questioner:

"I can't blame this 100% on Abraham-Hicks. Every person needs to take responsibility for his own life. But you will notice many people who 'follow' Abraham-Hicks and end up in financial ruin. (but on the other hand there are many very wealthy and successful people who are fans of Abraham, too."

Your posts go back and forth.

"take responsibility"?

Should the victims of supposedly spiritual confidence schemes take responsibility, if they were conned and deceived?

I don't think my posts go back and forth at all. There are positive aspects and negative aspects and I'm presenting both sides of the story, the good and the bad.

"Should the victims of supposedly spiritual confidence schemes take responsibility, if they were conned and deceived?"

If someone chooses to quit their job or rack up their credit card bills, yes, they should take responsibility for that. Nobody else chose to do that and I've never heard Abraham-Hicks tell anyone to do that. I can't speak from experience of other so-called "cults" that are real cults and really manipulate people into ruining their lives. Of course those people are victims of a crime.

Abraham-Hicks is selling a product. So far in this thread I haven't read any stories of anyone who has been truly victimized by Abraham-Hicks. The people whose spouses were nutty would probably have found some other thing to be nutty about if they hadn't latched on to Abraham-Hicks.

Yes, if people are lying and scheming and manipulating people into giving them all their money, that is wrong. I don't think Abraham-Hicks are doing that specifically. They've even stopped using the word "channeling" so it can be interpreted in a lot of ways. I personally think it's made up, maybe they really believe they're channeling some being. We really have no idea of knowing what they really believe and think and what their true intentions are.

I DON'T think Abraham-Hicks is a cult but I DO think people need to use some common sense. I DO think people can go overboard and get too over-involved with people. Abraham-Hicks doesn't tell people to get rid of their friends that disagree with them. Some people choose to do that, and then they immerse themselves in that quazi-spiritual world. But that is something that they are CHOOSING to do and the instruction to do that is not coming from Abraham-Hicks.

It feels like you want to fight with me just because my opinion of them isn't all bad. Can't we have a discussion where we look at both sides of the story? The complete black-or-white nature of this argument isn't serving anyone.

Do I think sometimes fans of Abraham-Hicks lose a bit of touch with reality? Yes, I do. Do I think that they are still responsible for their own actions? Yes, I do.

rrmoderator: I have asked this already and I'll ask you again and this time I'm hoping you'll answer: Have you read any of their books? Have you listened to any of their lectures? If not, you're making assumptions based on very little information.

I just read this whole discussion, and I found it very interesting, despite it being one-sided, which, if you understand law of attraction, is logical. I have discovered Abraham-Hicks a few years ago, and have found them to be the most advanced teachers I´ve come across in my lifetime. I don´t care at all about the people presenting the material - they seem to be a nice couple, but there is no such thing as looking up to them in any way, they hold no authority whatsoever. And if you understand the teachings, that´s exactly how it should be. The teachings are all about individual self-empowerment, and listening to your own guidance, not that of others - including Abraham! They do not give you guidance about what you should or shouldn´t do, but rather show you a way to get to where you individually want to get. And you don´t need Abraham to show you the way, you have your own compass within you from the very first day of life experience. This is about as far from a cult as you can get. But the most important thing in light of this discussion is their stance "Words do not teach, it is life experience that teaches." The words of Abraham don´t mean much if anything if you don´t put them to the test in your life, and show yourself that they are more than fluffy talk. In fact, I´ve found them to be the basis of understanding of how life works, who we really are, and how life can be improved in ways that years ago I wouldn´t have even dreamt of. Whenever I hear something new from them however, the words are at best interesting, but it´s only their application in real life that can ultimately convince me of their validity. I´m a skeptic at the core, with a comparatively high level of intelligence (keep in mind though that English is not my native language), and so when I first came across the teachings, I had some of the same concerns that other people on this forum have, too. Being in a position of fully understanding the teachings now, and actually applying them, I have to say that none of those concerns are justified from my perspective. I do understand how they are from yours, however. And that is just fine, not just with me, but with "Abraham" too. In fact, they would say that your perspective is just as valuable as mine, as it adds to the variety of life and thus to the choices we can individually make in it.

I've been fascinated by the paranormal from a very young age, and I've read many new age books as an adult. I stayed away from the "channeled" stuff for a long time, I think mainly due to my Christian upbringing. (I always had a fear that somehow it might be 'satanic' or something silly like that.)

When I finally got over that fear, I picked up a copy of The Nature of Personal Reality by Jane Roberts.

I have to say it was the most amazing stuff I had ever read in the 'new age' genre. It was far more intelligent and articulate than anything I'd ever come across. Esther Hicks claims she was influenced by Jane Roberts, but as someone who's read all the Seth material, it's really a far cry from Jane Roberts' work.

For one thing, Jane always questioned Seth, the origin of Seth, if Seth was just a part of her own subconscious mind, and never said that Seth was some absolute source of knowledge. And in trance as Seth, Seth would say the same thing! "His" message was to trust yourself and the vitality of your own being. That your BELIEFS form your personal reality, not merely your thoughts. To NOT be afraid of negative thinking but examine your beliefs honestly.

"We must also remember, however, that in a fashion BELIEFS THEMSELVES ARE TOOLS, and that in some situations beliefs that seem quite negative can also clear the way for more beneficial ones." from The Way Toward Health by Seth/Jane Roberts.

"I am not saying that anyone should pretend that unfavorable circumstances do not sometimes exist, or that they may not be encountered in the past, present, or future. It is also true, however, that advantageous events occur with a far greater frequency than do negative ones - otherwise the world that you know simply would not exist. It would have disappeared in the throes of destruction or calamity." -- "Seth", from The Way Toward Health.

It's ridiculous to say that you have think positive thoughts all the time or bad things will happen to you. If Esther Hicks says this, she definitely didn't get it from Jane Roberts or the Seth material.

Jane Roberts never had expensive seminars, workshops, or cruises. She briefly had a free ESP class and a creative writing class that had a suggested donation of $2.50! I admire Jane in that she was very careful not to let herself or Seth be turned into some guru:

"...you must never consider me an infallible source. This material is more valid than any material possible on your plane, but it is nevertheless to some degree conditioned by the camouflage attributes of the plane." --"Seth", The Early Sessions

"Do not place the words of gurus, ministers, priests, scientists, psychologists, friends -- or my words -- higher than the feelings of your own being." --"Seth", The Nature of Personal Reality

The idea that you can just think yourself rich or healthy is also a distortion of the Seth material. According to the material, influencing physical constructions from the mind require a great deal of intensity, belief and expectation. They just don't materialize if you think about it or 'vibrate' in harmony with it.

I'm not here to promote the Seth material. I consider myself an atheist now, and although I still do admire Jane Roberts and what she did for the field of psychic phenomena, and her honesty and desire not to be looked at as an 'authority' on the soul, I now have a healthy skepticism about most new age ideas. Ironically, I think the Seth material made me a diehard skeptic. I learned to trust myself and not constantly look to others for wisdom or some final authority on life. People like the Hicks', Neale Donald Walsh and Ekhart Tolle do people a great disservice by claiming to have some ultimate authority and/or God on their side, or that they are speaking for God or 'source energy'.

Trust yourself! :)

It's really funny if you get one the older tapes when Esther was trying to sound like Jane Robert's Seth. The Abraham accent was real heavy and fake when she was channeling. I guess they found out people would believe anything and so she dropped most of the accent. Abraham was also predicting major earth changes in California at that time. That was popular with all the psychics in the 1980's.

It's sad that people blindly believe in these so called spiritual teachers without doing a little research. Look what happened to followers of another LOA guru, James Ray.

A woman I know, C, who is in another state now, is in communication with a mutual friend,V, who I talk to on a regular basis. Today V told me C is really into the Abraham channeling and cannot do one thing all day w/o referring to Abraham. She won't shop at thrift stores, or associate in any way with volunteer work because she said these things are associated with "lack" and negativity. How can volunteerism be a bad thing? What is the underlying motive of the Hicks to teach this?

I've attended a session with someone who was "channeling", in this case, an alien lifeform from far far away who spoke through telepathy and had no native tongue.

The "Channeler" slipped into his "trace" and IMMEDIATELY started speaking like someone from India! Huh! Why the accent, big guy?

All channeling is bullshit and robbery of the "less mentally aware".

I don't know Abraham but this is total and complete bullshit. Give us a sign, "oh great Abraham!", Make us a prediction! Tell us the past and future!

Wrong again, huh? Good job. I guess all the nasty skeptics like Sparky (Snarky?) have hit you with so much negative energy you failed miserably! Maybe your followers need to DOUBLE their "donations" to overcome Sparky's negative energy!

I think that human beings just seem to have an inbuilt proclivity to follows stuff... sometimes blindly. I simply think we should think before we step into anything.

Here are some basic warning signs:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.