Quote
JackSF
>i understand that the young peoples forum
>is basically the same as the forum for adults.
>
>imagine those children are dropped to their
>knees in terror and then taken to histerical
>laughter as they are the ones doing the terror.

Patrick is refering to what used to be called the "Fear Process" in est. I don't remember what they call it in the Forum. In any event you can find it described on pp 106, 107 of [u:5269ba7e5c]The Book of est[/u:5269ba7e5c] by Luke Rhinehart.

(This book is out of print but you can find used copies available from Amazon. Just about everything in the est Training and much that occurs in the Forum and Advanced Course is recreated in [u:5269ba7e5c]The Book of est[/u:5269ba7e5c]. It's an excellent book for those interested. I highly recommend it.)

The "Fear Process" is really not a big deal. Just about all children have been through far worse in movie theaters. The Fear Process been toned down in the Forum to the point where at's barely frightening at all.

that is not true. in the forum that
i took practically all the people
were wailing and screaming and crying.
they were feeling terror alright.
and now u tell us that it has been
toned down ?

want to tell us the purpose of the
empowerment process is ?

isnt this to empowerment the landmark
leader over the people ?

and keep in mind this is hypnosis.

yes, i am sure that when children
are hypnotized that they are quite
frightened.

interesting for u to attempt to make
it light and easy though.





In my Forum it was a tedious bust--hardly anyone got past heavy breathing and a few chuckles.

The only real panic I sensed was from the Forum leader in the face of such a non-responsive audience. However, except for me and maybe a few other reviewers in the group, no one knew that she was bombing. When it was finally over, we got to go on break.

thanks for posting

Love is all u need.

with lots of people, was asked intrusive, personal questions by total strangers, got called an asshole, a cold hearted ****, and many more ghastly names than those.

Best thing is, I didnt have to pay a dime to go through any this. I was so clever that someone paid ME to do it!

Learned all about my shit, my hang ups, my 'racket', other people's 'rackets'--and I got to serve society in a real, verifiable way.

I discovered all this not in a hotel room, but by working at a soup kitchen and homeless shelter in the skid row area of our city. I learned about other people's shit, too--I cleaned the bathrooms after everyone left. The inch long cockroaches were the highlight of my day--though the rats and mice were also amusing. So were the empty bottles, stray syringes, and unflushed toilets with Mt. Everests of human manure. You could've planted a flag there.

Ya learn about other people's boundaries fast when you have tell them they have lice and need to take a medical shower and do a change of clothes if they want to stay overnight at your shelter.

Turned out no one was a victim because we were ALL suffering, in various ways. With some of us, it was more obvious than others--that was the only difference.

We are all fucked up, and we are all hurting, no matter what color or class we are. How can we be kinder to each other? Thats really all it comes down to in the end.

How to see people as people, each with a unique history, not as generic robots to tinker with?

>and now u tell us that it has been
>toned down ?

Compared to how it was done at est, yes. Back in those days there was a big scary buildup to these things with big scary names--"The Danger Process", "The Fear Process". And in the Fear Process, all the chairs were pushed to the sides of the room, the lights were turned out, and people lay on the floor while the ghostly voice of the trainer pushed people into fear. It went for a long time and people really went with it.

At the Forum when I realized that this process was coming next, I went to the back of the room to ask the staff for ear plugs. They didn't have any but I was given a kleenex and told to use that instead in my ears.

But it was hardly necessary. We sat in our seats with the lights as bright as ever, the induction was short and the process was over pretty quick. No screaming, no weeping, wailing or gnashing of teeth. Personallly I found it boring.

That's what I mean by toned down.

Quote
JackSF
>and now u tell us that it has been
>toned down ?

Compared to how it was done at est, yes. Back in those days there was a big scary buildup to these things with big scary names--"The Danger Process", "The Fear Process".

jinnendra gave us no build up at all.


And in the Fear Process, all the chairs were pushed to the sides of the room, the lights were turned out, and people lay on the floor while the ghostly voice of the trainer pushed people into fear.

the lights didnt go out until he
had the crowd rocking and rolling
with fear.

It went for a long time and people really went with it.

i understand again people wanting
to make it appear less severe than
it was was it was very terrifying
to the people that attended the forum
that i took.




At the Forum when I realized that this process was coming next, I went to the back of the room to ask the staff for ear plugs. They didn't have any but I was given a kleenex and told to use that instead in my ears.

were u hoping to not to have to listen
to the empowerment process or were
u just attempting to block out all the
wailing and crying and screaming.



But it was hardly necessary. We sat in our seats with the lights as bright as ever, the induction was short and the process was over pretty quick. No screaming, no weeping, wailing or gnashing of teeth. Personallly I found it boring.

That's what I mean by toned down.

buty lets not forget it *is* the
empowerment process.

this is where landmark empowers u for
good living.

landmark empowers its victims in the
empowerment process. makes sense
doest it? and landamrk even renamed
the important part of the forum from
the danger process to the empowerment
process.

do u think they renamed it for a reason.

while using mind control techniques
on people and sending them to a place
in their minds of terror they are
empowering themselves over the people.

its quite simple.

now landmark of course would not want
to admit to this but they of course
are empowering themselves over the peoples. dont u get it ?

You're right on the money, Patrick.


>>now landmark of course would not want
to admit to this but they of course
are empowering themselves over the peoples. dont u get it ?>>>



And Jack,

The fact that this was done to people with very traumatic memories by amateurs with no psychological experience or back up caused all kinds of problems, some resulting in extended hospital stays for people. I understand they retain a psychologist or psychiatric social worker now, because of this. It's just so much slapping a band-aid on the wound. (You do realize it is/was a hypnotic induction, don't you?)


Corboy,

Are you familiar with the story about the group, Lifespring or Leadership Dynamics, I think it was, in which if someone "confessed" he felt like shit he was made to lie in a pile of shit "donated" by the other participants? (It was one of the more colorful abuses that came out of these idiotic organisations.)



Ellen

No, Elena, I never heard of THAT one.

Inflicting massive trauma as a means to enlightenment is sometimes passed off as a legitimate form of teaching--but IMO is more likely to leave the recipient with a whole new set of scars on top of whatever they started with.

The scary thing is, the poor guy probably had to PAY for the whole miserable weekend in which the shit was piled on him. Wonder who had to clean it up? Maybe he had to.

There's a comparable story, told by both Luna Tarlo, mother of Andrew Cohen the guru/publisher of What Is Enlightenment? magazine and Andre van der Braak, who lived under Cohen's regime for 11 years until he finally decided that it was not for him.

The incident, verified by both people in thier books ('The Mother of God', Luna Tarlo, and 'Enlightenment Blues', by Andre van der Braak) tells of a brutal form of ego-annihilation prescribed by the guru for a disciple who said he felt he'd become too attached to his new car.

Guru Andrew made the guy take the car to a junk yard. He ordered him to put his ego on the line by crushing the car--a sacrifice of his ego to his guru. The faithful disciple was ordered to press the button on the crusher. The guys who worked in the junk yard were horrified.

The disciple was so desperate for his guru's approval that he destroyed (murdered?) his own car--a $20,000 Saab.

IF I had to choose between destroying my $20,000 car vs lying in a shit pile, I guess I'd choose the shit pile. Humiliation is temporary and you can always get a clean set of clothes and a shower.

It isnt so easy to get another 20 K or a new Saab.

Just joking, (but not quite. Its never funny when humans treat each other like objects).

Men in that Heaven's Gate group were persuaded by their leaders to undergo castration--which shows that we are capable of doing anything if successfully infected with the right combination of memes.