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shakti
Grew up going to this church. I support you "isitacult". I don't really care about McArthur's theology, other than to say that it was mostly radical right-wing nutjob stuff.

McArthur's theology is green. Money, moolah, benjamins.

Still remember these almost exact words from the last time I attended a service.

"It's so wonderful to be here today... to bask in the words of the Lord... but that's not why we're here.
It's so wonderful to be here with our kids, our grandkids, our husbands and wives... but that's not why we're here.
There is a good reason that we're here today, to best glorify our relationship with the Lord... and that is THE OFFERING!"

Other things to consider:

1. Robert Vernon, disgraced and fired County Sherriff, was (and is?) a high-ranking member of the Church. He was fired partly for trying to purge the Dept. of all non-Christians and make sure that the only believers would advance were right-wing evangelicals.


[articles.latimes.com]

2. Only church in America to be sued for the suicide of a member.

Hi Shakti.

Thanks for contributing.

That comment on the offering does seem troubling by itself. I would need the full context to decide on that one. If a strong, disproportionate focus on the offering was a consistent attitude from the pulpit that would be a problem, especially if it was accompanied by a condemning attitude for failing to give sufficiently. Or if he meant that the offering is the only or the primary good reason we are here, that would be problematic, again, especially if it were typical. But if he was just saying that because it was the point in the service where the offering was taken and it is A good reason we are here and we are going to focus on that right now since it is time to take the offering, I think that would be alright.

I heard about the suicide thing also, and that bothers me a lot too. I don't know if it is possible to get all the necessary information on that. All I know is what was in the news report and newspapers are pretty much guaranteed to get something important wrong especially when dealing with churches. That is a grievous shame that it happened though and I suppose the question will always be there whether a better/different kind of counseling would have produced a better outcome. I am skeptical of neuthetic counseling. The only thing I really know about it is from a man who got involved in it as a pastor and became pretty harsh and unapproachable after. He was very condemning of medications for depression also. He acted like medications for mental/emotional problems were wrong and taking them was an affront to God. I found this really intolerable because I know someone who is really helped a lot by them. He is a different person when he takes his meds. He gets along well with his family and can think soundly. But when he doesn't take them he is a nightmare for them. Given that, I can see how neuthetic counseling could make a bad situation worse instead of better, especially if it ends up denying the person what would really help them. I don't know if the down on meds position is part of the neuthetic approach or if that pastor picked that up somewhere else. What really concerns me, and the question I would like to have an answer to is whether this man who suicided was told that any other kind of counseling or help was wrong and this was his only option. But I don't have enough information to be settled on that one way or the other (as seems to be too much the case with these aspects of MacArthur's ministry) and the information I need is really hard to come by.

I did not know about the sheriff. That is really disturbing. I will have to look into that.

Thanks for the information and the support.

" If a strong, disproportionate focus on the offering was a consistent attitude from the pulpit that would be a problem, especially if it was accompanied by a condemning attitude for failing to give sufficiently. "

-It was a consistent attitude.

" But if he was just saying that because it was the point in the service where the offering was taken and it is A good reason we are here and we are going to focus on that right now since it is time to take the offering, I think that would be alright."

-It was made clear that the whole point of the sermon leading up to that moment was about the offering. It was "THAT is why you are here". Pretty simple. And people pulled out their money and gave.


" I don't know if the down on meds position is part of the neuthetic approach or if that pastor picked that up somewhere else. What really concerns me, and the question I would like to have an answer to is whether this man who suicided was told that any other kind of counseling or help was wrong and this was his only option. But I don't have enough information to be settled on that one way or the other (as seems to be too much the case with these aspects of MacArthur's ministry) and the information I need is really hard to come by."

- I'm not going too deep into that one, and can't say I blame the church for his death. But I would say that the church inculcates a rather depressing worldview, and that the followers seemed to have something sucked out of them. It has caused significant problems in my family, which I don't want to go too deep into. The family member I was most concerned about no longer goes, and has found a church that fits their needs, and is happier for it.

"I did not know about the sheriff. That is really disturbing. I will have to look into that. "

-Here's an article on one of Vernon's proteges, who became chief of police of Portland. Vernon is mentioned, and Kroeker also belonged to Grace.

[www.wweek.com]

Kroeker's comments, made 11 years ago, are captured on several tapes, available through the Fellowship of Christian Peace Officers. On one of the tapes obtained by the Alliance, Kroeker calls homosexuality a "perversion" and says AIDS will claim millions of victims because society decided that "certain kinds of morality was not the affair of the state."

The comments brought criticism earlier this week. There may be more to come.

WW recently obtained additional tapes from the Fellowship that contain comments raising questions about Kroeker's views on women and parenting. On a tape titled "Family Discipline," Kroeker says parents need to set examples for their kids. "If you haven't figured out how to be a submissive wife...then [kids are] going to be confused in the way they approach their lives," he says. As for the husband, he says, "you've got the authority as the man in the house."

In that same tape, he also advocates corporal punishment, recounting, in a bemused tone, how he physically disciplined children with a 3-foot paddle at Hume Lake Christian Camp, where he and his wife volunteered for 10 years.

Kroeker's views seem at odds with City Hall's progressive image but were not unique in the LAPD. Kroeker has acknowledged that his mentor in Los Angeles was the controversial former Assistant Chief Robert Vernon, who retired in 1992 after his extreme anti-homosexual views became public. Both Kroeker and Vernon, who belonged to the 10,000 member Grace Community Church in the San Fernando Valley, were members of what former LAPD Assistant Chief David Dotson calls the department's "Born-Again Mafia."

[articles.latimes.com]

Among those present at the meetings, said Fetters, were current Deputy Chiefs Glenn Levant and Bernard Parks and former Assistant Chief Jesse Brewer, all of whom filed declarations last week saying that Vernon had injected his religious views into Police Department business.

Levant, Parks and Assistant Chief David Dotson, who last week filed a declaration claiming Vernon had favored fundamentalist Christian officers for promotion, are among the contenders to become the next chief of police. Vernon, also a candidate, has asserted the accusations against him are designed to hurt his chances. But Skip Miller, the city's attorney, said Vernon's contention was "bogus," and that Dotson, Levant and Parks came forth with their declarations last week in response to court-imposed deadlines.

[articles.latimes.com]

Gates Reprimands Aide for Using LAPD Files for Political Research
February 16, 1989|DAVID FREED and WILLIAM OVEREND, Times Staff Writers

Los Angeles Police Chief Daryl F. Gates said Wednesday that he has reprimanded his second-in-command, Assistant Chief Robert L. Vernon, for using a Police Department computer to research the backround of a political candidate in Pasadena.

Vernon, Gates said, intended to give to his Pasadena neighbors a computerized printout of newspaper stories and other publicly available documents relating to Michael Zinzun, a former Black Panther who is running for Pasadena's Board of City Directors.

At Vernon's request, the Police Department's Anti-Terrorist Division last week printed out 50 documents--156 pages in all--and gave them to Vernon. However, LAPD officials alerted Gates, who intervened before Vernon could pass on the data, according to the chief.

'Judgment Was Poor'

"While his motives were pure, his judgment was poor," Gates said of Vernon, a 34-year department veteran who has been considered a leading candidate to eventually become chief.

The rebuke comes at a time when Gates' interest in politics has stirred speculation on who might succeed him as chief, and department sources said the Zinzun matter would not help Vernon's chances.

Gates said he intends to ask that Vernon, 55, repay the Police Department for having printed out the articles on Zinzun. The bill is expected to be more than $300.

Zinzun played a central role in the dismantling of the LAPD's Public Disorder Intelligence Division (PDID), the forerunner of the Anti-Terrorist Division. The PDID came under fire for illegally spying on lawful citizens, and Zinzun was a plaintiff in a civil action against the unit.

On Wednesday, Zinzun condemned Vernon's action as "obvious misuse of taxpayer funds."

Gates said he intends to discuss the matter with the Los Angeles Police Commission, the civilian board that oversees the department.

"The system worked in this case," Gates said. "I verbally reprimanded Bob (Vernon) and we'll look at whether we'll formalize that. We have returned the stuff that was printed out to the files."

Gates said he did not know why Vernon's neighbors wanted the information on Zinzun.

Vernon did not respond Wednesday to telephone messages left by The Times.

A devout Christian and a lay minister in a fundamentalist church, Vernon in 1987 was accused by some in the Police Department of giving promotional preference to fellow Christians. He strongly denied those allegations.

.....Zinzun's Los Angeles-based organization, the Coalition Against Police Abuse, was the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union. The suit alleged that the PDID unit had spied illegally and kept files on hundreds of citizens. Some of those files had been removed by a PDID detective who was channeling the data to an ultra-right-wing organization.

In 1983, the city settled the ACLU lawsuit for $1.8 million and PDID was disbanded. In its place, the 45-member Anti-Terrorist Division was formed. Strict guidelines limiting access to the division's files were established at that time.

The unit, according to its desciption in the department manual, is responsible for collecting and analyzing information on "individuals and organizations which plan, perform, threaten, or attempt unlawful acts which can reasonably be expected to result in death, serious bodily injury, significant disruption to the public order, or significant property damage. . . . "

Called 'Outrageous'

On Wednesday, Paul Hoffman, an ACLU attorney who helped prepare those guidelines, called Vernon's use of department resources for personal reasons an "outrageous" violation of accceptable police conduct.

"One of the concerns I have is if he would so something that stupid just for his neighbors, what kind of information would he dig up for somebody with some real political clout," Hoffman said.

Thanks shakti. You gave me a lot of important info here and I appreciate it all. But, believe it or not, out of everything you said, I want to focus on this one thing because it really gets to the heart of what I am trying to find out about this church.

“and that the followers seemed to have something sucked out of them.”

That is what I was wondering about with asking what it is like at MacArthur's church. That is exactly what I wanted to know- is this the effect his teaching has on the people in his congregation? I know just what you are saying by that but I wouldn't have thought of the words for it. You hit the nail on the head there.

But I do want to just make sure I understand you right (even though I think I do already). You said that “the followers seemed to have something sucked out of them.” When you say “the followers”, how broadly do you mean that to go? Do you mean a few people here and there, more than a few but not enough to be characteristic of the group, or the congregation in general?

"That is what I was wondering about with asking what it is like at MacArthur's church. That is exactly what I wanted to know- is this the effect his teaching has on the people in his congregation? I know just what you are saying by that but I wouldn't have thought of the words for it. You hit the nail on the head there.But I do want to just make sure I understand you right (even though I think I do already). You said that “the followers seemed to have something sucked out of them.” When you say “the followers”, how broadly do you mean that to go? Do you mean a few people here and there, more than a few but not enough to be characteristic of the group, or the congregation in general?"

-Good questions.

1. I think this is the effect of a mix of Calvinism and dispensational nuttiness. I don't think MacArthur is unique. I think this teaching beats people down in general. I think the "anti-sex" aspects of fundamentalism do the biggest number on people. Even sex with a legal, married partner of the same sex seems to be frowned upon unless it is reproductive. Not atypical though of many Christian groups.

2. "Followers". Maybe not the appropriate term. I guess I'm just so cynical about religion in general, that I don't spend a lot of time parsing between "cults" and "traditional mainstream religion". Islam is a "traditional mainstream religion" that advocates killing homosexuals and uses charity to fund terrorism. The Catholic Church systematically prevents investigations into pedophile priests, yet "they are not a cult".

I think the bulk of the people are brainwashed by fundie Christianity, and not just by Macarthur. If he turned them off, they would find another equally harsh extremist. Not alleviating Macarthur of responsibility, just pointing out that the "followers" aren't just people who came in full of Christian tolerance and goodwill, then got brainwashed into intolerant bigots and homophobes. The kids, yes. The adults came looking for fire and brimstone and got it.

Unlike many of the cults, I have seen none of the pressure or retaliation against members. It may happen, but I'm unaware of it. They don't seem to focus in on individuals, getting their names, addresses, etc. You come, you sit, you listen, you pay your money, and hopefully you feel a little better about being a "born sinner", then go home and watch the afternoon NFL game. That was close to the experience of my family. At one point, I went to the Sunday school there, and remember having this former Green Beret Nam vet scream at us about salvation, which was the LAST time I went to Sunday School there. I put my foot down and freaked out about it. Eventually, I did the same for Grace itself and my parents surprisingly acquiesced. Went back a few years later to make them happy, and THAT was the one where the whole subject was the offering and "why we were here". Last time I went.

You could probably go for years, without anyone official knowing your name. When my family member left, it was without retaliation. None of this is meant to give Macarthur a pass, but just to be as honest and straightforward as I can possibly be.

My beef is less with Macarthur as an individual, then with Fundamentalism as a whole. He is not anomalous, he went to Bob Jones University, there are many of them.

Let me know if that helps or if you want further details.

Thanks shakti. That helps a lot. Thanks for your honesty. I understand your position and see how it affects your view of MacArthur.

I will say this for him- it is a point in his favor that there is no retaliation for leaving. I didn't even think of that before. I appreciate you pointing it out.

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pastrpath2
Dear Isitacult,

In my opinion their are many cult like aspects of Grace Community. My step daughter and son in law go there. They seem to be incouraged to judge everyone else's faith and theyconview to them they are not saved because they do not live Stepford wives kind of lives. Here are some other observations.

1. Corrupt Leadership
a. Pope like devotion of His followers
b. Can not be criticized
c. Writings treated as authoritative as Scripture

2.Scripture Twisting and Redefinition of Biblical Terms
a. Faith is the power of transformation and not the Holy Spirit is the
power of transformation
b. Repentance is turning from sin to be worthy of salvation -
instead of recongition that you are helpless to save yourself and need a savior.
c. Salvation requires Lordship Submission – or works righteousness
d. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a literal infilling but an
assumption of a person’s faith.
3. Doctrinal Deviation:
a. Lordship Salvation – Salvation by Works
b. Faith as a Substitute for the power of the Holy Spirit
c. Denies the reality of Holy Spirit experiences
4.Elitism:
a. Promotes the attitude of “We are the only true Christians and our church is
the only true church. And we have the only true Man of God.
5. Control System – Public Shaming – Small Group Shepherding
6. A False priesthood mediating to the congregation - Pastor tell people the will of God instead of encouraging a personal relationship with Christ.

Dear Isitacult,

I dont know when i have ever read a bigger list of lies and misstatements about someone as I read in the list above

i would be very careful in forming opinions about John Macarthur from what pastrpath2 is saying or arguing about the man and his ministry. I have been to his church, I have been to his conferences. I have read some of his books. i have alot of admiration for the man. He is one of the most humble people you could ever meet. It is not unusal to find him sitting in the middle seat on Southwest when he travels. JM does not like how people want to elevate him and his teachings. JM discourages that. But JMwill tel you that he is not the authority - Scripture is the authority.

I found myself wanting to join this forum just to defend JM after I saw the distortions posted above. This is really an outrage. These are false statements and i really question if this poster has ever been to GCC in LA.

I would be most interested in what Pastrpath2 thinks a church is? How should we define a church?

JM believes there is a biblical model for the church and he is doing his best to follow it. I travel alot in my work and I usually look on the JM seminiary webpage to find a Masters graduate church in the city that i am traveling- I will say that they are very consistent and very biblical on everything.

Perhaps I will find the time to answer ecah of the falsehoods in dept as some surely needs to - this is a false attack on a good man.

In following the thread it seems that Pastrpath2 is on a mission as he continues to distort JM's teachings and positions.

Anyway - I enjoy your forum and it definitely has a need in today/s post-modern world.

You people like isitacult and pastrpath2 are nuts!
It's not John's MacArthur's theology you disagree with, its the Theology of the Bible you reject.
If you disagree then post your theological positions right now, here so that every one can see the other side of the story.

BraveHeart

I was in this cult 12 years ago for 2 years when I got suckered into going to his college right out of high school. I haven't been to this board in awhile but I'm glad I've found others that are willing to talk about it. It is a very destructive counseling cult that masquerades as Christianity, and you are not told how they really believe until you have paid your money and moved onto the campus. After my folks gave their life savings to send me to "college" it was too late to leave. It has more in common with Scientology than it does Christianity, they make members refuse psychiatric treatment of any kind as well as sign a release just like Scientology. They offer a kind of counseling they call "Nouthetic" counseling or something like that where all problems in your life, be it depression, anxiety, etc. are said to be your fault and caused by unconfessed sin in your life, which you get rid of by confessing to your counselor. Counselors pay thousands of dollars to get degrees in this counseling. There have been two high profile suicides in the church, one of which occured while I was there when a girl named Angelica took an overdose of heroine in her dormroom.

They offer a very attractive pitch to go to their "college" and claim that it is non-denominational Christianity, in that they accept all denominations as long as you are Christian. In reality it is a way to slowly indoctrinate you into MacArthur's twisted belief system, which many accept within the first several months, but to the ones that don't they use very aggressive and hostile tactics to try to pressure you into accepting it. You are not permitted to question anything, and if you have doubts or disagreements with any of MacArthur's teachings or his staff it is said to be because of unconfessed sin in your life. It took many months of psychotherapy after I left this cult to get my life back in order. My therepist immediately recognized this as a cult when I explained to him what I went through.

I have been afraid to speak out because I know they will come up with some false witnesses to refute what I'm saying, but if I can find others that have had similar experiences I would not be afraid to speak out. If we could stop just one person from being taken in by this cult it would be worth it. I believe they should be allowed to practice whatever they want under freedom of religion, but not when it destroys people's lives, and not when they trap unsuspecting Christians into their scam.

What I went through there was horrifying and is much more than I can speak of here, but if you have had bad experiences there please send me a PM, I would like to meet others that have had bad experiences with either Masters or Grace Community. Even though it has been 12 years since I left I still feel the bitterness and wish there was a way I could help others by preventing them from experiencing what I went through.

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isitacult?
Thanks shakti. That helps a lot. Thanks for your honesty. I understand your position and see how it affects your view of MacArthur.

I will say this for him- it is a point in his favor that there is no retaliation for leaving. I didn't even think of that before. I appreciate you pointing it out.

This is completely false. They do retaliate for you leaving.

The church threatened me with litigation while I was leaving over something totally made up. Also, one of my friends got out six months before I did and they told all his friends he renounced Christianity (which was false, he just renounced MacArthur's beliefs) when in reality he went back to his home church he was in before the cult. He lost all his friends over that, who completely shunned him. I was asked by them once to separate from my father because he disagreed with MacArthur's lordship views. I met a man in my support group whose wife left him because she joined the church and he didn't agree with the theology.

Please do not pay attention to what they are posting on here, this church does nothing but ruin lives. Myself and two friends I made there nearly had our lives ruined, and I know there were more that left because the pressure to accept this man's lies were too great. Every point pstrpath2 gave is 100% true and then some.