My recent encounter with a Landmarkian has created psychological damage to me. I can feel it. I feel anxious, sad, powerless, frustrated. I have a strong scientific background, and I trust my judgment and my insights when it comes to interpreting information and facts, but at the same time I feel powerless because I was unable to make a difference for her.

My Landmark ex-girlfriend tried very hard to destabilize my system of logic, most effectively by refusing to listen to me and anything I had to say about Landmark and why I think it’s defective. I am sad because she tried to convince me that my righteousness had a cost associated with it, and this cost was to loose my relationship with her. And it did happen. We split up, and she snapped into the harms of another man in a split second. Defeat and humiliation is the price I have to pay. I know her attitude is again very manipulative, I can feel it and I trust everything I read about the coercive persuasion techniques and other manipulative techniques Landmark and my ex-girlfriend have used on me (even though she didn’t do it intentionally).

What’s frustrating is I cannot prove anything using my scientific approach. I trust my insight but I cannot prove that I was right in a mathematical or scientific way. And now I am sad because I have lost an otherwise very rewarding relationship. So I doubt myself and I hate it. This is the psychological damage I am talking about. Landmark created that, but of course, for Landmark, I created it and some people over there pulling the strings must be very happy that a reluctant and stubborn person like me may finally “gets It” that any effort or arguments you use against Landmark will hurt you in return. I am responsible for my own choices, so I cannot blame anybody but me. No. Actually I don’t agree with that even though this attitude wouldn’t bring me any applause if I was talking in front of a Landmark audience. I blame Landmark’s system of logic for the pain it has created in me. The bottom line is : It is unhealthy for some people (like me), but they don’t care. The system is always right. The victim is always wrong. I am sad my girlfriend didn’t realize the damage she was creating in me.

On the other hand, I am proud of me for having resisted their (her) indoctrination techniques even though I am hurt. My inner self, my insights, my judgment, my body and my mind tells me I did the right thing. Landmark’s system of logic is simply incompatible with me, and the conflict it creates in my mind is too intense. This is because I am a logical person, and their closed system of logic is irrational at some point. I cannot make a leap of faith, become docile and dependant on any organized structure that challenges my inner beliefs and my system of logic.

This whole series of experience has led me to the study of a related phenomenon in our modern society that is New Age alternative medicine. What is the relationship between Landmark’s system of belief and Alternative medicine you might ask? It is in the interpretation of the reality and the beliefs that by training our consciousness a certain way, we can act on the reality, create the future as we travel along the scale of time. The world is made of possibilities, and by your act of consciousness, you can create your reality. It is this fundamental system of beliefs that explains why Forum leader will insist that participant have created their own cancer for example. New Age Healers will claim they can cure you at distance. This is called Quantum healing or distant healing. This is what is being presented in the Landmark’s cult movie “What the Bleep do we know?!!” for example. The origin or justification for those beliefs lies in the interpretation of quantum mechanics.

It is well know that Jack Rosenberg (the founder of EST and later Landmark) changed it’s name to Werner Erhard. The first name Werner he took after Werner Heisenberg, Nobel prize laureate of Physics in 1932 and better know for his famous “uncertainty principle” at the basis of quantum mechanics. Werner Erhard also funded the Physics of Consciousness Research Group in 1974. The work from this group serves as a basis for many of the interpretation that “consciousness” can act on the reality and that you are responsible for creating your reality. By itself, such an affirmation makes some sense. But when it is pushed to its extreme, it will lead to conclusions that the Tsunami victims created their own tragedy for example, or that a Landmark Forum participant should feel responsible for creating cancer in his wife!? This is absurd of course. But some people that are week and vulnerable will come to believe this jargon and accept the fact that they are indeed responsible for everything that happens in their life. Like my ex-girfriend used to say ” It’s easier to blame someone else than it is to blame yourself”, meaning hat blaming some external factors for the bad thing that happens in our life is in fact wrong and that training at Landmark will change that attitude for the better.

However the hidden secret behind this principle is that if something bad happens to you after our participation in Landmark or any other cult-like organization, you cannot blame Landmark but only yourself. Following the same line of reasoning, if you cannot heal your cancer using meditation of Quantum Healing or any other act of “consciousness”, it’s not because those Alternative Medicine techniques do not work, but it’s because you have failed in your attempt to do so and you’re responsible for failing (blaming the victim again, not the organization).

Now, have I leaned something out of this intellectual exercise I’ve been doing for the last couple of months? The answer is yes. And I need to thank my ex-girlfriend for that. I have decided to use my background as a physicist (yes I am a professional medical physicist) and organize seminars for residents, doctors and my fellow medial physicists to discuss about the influence of modern science in Alternative Medicine in order to help my community in how to deal with patients that are puzzled by all the quaky physics and medicine that is available outside the mainstream medical world. This is not to say that all alternative medicine is quackery. But an intense effort is needed to educate our community about cults, about indoctrination, false beliefs, strange forces acting between people, the power to create the reality and ultimately the power to heal.

I have only scratched the surface so far ... and I feel overwhelmed by what remains to be done in our fights against cults and other quackery.

Michael D.

Hello,

<<My recent encounter with a Landmarkian has created psychological damage to me. I can feel it. I feel anxious, sad, powerless, frustrated. I have a strong scientific background, and I trust my judgment and my insights when it comes to interpreting information and facts, but at the same time I feel powerless because I was unable to make a difference for her.>>

I sympathize, for I lost my best friend to the Pod People and felt much that same as you do now.

<<My Landmark ex-girlfriend tried very hard to destabilize my system of logic, most effectively by refusing to listen to me and anything I had to say about Landmark and why I think it’s defective. I am sad because she tried to convince me that my righteousness had a cost associated with it, and this cost was to loose my relationship with her. And it did happen. We split up, and she snapped into the harms of another man in a split second. Defeat and humiliation is the price I have to pay. I know her attitude is again very manipulative, I can feel it and I trust everything I read about the coercive persuasion techniques and other manipulative techniques Landmark and my ex-girlfriend have used on me (even though she didn’t do it intentionally). >>

My friend too seemed to literally "transform" into a manipulator, although how consciously is not clear to me. It felt more as if she was simply parroting a prearranged script designed BY manipulotors. I too read all the books, much like you, because I was trained in scientific methods, and I felt a strong need to understand what had happened to her and to our friendship. I particularly found "The Art of Seduction" chilling in this regard.

<<What’s frustrating is I cannot prove anything using my scientific approach. I trust my insight but I cannot prove that I was right in a mathematical or scientific way. >>


You know that's EXACTLY what I've been feeling, but I never realized it until now thanks to your clearly articulating it. It's all smoke and mirrors. They say just enough lawyer-speak to snare people, but seemingly never enough to get trapped themselves. VERY frustrating indeed.

<< And now I am sad because I have lost an otherwise very rewarding relationship. So I doubt myself and I hate it. This is the psychological damage I am talking about. Landmark created that, but of course, for Landmark, I created it and some people over there pulling the strings must be very happy that a reluctant and stubborn person like me may finally “gets It” that any effort or arguments you use against Landmark will hurt you in return. >>

I share your frustration and feelings of futility. It seems like no matter how much one tries to help a friends in this situation, it just seems to dig a deeper hole.

<<I am responsible for my own choices, so I cannot blame anybody but me. No. Actually I don’t agree with that even though this attitude wouldn’t bring me any applause if I was talking in front of a Landmark audience. I blame Landmark’s system of logic for the pain it has created in me. The bottom line is : It is unhealthy for some people (like me), but they don’t care. The system is always right. The victim is always wrong. I am sad my girlfriend didn’t realize the damage she was creating in me.>>

The fact that they give the impression that it's a cure-all is at least one tangible way one can criticize them, but it's frustrating because even that doesn't seem to get to the indoctrinated.

<<On the other hand, I am proud of me for having resisted their (her) indoctrination techniques even though I am hurt. My inner self, my insights, my judgment, my body and my mind tells me I did the right thing. Landmark’s system of logic is simply incompatible with me, and the conflict it creates in my mind is too intense. This is because I am a logical person, and their closed system of logic is irrational at some point. I cannot make a leap of faith, become docile and dependant on any organized structure that challenges my inner beliefs and my system of logic.>>

The weired forum speak they use, saying things like "Life is empty and meaningless, and that it is empty and meaningless IS empty and meaningless..." How the &$%@* do you even comment on such sophistry? It's like some twisted logic/algebra problem with a plethora of un/non/not statements all strung together. My only conclusion is that such obfuscation is deliberate, and ultimately I feel in my bones that it's not meant to make logical sense; it's simply pseudo profundity with the real intent of manipulation--sales manipulation.

<<This whole series of experience has led me to the study of a related phenomenon in our modern society that is New Age alternative medicine. What is the relationship between Landmark’s system of belief and Alternative medicine you might ask? It is in the interpretation of the reality and the beliefs that by training our consciousness a certain way, we can act on the reality, create the future as we travel along the scale of time. The world is made of possibilities, and by your act of consciousness, you can create your reality. It is this fundamental system of beliefs that explains why Forum leader will insist that participant have created their own cancer for example. New Age Healers will claim they can cure you at distance. This is called Quantum healing or distant healing. This is what is being presented in the Landmark’s cult movie “What the Bleep do we know?!!” for example. The origin or justification for those beliefs lies in the interpretation of quantum mechanics.

It is well know that Jack Rosenberg (the founder of EST and later Landmark) changed it’s name to Werner Erhard. The first name Werner he took after Werner Heisenberg, Nobel prize laureate of Physics in 1932 and better know for his famous “uncertainty principle” at the basis of quantum mechanics. Werner Erhard also funded the Physics of Consciousness Research Group in 1974. The work from this group serves as a basis for many of the interpretation that “consciousness” can act on the reality and that you are responsible for creating your reality. By itself, such an affirmation makes some sense. But when it is pushed to its extreme, it will lead to conclusions that the Tsunami victims created their own tragedy for example, or that a Landmark Forum participant should feel responsible for creating cancer in his wife!? This is absurd of course. But some people that are week and vulnerable will come to believe this jargon and accept the fact that they are indeed responsible for everything that happens in their life. Like my ex-girfriend used to say ” It’s easier to blame someone else than it is to blame yourself”, meaning hat blaming some external factors for the bad thing that happens in our life is in fact wrong and that training at Landmark will change that attitude for the better. >>

I was brought up in a quasi mystical household, our family has had good results with SOME alternative medicines and I was later trained in a scientific field. Sometimes I feel like a walking contradiction.

The impression that I walked away with from many New Age healers is that the majority of them mean well, and in my own experience many of them were even effective. I'll concede that this may have been a "placebo" effect, but regardless even if it was as such, it says much for the power of the mind to heal nevertheless. And I find allopathic's total disinterest in such curious.

Regardless I think that it's fair to say that like in any profession you have GREAT performers, Average ones and Worthless ones...and then there are those who are more interested in engendering in their clients a sense of learned helplessness which leads to having a perpetual customers. I suspect Landmark falls into the last group.

However Personally I don't think of Landmark as a literal New Age group as such. While they still cling to that EST (we're responsible for whatever happens to us) thing, they either don't (or won't admit ) believing the very New Age foundations that such a theories are typically based upon:

From a New Age perspective, at least, the theory that we "create our own reality" only makes logical & HUMANE sense in such a context if (I simply provide these for consideration, not to promote them):
)

1) You buy into the theory of reincarnation

2) You buy into the theory that we create lion's share of the script for physical incarnation, prior to physical REincarnation, while in a HIGHER disincarnate SOUL consciousness.

3) During PHYSICAL incarnation, we can edit the script somewhat , BUT ONLY by accessing what New Agers/mystics refer to as the HIGHER SOUL concsiousess, a consciousness that they say is typically subconscious, or even more remote, in most people to distracted by gross materialism.

Hence in the ultimate SPIRITUAL sense, if you believe the two aformentioned theories, then YES, we "create our own reality" but only when in that HIGHER sense of consciousness. But the theory continues that in our role of HUMAN relative consciousness we have no conscious recollection/awareness of that. Indeed it would be fair to say that the HUMAN consciousness NEVER existed until the birth of its physical shell so how could it possibly ever? Quite simply it couldn't.

And thus Landmark has painted itself into a corner. If it admits to a belief in reincarnation and the pre existence of the SOUL as being our true state of being then it has to admit that it's either a religion or that it has HUGE religious implications. That's bad for business.

On the other hand if it doesn't then ultimately Landmark's claim that we are responsible for everything that happen to us are not only HUGELY inhumane & unfair, but they make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE even from a more GNOSTIC/Eastern Philosophical ontological sense.

And so Landmark had no other choice, and loiters in between, in the hazy gray area, hoping that once they've got the latest participants sold then that same haziness will simply allow the converted to hear/see whatever it is they want to see when faced with such. Thus such contradictions need never be addressed, for seemingly all capacity for critical thinking in this particular regared has been effectively neutralized in the satisfied customer.

<<However the hidden secret behind this principle is that if something bad happens to you after our participation in Landmark or any other cult-like organization, you cannot blame Landmark but only yourself.>>


You are so right! Funny isn't it? Landmark ALWAYS takes credit for (or they imply it as loudly as they can without saying so) the "BREAKTHROUGHS," but NEVER for the psychological havoc that some participants suffer. Of course the forum freaks that loiter at the various discussion groups officiously deny it in a blizzard of eye-crossing forum speak. But simply go back a few years to earlier discussions before such criticisms were fired across their deck, and their contradictions are so glaring that you have to wear sunglasses.

<<Following the same line of reasoning, if you cannot heal your cancer using meditation of Quantum Healing or any other act of “consciousness”, it’s not because those Alternative Medicine techniques do not work, but it’s because you have failed in your attempt to do so and you’re responsible for failing (blaming the victim again, not the organization).>>

Absolutely! Again since Landmark doesn't own up to the whole NEW AGE reality-creation package that assumes reincarnation, soul pre-existence and that we create our reality from our SOUL consciousness PRIOR to physical incarnation, naturally it doesn't even make sense from a New Age perspective.

<<Now, have I leaned something out of this intellectual exercise I’ve been doing for the last couple of months? The answer is yes. And I need to thank my ex-girlfriend for that. I have decided to use my background as a physicist (yes I am a professional medical physicist) and organize seminars for residents, doctors and my fellow medial physicists to discuss about the influence of modern science in Alternative Medicine in order to help my community in how to deal with patients that are puzzled by all the quaky physics and medicine that is available outside the mainstream medical world. This is not to say that all alternative medicine is quackery. But an intense effort is needed to educate our community about cults, about indoctrination, false beliefs, strange forces acting between people, the power to create the reality and ultimately the power to heal. I have only scratched the surface so far ... and I feel overwhelmed by what remains to be done in our fights against cults and other quackery.>>

I couldn't agree more. And the fact that you are able to acknowledge that there is some good in alternative medicine, in my mind at least, give you much more credibility. There are plenty of people, and websites, that trash anything and anyone (including Landmark) that isn't stamped with the approval of conservative-orthodoxy--medicine, religion, politics and science. However, today's respected science was often yesterday's "impossibility." The criticism of such small-minded scoffers who inappropriate call themselves "skeptics," to me at least, seems FAR more BIASED, than BASED, on facts. While science is based on the past, it should NEVER be limited to it.

Thanks for your terrific post that really helped me to better understand some of my own vague feelings.

CNFT

Dear folks,

I forwarded my letter above to my ex-girfriend in an effort to get "complete" with her if I may use the Landmark jargon. This was her stunning reply :

"please do not send me anymore of your hate mail. If you try to contact me in any way I will call the police."

I feel morally destroyed and disgusted !!! I realize this is what the Landmarkians are excellent at: put down, destroy and crush people who are against their practices.

Was my letter really a "hate" letter !??? Was it that bad ??? Where is all the "love and sharing" those people are talking about all the time?
I feel like jumping off the window (but don't worry I won't do it).

Michael D.

[Was my letter really a "hate" letter !??? Was it that bad ??? Where is all the "love and sharing" those people are talking about all the time?
I feel like jumping off the window (but don't worry I won't do it).

Michael D.[/quote]


--In scientology, it's called a "doing a disconnect." She's probably been instructed to do this. They have their hooks in deep. You can see how cult members become more and more dependent on other cult members when they've destroyed their other relationships. They are probably very, very threatened by what you've written and willing to use whatever they can to get the follower to cut off the source of outside information. They may have even "convinced" her that you are in league with the devil, or some such nonsense, as they do in most cults. And you can also see how repellent and obnoxious cult members become, so that there's little ~possibility~ that anyone outside the cult will even want to be in the same room with them. It's sad. It's like social leprosy, only the un-afflicted are the ones suffering. The victims have lost feeling, lost communion with the outside world, and lost access to that most valuable social and scientific commodity - feedback.

Ellen

Hi CNFT,

[I particularly found "The Art of Seduction" chilling in this regard.]


--Yes. And if you're in the mood for some really scary stuff, take a look at the "speed seduction" information. It's the NLP-types, who have, evidently, taken it to the next level. Reading what they "offer" will make your hair stand on end - not so much that it works, (which I couldn't say but don't believe could be that effective), but that there are guys out there willing to pay money for these "tactics" and think it's perfectly OK. Are they preying on the fantasies of dweeby guys who would like to become "wolves," or are they pandering to the revenge fantasies of guys who think they've been taken advantage of? Either way, they're playing the same game - turning "victims" into "victimizers."


[The impression that I walked away with from many New Age healers is that the majority of them mean well, and in my own experience many of them were even effective. I'll concede that this may have been a "placebo" effect, but regardless even if it was as such, it says much for the power of the mind to heal nevertheless. And I find allopathic's total disinterest in such curious.]


--It's not that traditional practitioners are not interested in alternative medicine. There are lots and lots of "real" doctors doing and writing about alternative methods. But too often alternative types offer their wares as equivalent or replacement of traditional therapies instead of offering them in conjunction, support, or after or wherever conventional medicine fails. And also, there are waaaaay too many charlatans.


[Regardless I think that it's fair to say that like in any profession you have GREAT performers, Average ones and Worthless ones...and then there are those who are more interested in engendering in their clients a sense of learned helplessness which leads to having a perpetual customers. I suspect Landmark falls into the last group.]


--At the very least.




[And thus Landmark has painted itself into a corner. If it admits to a belief in reincarnation and the pre existence of the SOUL as being our true state of being then it has to admit that it's either a religion or that it has HUGE religious implications. That's bad for business]


--Funnily enough, and because Werner Erhard was neither educated nor particulary intelligent, they did use L. Ron Hubbard's "time-track" and past-lives regression in the early est "programs." Someone must have whispered in his ear that this stuff would put him into the "loony" category pretty quickly and he quietly dropped these, along with the "E-meters."


[On the other hand if it doesn't then ultimately Landmark's claim that we are responsible for everything that happen to us are not only HUGELY inhumane & unfair, but they make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE even from a more GNOSTIC/Eastern Philosophical ontological sense.]


--But they do in a megalomaniacal, solipsistic, Aleistar Crowley sense because that is where L. Ron Hubbard picked them up. The early accounts of him and his sci-fi buddies in Pasadena are a riot. You can read a short chapter about them in Mike Davis's "City of Quartz."



[And so Landmark had no other choice, and loiters in between, in the hazy gray area, hoping that once they've got the latest participants sold then that same haziness will simply allow the converted to hear/see whatever it is they want to see when faced with such. Thus such contradictions need never be addressed, for seemingly all capacity for critical thinking in this particular regared has been effectively neutralized in the satisfied customer.]


--Yes.



Ellen

Quote
midonov123
Dear folks,

I forwarded my letter above to my ex-girfriend in an effort to get "complete" with her if I may use the Landmark jargon. This was her stunning reply :

"please do not send me anymore of your hate mail. If you try to contact me in any way I will call the police."

I feel morally destroyed and disgusted !!! I realize this is what the Landmarkians are excellent at: put down, destroy and crush people who are against their practices.

Was my letter really a "hate" letter !??? Was it that bad ??? Where is all the "love and sharing" those people are talking about all the time?
I feel like jumping off the window (but don't worry I won't do it).

Michael D.

It's sad to lose a relationship and I'm sorry for your pain. But, it's more valuable to not compromise seeing things honestly and as they actually are. It takes courage to reject dishonest intimidation. If someone won't be veracious there's nothing that can be done. There's a world of people, many of them who value the truth.

Good luck,

Caligari

What makes you think that "What the Bleep" is associated with Landmark?

Timmer:

You don't make much sense here.

"What the Bleep" is a psuedo-dcumentary produced by followers of New Age guru J.Z. Knight who claims to channel "Ramtha."

See [www.culteducation.com]

The inclusion of this film on the list does not mean that it is directly related to Landmark and no one said that, but rather generally connected by the genre of rather subjective experience-driven fuzzy thinking and supposed logic.

Please stop wasting both space and people's time responding to such nonsense on this board.

Perhaps Timmer has motivation to discount this message board?

Could that person belong to a group currently under scrutiny?
Perhaps a thread that is frequently visited?

Just a thought.

:wink:

All (as of this date),

Do y'all sense that we would not even be discussing some of these things, except for the fact of greed being connected?

IMO, looking at the probs we see, it is, IMO (& WTH do I know?), it is a mixture of controlling techniques driven by greed/power, not just USA but other cultures..."control of the herd" used by governments but now used by businesses to gain profit!

I have said, over the years, "to see you again, makes my heart soar like a hawk", oops I diverted there...as humane beings, I sense that we are assaulted constantly in the "free" (gotts love those marketers on this one!) world with sublte/little up-front sensory bombardment of buy/buy/buy in-coming hits..

So to have a business "pitch" the unconscious side of the brain seems easy, if you're in the know..c'mon, all marketing people inhale that type of air everyday.

Unlike that past, just in any "normal" day, we have to be constantly vigilant..remember the herd comment earlier?

PAX