Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
midonov123
()
Date: June 19, 2005 08:52PM
Quote
Hope
He named his chair "my problems" and threw it onto his back and dragged it around all over the stage, pretending he was crying and anxious and looking for pity. Then he mocked the entire field of psychology and therapists.
I saw the same thing during an Introduction. I had to assist to the Introduction because my ex-girfriend bursted into tears when I said I didn't really want to (a manipulation technique).
Anyway, I went to the Introduction, saw many nice and smiling people who were all willing to share their new experience with me (half of the attendees where Forum graduates) and I saw that scene where the leader would take a chair on his back and mock people who have problems ... and all that. I didn't like it.
But what is most surprising was for me to ear private testimonies from graduates (in private, after the show) saying that, indeed, this is like a new kind of therapy, that it is much more effective and much cheaper (!?) that a psychologist, and overall, it's a much better therapy that conventional psychotherapy. I heard that from my ex-girlfriend so many times! She kept telling me that she's been seeking counseling for years and years (psychologists, psychiatrists, antidepressors, etc...) and her life was still not working ok (2 divorces, difficulty at work, bad relationship, intention of committing suicide, etc ...)
Then, 6 years ago, she was "Transformed" by Landmark. And now, she "thinks" she has a great life. Does she? Well, I doubt it. I consider myself a well balanced and successful person in life, and she really screwed up her relationship with me, thanks to Landmark. She is in debt, has no stable job, she's struggling to run her little business that's not working, she looks tired and exhausted, spends hours and hours working for Landmark and trying to recruit new members, …etc
But the most dramatic, she says that if it was not for Landmark, she would probably commit suicide!!! Like Elena said before, she belongs in therapy, and she shouldn't have done the Forum at all. Now, she is totally under the control of that cult (she's now doing the seminar leader program, and has been volunteering for years).
To summarize, Landmarkians keep saying the program is for healthy people and that it doesn't replace conventional therapy, but for many it is being used as a therapy. And it's very dangerous. My first post was about a man who was in the seminar leader program in Toronto that has committed suicide now about 8 mouths ago. She knew him, but she kept saying he didn't commit suicide because of Landmark. Like she used to say about all those who have bad experience following Landmark "That's Their Problem"! So much for love, sharing and compassion.
Michael D.
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
sonnie_dee
()
Date: June 20, 2005 02:45PM
Quote
Landmarkians keep saying the program is for healthy people and that it doesn't replace conventional therapy, but for many it is being used as a therapy. And it's very dangerous. My first post was about a man who was in the seminar leader program in Toronto that has committed suicide now about 8 mouths ago. She knew him, but she kept saying he didn't commit suicide because of Landmark
Landmark uses this as a means of covering themselves, by saying "you are responsible for your wellbeing" and "this programme is for healthy people, the problem is prior to the landmark forum many people would never have even considered therapy and would have considered them selves to be mentally capable.
My question to landmark would be - how can they be responsible for their well being if they dont know what you are going to do to them?
Landmark will never accept responsibility for any "bad" thing that happens. If someone kills themselves, even if they spent most of their in and about landmark, landmark will very quickly distance themselves from them.
They train and berate their leaders and senior volunteers that landmark has never harmed anyone. IF anyone had a mental breakdown whilst participating with Landmark, landmark would claim they had been dishonest on the well being questions on their information forms or had not taken responsibility for their well being.
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
caligari
()
Date: June 20, 2005 04:57PM
Quote
sonnie_dee
<snip>Quote
I haven't taken The Forum and have taken a few sessions of "The Landmark Forum in Action" recently. Some staff members may have a negative view of therapy now. May I ask who was the Forum Leader
Going along to a few sessions of LFIA is not taking it, you would have been asked to move into an introduction after graduates and the Landmark forum leader had all shared but you would not have been there for any real stuff
No, I took four full session from beginning to end (I think 7pm to 10 pm). You can take complete seminar series as a graduate of the est Training. Also, I can take The Forum as a reviewer.
-- Caligari
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
Hope
()
Date: June 21, 2005 06:31AM
Please refresh my memory. Is the LFIA series the Seminar Series, sessions that follow the Forum - those 10 sessions that they tell you are in-depth sessions on topics discussed in the forum, making it sound like you're getting a real bang for your buck????
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
caligari
()
Date: June 21, 2005 06:57AM
Quote
Hope
Please refresh my memory. Is the LFIA series the Seminar Series, sessions that follow the Forum - those 10 sessions that they tell you are in-depth sessions on topics discussed in the forum, making it sound like you're getting a real bang for your buck????
I'm not sure who you're asking. But in case it's me, I'll respond here :)
I had a business office in San Francisco a block away from where the San Francisco Landmark Center was in 2003. Since then I’m no longer located there and I think the Landmark Center office moved several blocks down to around Second Street.
After awhile I became curious if they operated the same way as when I was involved over twenty years ago. So I had a look around the office a couple times. Then I went in the evening and took several sessions of the LFIA series that where happening then. There was one LFIA series that was finishing up form which I think I took session 8-9. The other one I took later and was just starting with new graduates out of The Forum from which I took session 1 (I took three session, I mistakenly said in an earlier post I took four.) I think I heard them mention it is taken after the Forum. I didn't focus on that detail so it didn't leave a strong impression on me. So, yes, my recollection is that LFIA series is taken by graduates after the Forum.
-- Caligari
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
sonnie_dee
()
Date: June 21, 2005 04:07PM
Quote
Please refresh my memory. Is the LFIA series the Seminar Series, sessions that follow the Forum - those 10 sessions that they tell you are in-depth sessions on topics discussed in the forum, making it sound like you're getting a real bang for your buck????
they are one and the same hope ... they still go on about the more for your money too.
Caligari, my apologies I didn't realise you were a graduate of est
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
Hope
()
Date: June 21, 2005 08:18PM
Oh God, Sonnie Dee, money-making PLUS training Forum Leader wannabes was such a turn-off that I couldn't stand it.
My understanding of the seminar series was that it was part of the Forum: one cannot attend the series without taking the Forum because it was a package deal. I guess then if one participated in est, they could take whatever they wanted to in the "new and improved" LE.
Another reason I asked about the series is because my naturopath implied that he was able to attend many courses as a reviewer simply because he was a "professional". While he was taking these courses when I was seeing him as a patient, he told me he was reviewing self-improvement seminars as a professional. He just didn't tell me it was LE. It wasn't till almost 2 years later he told me he had taken everything they offered. Now I know that if he was reviewing, he must have been involved way back, probably even before I met him.
Our seminar series was so pathetic it was laugh-out-loud funny. One of the Forum volunteers\customer service reps was our series leader and she told us her biggest dream is to become a Forum leader. Her crocodile tears were so poorly executed that many of us couldn't contain ourselves. The sales pitches took up 3/4 of the sessions. Half our group dropped out by session #3. The focus on sales and the poor presentation by this leader was also great ammo for getting my refund, BTW.
A participant in my group who had also attended my Forum was friends with a volunteer who said the leaders and volunteers really caught hell for not recruiting enough people for the Advanced seminar. During our Forum, the leader even stated that ours was the toughest audience he ever had - nothing moved us. I must say that it certainly was the biggest bunch of skeptics I've ever seen in one room. The ones who participated the most clearly were plants, as I've read transcripts on pro-Landmark sites that were word-for-word what came out of the mouths of the "stars" in my group.
My understanding of the seminar series was that it was part of the Forum: one cannot attend the series without taking the Forum because it was a package deal. I guess then if one participated in est, they could take whatever they wanted to in the "new and improved" LE.
Another reason I asked about the series is because my naturopath implied that he was able to attend many courses as a reviewer simply because he was a "professional". While he was taking these courses when I was seeing him as a patient, he told me he was reviewing self-improvement seminars as a professional. He just didn't tell me it was LE. It wasn't till almost 2 years later he told me he had taken everything they offered. Now I know that if he was reviewing, he must have been involved way back, probably even before I met him.
Our seminar series was so pathetic it was laugh-out-loud funny. One of the Forum volunteers\customer service reps was our series leader and she told us her biggest dream is to become a Forum leader. Her crocodile tears were so poorly executed that many of us couldn't contain ourselves. The sales pitches took up 3/4 of the sessions. Half our group dropped out by session #3. The focus on sales and the poor presentation by this leader was also great ammo for getting my refund, BTW.
A participant in my group who had also attended my Forum was friends with a volunteer who said the leaders and volunteers really caught hell for not recruiting enough people for the Advanced seminar. During our Forum, the leader even stated that ours was the toughest audience he ever had - nothing moved us. I must say that it certainly was the biggest bunch of skeptics I've ever seen in one room. The ones who participated the most clearly were plants, as I've read transcripts on pro-Landmark sites that were word-for-word what came out of the mouths of the "stars" in my group.
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: June 21, 2005 11:39PM
Quote
caligari
I think profit and selling is primary for Werner, adoration, loyalty and worthsip are secondary. If there was betting on a contest between him and someone else, he'd put money on both.
I'm not too happy about having been in est myself :) But, if
John F. Nash, Jr. ( [nobelprize.org] ) can overcome his state of "paranoid schizophrenia" through reason, someone can certainly relinquish est ideology using rational thinking.
-- Caligari
Werner Erhard displayed all the characteristics of what is sometimes referred to as a human "predator" (sociopath). It's a myth that sociopaths are "troubled," misunderstood, or criminal. They are famously untroubled by their actions. In fact, they look upon their "marks" (~victims~) with contempt and disdain, deserving of being fleeced, conned, or jacked for being so foolishly trusting. They often imagine they are providing a public service (~education~) for those too gullible and too naive to recognize a con. He may well have had money as his prime motivator initially, but that wouldn't explain his fierce devotion to his own "image" after the money had piled up in sufficient quantity. Sociopathy does. Sociopaths consider the whole "predator/prey" thing one big game. They do it for fun. In their impoverished emotional lives, they get a big thrill from "scoring." And the higher the score, the better the narcissistic "image," like some aging Don Juan who still thinks his "conquests" are a sign of superior masculine prowess. And, like an aging Don Juan, he "looks" like nothing so much as a slimey used- ~transformation~ seller to the world outside his devoted following. That's the kicker - all the labor to serve an image that just made it look worse and worse over time - so bad, in fact, his own ~creation~ attempted to distance itself from him. He should have stayed in the used-car lot. At least he could have claimed some ~intergrity~ in that field.
I think a cult involvement can also serve as a great "corrective" - for an individual and for society. The cult phenomenon can and has brought about a general awareness about such things as mind control, codified emotional manipulation, unethical coercion, and predatory institutionalized seduction. The world is grappling today with a killer who may have been desensitized and "trained" by "technology" (a video game). Lt. Col. Dave Grossman will undoubtedly be consulted, as he has "trained" men in the same way. It's about "deployable agents," assassins, and suicide bombers. If we don't get a handle on this type of mental manipulation, it will be at our own peril. I imagine it may be too late, considering the succes our current administration has had with lies, distortion, and propaganda. They would have us as cult-members - made stupid by their tactics and our own colluded blindness and eventually too stupid to find our way out of an ideological morass. Blechhhhh
Ellen
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
caligari
()
Date: June 22, 2005 01:01AM
Quote
sonnie_deeQuote
<snip>
Caligari, my apologies I didn't realise you were a graduate of est
Thanks.
No problemo.
-- Caligari
Landmark’s logic, New Age Medicine and What the Bleep ...
Posted by:
caligari
()
Date: June 22, 2005 01:47AM
Quote
elenaQuote
caligari
I think profit and selling is primary for Werner, adoration, loyalty and worthsip are secondary. If there was betting on a contest between him and someone else, he'd put money on both.
I'm not too happy about having been in est myself :) But, if
John F. Nash, Jr. ( [nobelprize.org] ) can overcome his state of "paranoid schizophrenia" through reason, someone can certainly relinquish est ideology using rational thinking.
-- Caligari
Werner Erhard displayed all the characteristics of what is sometimes referred to as a human "predator" (sociopath). It's a myth that sociopaths are "troubled," misunderstood, or criminal. They are famously untroubled by their actions. In fact, they look upon their "marks" (~victims~) with contempt and disdain, deserving of being fleeced, conned, or jacked for being so foolishly trusting. They often imagine they are providing a public service (~education~) for those too gullible and too naive to recognize a con. He may well have had money as his prime motivator initially, but that wouldn't explain his fierce devotion to his own "image" after the money had piled up in sufficient quantity. Sociopathy does. Sociopaths consider the whole "predator/prey" thing one big game. They do it for fun. In their impoverished emotional lives, they get a big thrill from "scoring." And the higher the score, the better the narcissistic "image," like some aging Don Juan who still thinks his "conquests" are a sign of superior masculine prowess. And, like an aging Don Juan, he "looks" like nothing so much as a slimey used- ~transformation~ seller to the world outside his devoted following. That's the kicker - all the labor to serve an image that just made it look worse and worse over time - so bad, in fact, his own ~creation~ attempted to distance itself from him. He should have stayed in the used-car lot. At least he could have claimed some ~intergrity~ in that field.
I think a cult involvement can also serve as a great "corrective" - for an individual and for society. The cult phenomenon can and has brought about a general awareness about such things as mind control, codified emotional manipulation, unethical coercion, and predatory institutionalized seduction. The world is grappling today with a killer who may have been desensitized and "trained" by "technology" (a video game). Lt. Col. Dave Grossman will undoubtedly be consulted, as he has "trained" men in the same way. It's about "deployable agents," assassins, and suicide bombers. If we don't get a handle on this type of mental manipulation, it will be at our own peril. I imagine it may be too late, considering the succes our current administration has had with lies, distortion, and propaganda. They would have us as cult-members - made stupid by their tactics and our own colluded blindness and eventually too stupid to find our way out of an ideological morass. Blechhhhh
Ellen
A person’s characteristics can be seen in their actions. Werner enjoyed adoration and referred to himself sometimes as the source (he also referred to the graduates as his source.) But he put less emphasis on idolatry than enrolling people into the courses. In est/LE enrollment is the creation of the enlightenment of the Training/Forum. It is primary and ahead of anything else. The self-delusional results of the cult techniques are used for sales. When Hubbard was being questioned and shown for his problems, he took a boat into international waters and waited it out. When Werner’s problems were brought into the light, he took his presence out of the organization so that Landmark could continue to enroll/sell and make money. Werner brought in other people like Fernando Flores to retool the est Training into the Forum, Hubbard would never include others in the foundation of his religion. They have different characteristics and goals: Werner’s primary is the sale of false goods and Hubbard’s is probably cult idolatry.
-- Caligari
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