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caligari


Could you point me to a few of these references?

In the eight years I was heavily involved I never heard one disparging remark about therapists. Werner did have a habit of making off the cuff strident remarks in internal meetings -- so it's not unusual he may have said something. But I never heard of or saw a organizational stand against therapists.

-- Caligari

Here's one. There are lots more....I'll do some digging when I have more time. One I saw not too long ago was by "Coach," (who I presume is positioning his "profession" as an alternative) DONSUL on R&R.

"......For Werner Erhard, the past had always been something to run away from, to render invisible by pretending that it barely even existed. Erhard and est for years advocated a convenient culture of amnesia, which certainly served the needs of so many thousands of his most loyal followers. In their zeal to discover the innocence of enlightenment, they savored his message of 'completing' the past by casting it into a dark abyss. Many of Erhard's followers also cheered est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy for similar reasons. Most forms of therapy have aimed for tranformation by mining the individual's past. Erhard's own experiences in life were reflected in est's formula for achieving transformation by avoiding the past."

"Outrageous Betrayal," Steven Pressman, p. 271




Ellen

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elena

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caligari


Could you point me to a few of these references?

In the eight years I was heavily involved I never heard one disparging remark about therapists. Werner did have a habit of making off the cuff strident remarks in internal meetings -- so it's not unusual he may have said something. But I never heard of or saw a organizational stand against therapists.

-- Caligari

Here's one. There are lots more....I'll do some digging when I have more time. One I saw not too long ago was by "Coach," (who I presume is positioning his "profession" as an alternative) DONSUL on R&R.

"......For Werner Erhard, the past had always been something to run away from, to render invisible by pretending that it barely even existed. Erhard and est for years advocated a convenient culture of amnesia, which certainly served the needs of so many thousands of his most loyal followers. In their zeal to discover the innocence of enlightenment, they savored his message of 'completing' the past by casting it into a dark abyss. Many of Erhard's followers also cheered est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy for similar reasons. Most forms of therapy have aimed for tranformation by mining the individual's past. Erhard's own experiences in life were reflected in est's formula for achieving transformation by avoiding the past."

"Outrageous Betrayal," Steven Pressman, p. 271

Ellen

I read "Outrageous Betrayal" by Pressman about four years ago. While it he did interviews and based information on that (or claims to since no references are provided), much of it is speculative. One example, is Pressman imagines Jack Rosenbergs thoughts while he's on a plane leaving Philadelphia. I find no basis for this passage of "est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy" from my years of invovlement in listening to staff people and participants in est.

-- Caligari

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caligari


I read "Outrageous Betrayal" by Pressman about four years ago. While it he did interviews and based information on that (or claims to since no references are provided), much of it is speculative. One example, is Pressman imagines Jack Rosenbergs thoughts while he's on a plane leaving Philadelphia. I find no basis for this passage of "est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy" from my years of invovlement in listening to staff people and participants in est.

-- Caligari

So even if I went to all the trouble of searching around for citations and typing them out and posted five hundred quotes plus told you my own personal experience, it wouldn't matter or have any effect on your opinion. Thanks, I didn't feel like digging around in all those dusty old books anyway.

Ellen

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elena

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caligari


I read "Outrageous Betrayal" by Pressman about four years ago. While it he did interviews and based information on that (or claims to since no references are provided), much of it is speculative. One example, is Pressman imagines Jack Rosenbergs thoughts while he's on a plane leaving Philadelphia. I find no basis for this passage of "est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy" from my years of invovlement in listening to staff people and participants in est.

-- Caligari

So even if I went to all the trouble of searching around for citations and typing them out and posted five hundred quotes plus told you my own personal experience, it wouldn't matter or have any effect on your opinion. Thanks, I didn't feel like digging around in all those dusty old books anyway.

Ellen

This is one quote from a book that is at least in part speculative. There's no source that Pressman gives for "Many of Erhard's followers also cheered est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy for similar reasons. " He doesn't give a rough number for "many", where he got that information from or any backing. If there's reasonable evidence, I will consider it.

At one event Werner put on I asisted as a driver. The people attending the event that I was driving were psychologists, some or all from U.C. Berkeley. I never heard the organization disdain therapists and I assisted in a event where they were courted.

Werner's focus was/is in selling est/LE courses. I don't think he cared much who he sold to and what they did. A different purpose than L. Ron Hubbard's determining a religion.

-- Caligari

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caligari

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elena

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caligari


I read "Outrageous Betrayal" by Pressman about four years ago. While it he did interviews and based information on that (or claims to since no references are provided), much of it is speculative. One example, is Pressman imagines Jack Rosenbergs thoughts while he's on a plane leaving Philadelphia. I find no basis for this passage of "est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy" from my years of invovlement in listening to staff people and participants in est.

-- Caligari

So even if I went to all the trouble of searching around for citations and typing them out and posted five hundred quotes plus told you my own personal experience, it wouldn't matter or have any effect on your opinion. Thanks, I didn't feel like digging around in all those dusty old books anyway.

Ellen

This is one quote from a book that is at least in part speculative. There's no source that Pressman gives for "Many of Erhard's followers also cheered est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy for similar reasons. " He doesn't give a rough number for "many", where he got that information from or any backing. If there's reasonable evidence, I will consider it.

At one event Werner put on I asisted as a driver. The people attending the event that I was driving were psychologists, some or all from U.C. Berkeley. I never heard the organization disdain therapists and I assisted in a event where they were courted.

Werner's focus was/is in selling est/LE courses. I don't think he cared much who he sold to and what they did. A different purpose than L. Ron Hubbard's determining a religion.

-- Caligari

Do you think he cared for profit? Did he sell just to prove he could sell?

That you spent time 'in that space' boggles the mind, btw.

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MarkusWelch

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caligari

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elena

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caligari


I read "Outrageous Betrayal" by Pressman about four years ago. While it he did interviews and based information on that (or claims to since no references are provided), much of it is speculative. One example, is Pressman imagines Jack Rosenbergs thoughts while he's on a plane leaving Philadelphia. I find no basis for this passage of "est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy" from my years of invovlement in listening to staff people and participants in est.

-- Caligari

So even if I went to all the trouble of searching around for citations and typing them out and posted five hundred quotes plus told you my own personal experience, it wouldn't matter or have any effect on your opinion. Thanks, I didn't feel like digging around in all those dusty old books anyway.

Ellen

This is one quote from a book that is at least in part speculative. There's no source that Pressman gives for "Many of Erhard's followers also cheered est's satirical rejection of traditional psychotherapy for similar reasons. " He doesn't give a rough number for "many", where he got that information from or any backing. If there's reasonable evidence, I will consider it.

At one event Werner put on I asisted as a driver. The people attending the event that I was driving were psychologists, some or all from U.C. Berkeley. I never heard the organization disdain therapists and I assisted in a event where they were courted.

Werner's focus was/is in selling est/LE courses. I don't think he cared much who he sold to and what they did. A different purpose than L. Ron Hubbard's determining a religion.

-- Caligari

Do you think he cared for profit? Did he sell just to prove he could sell?

That you spent time 'in that space' boggles the mind, btw.

I think profit and selling is primary for Werner, adoration, loyalty and worthsip are secondary. If there was betting on a contest between him and someone else, he'd put money on both.

I'm not too happy about having been in est myself :) But, if
John F. Nash, Jr. ( [nobelprize.org] ) can overcome his state of "paranoid schizophrenia" through reason, someone can certainly relinquish est ideology using rational thinking.

-- Caligari

[quote="caligari

Unlike Scientology, est/Landmark does not attack and discount psychology and psychiatry. There's no prohibition and advice against psychiatric counseling. Actually there are at least a few Landmark pscyhologists and psychiatrists. They simply maintain the ideology of self-created, subjective reality with it's consequences.

-- Caligari[/quote]

I took the Forum in 12/01 and the leader went to great lengths to mock therapy, therapists and people in therapy. He named his chair "my problems" and threw it onto his back and dragged it around all over the stage, pretending he was crying and anxious and looking for pity. Then he mocked the entire field of psychology and therapists.

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Hope

Unlike Scientology, est/Landmark does not attack and discount psychology and psychiatry. There's no prohibition and advice against psychiatric counseling. Actually there are at least a few Landmark pscyhologists and psychiatrists. They simply maintain the ideology of self-created, subjective reality with it's consequences.

-- Caligari

I took the Forum in 12/01 and the leader went to great lengths to mock therapy, therapists and people in therapy. He named his chair "my problems" and threw it onto his back and dragged it around all over the stage, pretending he was crying and anxious and looking for pity. Then he mocked the entire field of psychology and therapists.

I haven't taken The Forum and have taken a few sessions of "The Landmark Forum in Action" recently. Some staff members may have a negative view of therapy now. May I ask who was the Forum Leader?

-- Caligari

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I took the Forum in 12/01 and the leader went to great lengths to mock therapy, therapists and people in therapy. He named his chair "my problems" and threw it onto his back and dragged it around all over the stage, pretending he was crying and anxious and looking for pity. Then he mocked the entire field of psychology and therapists.

This is actually a part of every Landmark Forum, so you were not alone there hope.

There is infact very little that remains individual to a forum even the little quips that landmark forums leaders use are pre-planned and learned.

One of the few individual things is the people who share and the coaching they receive at that time, however even the coaching is not "brand new" but regurgitated time and time and time again, changed in the hope that no one will realise its the same stuff.

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I haven't taken The Forum and have taken a few sessions of "The Landmark Forum in Action" recently. Some staff members may have a negative view of therapy now. May I ask who was the Forum Leader

Going along to a few sessions of LFIA is not taking it, you would have been asked to move into an introduction after graduates and the Landmark forum leader had all shared but you would not have been there for any real stuff

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Hope
I took the Forum in 12/01 and the leader went to great lengths to mock therapy, therapists and people in therapy. He named his chair "my problems" and threw it onto his back and dragged it around all over the stage, pretending he was crying and anxious and looking for pity. Then he mocked the entire field of psychology and therapists.

I think part of the artificial euphoria. the "high," that Landmark and est before it engineered into the ~programs~ was a direct result of having the burden of a long slog through traditional psychotherapy lifted from the minds and the souls of their customers. How relieved many must be at having the prospect of a painful, unflattering, and protracted self-examination waved away by the simplistic and superficial "magicians" who call themselves "leaders." (LOL - reminds me of those TV experiments where they show how many people are willing to give up their PIN numbers, withdraw money from their bank accounts, and hand it over to a man posing as some kind of "officer" in a rented uniform. It's the uniform (or white coat and clip-board in Zimbardo's experiments). Most people will take orders from an "authority figure," even if that "authority" is just a costume, pose, or phoney "title.")


Ellen