to Werner Erhard's for far less time. One wonders if Erhard would have become more and more maniacal and delusional had he remained as successful.

Mostly likely he would have.

Quote
elena
You aver above that Werner Erhard left for the good of his ~creation.~

I did not intend to imply he left for the “good” of his creation. He left for avarice.

Quote
elena
I believe he left out of cowardice rather than pragmatism and had no desire to face the consequences of his past catching up with him and the scrutiny he knew he was in for.

That probably was part of it. But the greater impetus from what I know of Werner, is he felt he didn’t need to be there to swindle.

Quote
elena
The irony cannot be lost that he NEVER took the tenets of his own "philosophy" to heart. Again, perhaps because he was less removed from reality.

From my knowledge of Werner he was always practical regardless of how convulted and fanciful the ideology he put on members. And he never seemed to feel bound to the tenants of the ideas he bound others to.

Quote
elena
What happened between Fernando Flores and Werner Erhard? Any idea?

Ellen

I don’t know. I left fairly soon after Fernando contributed to the formation of the Forum and started Hermenet. Hermenet was a software company Fernando started for a personal management software (PIM) he created based on his linguistic ideas. It was on the market for awhile in the 80’s. There was a falling out I gather from an article, [www.fastcompany.com] , in Fast Company magazine, but I don’t know the details.

-- Caligari

Hope

Quote

My understanding of the seminar series was that it was part of the Forum: one cannot attend the series without taking the Forum because it was a package deal. I guess then if one participated in est, they could take whatever they wanted to in the "new and improved" LE

Generally this is correct, however graduates of EST can participate in I believe up to four seminar sessions (Out of ten) with out having done the landmark forum (things may have changed since I was on staff). They can not do the advanced course or SELP or the communication courses without having done the Landmark forum.

Quote

Another reason I asked about the series is because my naturopath implied that he was able to attend many courses as a reviewer simply because he was a "professional". While he was taking these courses when I was seeing him as a patient, he told me he was reviewing self-improvement seminars as a professional. He just didn't tell me it was LE. It wasn't till almost 2 years later he told me he had taken everything they offered. Now I know that if he was reviewing, he must have been involved way back, probably even before I met him.

Any one can review any of the courses once they have done them. While on staff I had to review the landmark forum and advanced course and I ended up reviewing most of the courses. (staff and ex staff dont pay for reviewing or doing courses)

There are very few "professionals" that landmark would pay to review the forum unless that professonal was going to write a "landmark is great" review for them

Quote

Our seminar series was so pathetic it was laugh-out-loud funny. One of the Forum volunteers\customer service reps was our series leader and she told us her biggest dream is to become a Forum leader. Her crocodile tears were so poorly executed that many of us couldn't contain ourselves. The sales pitches took up 3/4 of the sessions. Half our group dropped out by session #3. The focus on sales and the poor presentation by this leader was also great ammo for getting my refund, BTW.

All LFIA leaders seem to have the crocodile tears down pat, i wonder if they practice at their seminar leader weekends?

A few years ago landmark made a concious effort to move away from the pressure. HA what this meant is that they talked to every one and said ... accept a No but question it if you can. Landmark pressure sales almost from the word go. I remember my forum in action leader told us the "i am working on being a landmark forum leader" just about everyone in leadership wants that. I remember on a staff weekend conference everyone was asked who was committed to being a landmark forum leader Myself and the regional manager were the only ones who didn't put up our hands.

Quote

A participant in my group who had also attended my Forum was friends with a volunteer who said the leaders and volunteers really caught hell for not recruiting enough people for the Advanced seminar

You would not believe the "hell" they (and I in the past) receive. And this is for all courses! I remember one week when the office was miles from meeting their weekly target, the other staff were away and i was there by myself. the regional manager rang and yelled at me for 25 minutes. I dont think I was inspired to register people but i was sure as hell scared to not do it!

Quote

I must say that it certainly was the biggest bunch of skeptics I've ever seen in one room. The ones who participated the most clearly were plants, as I've read transcripts on pro-Landmark sites that were word-for-word what came out of the mouths of the "stars" in my group.

In New Zealand there are no plants but there are always reviewers and if the person is active or on staff or the such I know sometimes the forum leader will talk to them about participation. When I reviewed I know I was challenged by the course leader to speak up lots.

Quote
sonnie_dee
Hope
<snip>

Any one can review any of the courses once they have done them. While on staff I had to review the landmark forum and advanced course and I ended up reviewing most of the courses. (staff and ex staff dont pay for reviewing or doing courses)

<snip>

Does not paying for courses include ex-staff members from est?

:),

Caligari

Quote

Does not paying for courses include ex-staff members from est?

That I could not answer. It would depend on the contract. I dont believe they do? I know that landmark staff only get the free tuition if they last longer then a year. The majority of staff quit after 5 months. Those that dont usually quit around the 10/11 month mark.

When I was on staff. I was one of the longest serving staff member for our office and that was after I had only been there 14 months!

Quote
sonnie_dee

Quote

Does not paying for courses include ex-staff members from est?

That I could not answer. It would depend on the contract. I dont believe they do? I know that landmark staff only get the free tuition if they last longer then a year. The majority of staff quit after 5 months. Those that dont usually quit around the 10/11 month mark.

When I was on staff. I was one of the longest serving staff member for our office and that was after I had only been there 14 months!

Yes, I doubt it would be available since I was on staff three months or less.

You were in quite some time. Your posts indicate you've come out regaining or retaining your ntelligence and clarity.

-- Caligari

Quote
elena
<snip>
What happened between Fernando Flores and Werner Erhard? Any idea?
Ellen

A tidbit: Fernando Flores is now a Senator in Chile. His website is [www.atinachile.cl] (in spanish) where his interests are promoted. On the site it says (using google translation) "Fernando Flowers is Senator of the Republic, Region of Tarapacá, by period 2002- 2010."

-- Caligari

Quote
caligari

Quote
elena
<snip>
What happened between Fernando Flores and Werner Erhard? Any idea?
Ellen

A tidbit: Fernando Flores is now a Senator in Chile. His website is [www.atinachile.cl] (in spanish) where his interests are promoted. On the site it says (using google translation) "Fernando Flowers is Senator of the Republic, Region of Tarapacá, by period 2002- 2010."

-- Caligari

My vague recollection, and distant memory of whatever I read, seems to be that he was a legitimate scholar of linguistics, semiotics, epistomology, and such-like who was "courted" by Werner Erhard and invited to collaborate in exchange for profit and, fairly quickly into the "partnership," Flores saw what the collarboration meant - i.e., that he and his "work" were being used to bolster the image, "validity," and/or cachet of a sleazy product - and quietly dissolved the agreement and left. Does that seem right? I don't think he said much, publically, did he?


Ellen

Quote
elena

Quote
caligari

Quote
elena
<snip>
What happened between Fernando Flores and Werner Erhard? Any idea?
Ellen

A tidbit: Fernando Flores is now a Senator in Chile. His website is [www.atinachile.cl] (in spanish) where his interests are promoted. On the site it says (using google translation) "Fernando Flowers is Senator of the Republic, Region of Tarapacá, by period 2002- 2010."

-- Caligari

My vague recollection, and distant memory of whatever I read, seems to be that he was a legitimate scholar of linguistics, semiotics, epistomology, and such-like who was "courted" by Werner Erhard and invited to collaborate in exchange for profit and, fairly quickly into the "partnership," Flores saw what the collarboration meant - i.e., that he and his "work" were being used to bolster the image, "validity," and/or cachet of a sleazy product - and quietly dissolved the agreement and left. Does that seem right? I don't think he said much, publically, did he?


Ellen

Flores is a scholar and follower of Heidegger. The things that I've read from Flores, translate Heidegger's philosophy into abstractions and methodologies for business and political practice. See Flores' books "Building Trust: In Business, Politics, Relationships, and Life" and "
Disclosing New Worlds: Entrepreneurship, Democratic Action, and the Cultivation of Solidarity" ( [www.amazon.com] )

From wikipedia ( [en.wikipedia.org] ):

Quote

he established his family in Palo Alto and started to work as a researcher of the Computer Science departament at Stanford University where he studied a PhD under the guidance of Hubert Dreyfus, Stuart Dreyfus, John Searle and Ann Markussen.

Hubert Dreyfus also worked on creating the Forum and is a Heidegger scholar. Dreyfus uses some of the language in The Forum in his writing, like "being a stand." See Dreyfus' book "Being-in-the-World: A Commentary on Heidegger's Being and Time, Division I." He teaches philosophy at U.C. Berkeley ( [ist-socrates.berkeley.edu] ). The ideas that Werner put together come not only from Scientology, but from the phenomenological area of philsophy of which Heidegger, Derrida, Sarte are major figures. As it's basis phenomenology has a mystical concept of being and is opposed to rational philosophy.

I think that Flores doesn't openly repudiate est/Landmark because they have a philosophical kinship.

-- Caligari

Quote
caligari


I think that Flores doesn't openly repudiate est/Landmark because they have a philosophical kinship.

-- Caligari

I dunno....maybe I'm a litttle more ~cynical~ or something, but I just suspect there is more to his "silence" than that. After all, there was much fanfare generated and I'll bet lots of Landmarkers were disappointed when he ~disappeared.~ Who would be likely to know? And, more importantly, speak about it? I'll bet there's an interesting angle somewhere that some journalist could investigate. Hmmmmmm.....

Personally, I think everything Werner Erhard touched became "tainted" by the contact, (even the scientology, LOL), and if it were my "work," I'd take some measures to distance myself from the man. I dunno......just thinking out loud, really.



Ellen