I would like to learn the Landmark Process without the "cult" stuff. Is there a very qualified teacher of the Landmark Education Process that would like to teach it over the phone?

this is a sad post. basically this user
is saying "mind control me but dont
use any of the cult stuff"


this says a lot about the rest of us.


people want to feel good and one of the
quickest easiest ways to do it to have
your thinking taken from u. its astonishing
but its true.

The reason it works to the addictive degree is the experiential aspect.

They probably wish they could give the courses over the phone.

Less time/more money.

Very sad reading OUTRAGEOUS BETRAYAL.

Without the "cultstuff" would mean picking up any book about personal development and read. The important thing is to do it without the influence of the LE teachers and be objective. They are not the law. What you read is not the only way.

I have been to personal development courses through my job where nothing of the "cult" part is the point of the course. We did the class and then went home again, like soccer practise. I think most work places have something like this some time. It's about asking your self .. "okay what are my goals?" .. stuff like that. Nothing dangerous and no carismatic leaders that tell you to come back, come back, come back......

Anyway - I get what dmoshe means. There are a lot of people who takes LE classes - companies too - and all of them don't end up on the bad side. What is it that appeal a company like Microsoft? Is it something we can learn from? Everywhere there is something we can learn, even in LE, but for me it is the objectiveness that is important. Don't buy everything people say. There is always an other side of everything, no words are the only true words. That is why I don't fit in there.

I don't see any reason to call this post as a OUTRAGEOUS BETRAYAL. That is just a way to push people away from this boeard and definately not a way to meet Landmarkers with. For me it is just to prove to these people that life works perfectly well without being part of the Landmark community and learn them to stand on their own legs.

Northernlady

OUTRAGEOUS BETRAYAL is a book about Werner Erhard.

Not your thread.

You are right. You can get this stuff from reading and sometimes it can be normal inspirational messages.

They LANDMARK/EST/LIFESPRING/MITT/FORUM/LEGACY want something more. They have a hidden agenda and they use mind control techniques to get the "Feel Good" transfer to doing their bidding.

Be very beware!

u cant take a cult training and not come away
with some of the cult in u. to suggest u take
a forum but leave without the cult stuff is
quite incredible. it is a form of mind control.
it is not u mind controlling yourself, it is
them doing u in the forum.

one of landmarks comments is

take what u want and leave the rest.

as long as u take something from them
they a hold on u. that is how it works.

they dont expect anyone probably to
accept the whole forum as their new
way of being, it would almost impossible
to do this. they hope u will accept at
something and if u do they have a psycological
connection.

I just read this post and the replies. The ABSOLUTE TRUTH is that Landmark teaches some very basic techniques that you CAN get by picking up any good self help books. As a matter of fact, a lot of what I have heard from Landmark does NOT seem so "cutting edge", or "new age". Its borrowed material.

You can spend the 6.99 on a paper back or hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on course after course.

I am sure that Landmark doesn't hurt everyone involved, but it does MAJOR damage to those with weak personalities or self-esteem.

The top brass at Landmark live off of the generous devotion of time and energy of these weak people.

By a book. I can recommend many.

and our relationship.

they do damage weak people.

i would like to propose legislation to curb or stop or regulate these companies.

first - let's try California.

all we need are enough signatures.

The misconception is that people with weak personalities and self esteem are the ones getting hurt by Landmark. This is not necessarily true. Many strong personalities get drawn in. Everyone obviously has a weak spot and times when self esteem may be lower than other times, but I've seen Landmark create self doubt in self confident people. This is a normal phenomenon with people involved with narcissists, and I strongly believe that LGAT is not only led by Ns but is akin to continuing ed for Ns. Paragraphs 9* + 10* below describe the stronger types that get sucked in.

Mary Ann Borg Cunen , M.A. Counselling Psychology (Baltimore, U.S.A.)

Echo No Longer; The Recovery Process of the Partner of the Person Suffering from a Narcissistically Impaired Personality.

In the past few years I have come across an increasing number of persons suffering from NPD and also an increasing number of individuals whose partners seem to be narcissistically disordered. Through my practice I have met clients at the various stages of this process and each stage has its characteristics as regards both the state of the relationship, and the
emotional state of the partner.

Narcissism is usually described by a list of behaviours most of which involve the individual himself. Here I will focus more of the way narcissism interferes with relationships. I believe that there is no better way to diagnosis a narcissist than to look at his relationships and at how his Narcissistic Abuse Study List ex partners have been effected by him.

In describing the victims of narcissists Patrick Hurst’s has suggested the diagnosis of EPD, Echo Dependent Personality to describe type of person who is so good at reflecting and affirming another but is lacking in a solid sense of self. “Echo has been captivated by the voice of another of which she is a mere reflection. Echo and Narcissus fit together perfectly; neither is able to initiate and sustain dialogue”.

A characteristic predisposing background of EPD involves individuals being parented by caretakers who are themselves self-absorbed, narcissistic, or overly punitive. In the words of Joanna Ashmun : “Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with prior training (i.e. who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them.” In this kind of environment the child learns that asserting one’s ‘true self’ will be met with (often serial) rejection, to which the child responds by substituting ‘compliant’ behaviour in place of true selfhood. Such compliant behaviour can then be witnessed as a stable feature throughout the child’s growing-up years, with other school children, and within the family. These may feel “at home” who takes control, belittles and is emotionally cut off. (Hurst, 1998).

Types of “Echo”

In the introduction to commentaries about the story from Greek mythology we find the appropriate warning: “It is important to note that Narcissus had many lovers, both men and women, so this treatment of Echo is not meant to be a description of every person who has had a relationship with a narcissist. Echo can be seen as just one of a myriad of different
personalities who found herself caught within the spell of Narcissus.”

Some persons may find themselves drawn to one N after another, perhaps unable to learn from the experience, or alternatively needing to work something out intrapersonally through being with an N. Having been parented by an N. often predisposes an individual to seek this dynamic again with a partner.

I have also met many altruistic, empathic rescuers in this situation. While some of these can be seen as suffering from EPD others are well defined individuals; I believe these get in touch intuitively with N need for love and self-acceptance, and think they can heal this person if they only love them enough. The implication of this, of course, is that if he does not improve it is their fault. So they try even harder.

The need for someone to idealize, admire, look to for guidance is perhaps an especially. dangerous one. When these persons are let down by their Ns they may sink into a loss of hope wider than pain of the abusive relationship itself.

*However I wish to emphasize very strongly that being in relationship with an N changes a person (momentarily) and it is easy to become dependent, insecure and clinging. I recommend that counselors and psychotherapists withhold diagnosis of a person in this situation unless they knew her before or until they have seen the “freed” version of the individual. The contrast is sometimes striking. I have seen spirited, assertive, self-assured young women fall under this spell.

*”I became this dependent, fearful, insecure person about one year into my relationship with my N. I did not trust my thoughts, my feelings, and my intuition. I shut off all of these so I could fit in with my N. and become what he wanted of me. Just a year before I had been this confident, self-directed, independent woman. None of my friends would ever have described me as dependent.”

The article is too lengthy for this forum. I would be glad to email the remainder on request.

It describes my life--including my sense of betrayal and loss of hope when I realized the extent to which I'd been hurt by my entanglement with a charismatic narcissist. My parents were narcissisitic, so I got excellent training.

The person I got entangled with engendered my interest in cultic situations. He did not run a cult in the conventional sense; he preferred a private life, and his wife would probably have refused to allow him to go so far. But his marriage was unsatisfactory, so X wanted a non sexual confidante. I fit the bill perfectly. I became X's mistress in the emotional sense--psychic incest for me, and psychic adultery on his part.

In X's case, he was a minister, a pastoral counselor and quite talented and charismatic. It took years to learn that he hated accountability and had had no formal training for his various roles--he pretended to value dialogue, presented as gentle and acquiesent, but what he actually did evaded authority whenver he could. He also witheld crucial information from his associates so that they would not crack down and tell him to stop doing his activist stuff. In relation to activism, he was exactly like an addict--lied and manipulated so that he could keep on getting his fix. I was one of his enablers--Echo to his Narcissisus

His charisma was subtle--not the blatant variety; he subtly pulled attention in his direction. He embodied the heroism and sanctity that our social circle valued. Our admiration of X was linked to our aspiration for ourselves. In my case my self hate fueled my hero worship of X. I totally fucked myself up.

Any time you admire a martyr, always, always look for whether they have recruited enablers ('Echos') and see whether their families and coworkers have given uncoerced consent to permit the person to be away from home for such reasons.

Under X's influence I wanted to be a martyr and spend my life in prison witnessing for peace. Am grateful that 2 days in the local jail cured me of that. When John Walker Lindh made the news, I understood him because I saw my younger self in him.

Am going to look for a copy of Cunen's book. Thank you, Hope.