Many thanks everyone for your help. This forum has been a godsend to me. I will eagerly look for the links on CJ Mahaney and Charismatic Chaos (a book she recommended that I read some time ago).

mhbm

As the Christian conference circuit becomes more and more lucrative, it's interesting how MacArthur has broadened his associations to include the types of men whom he labeled false teachers and heretics earlier in his career. It's odd that he gives these guys a pass on many primary doctrines that they do not hold in common with him. He invites them to speak at his college, at his seminary, at his annual Shepherds' Conferences and at the youth retreats GCC sponsors. I've tried to understand what these men do have in common, and while I've probably missed a lot of things two commonalities really stand out: (1) all of these men are hyper authoritarian patriocentrists just like MacArthur, and (2) all of them are (small c) charismatic celebrities with large fan bases among upper-middle class evangelicals, just like MacArthur. Big fan base = big money from book sales and conference fees. All of them expand their fan bases by hitching their wagons to each other, endorsing each other's books and promoting each other's speaking engagements. Classic "branding" for profit.

Heres some stories of sexual abuse by SGrace hyper-authoritarian victims
(hint- women are not "worth" as much as men in these neo-reformed churches)

CJ Mahaney is the leader of this movement, and just took a paid sabbatical to self reflect on his failings.
Hmm, sounds like a nice vacation to me...where can I get a gig like that?
Do a horrible job, morally- spiritually -ethically, and get a 10 month vacation for it?
But hes good friends with Macarthur and still is speaking at his conference.

[www.sgmsurvivors.com]

I will send more info along....

gtw?

Here is excellent example of how John Macarthur speaks out of both sides of his mouth.....

In response to the question, “Since you wrote Charismatic Chaos we have seen the unexpected confluence of Reformed theology with charismatic beliefs (such as in the Sovereign Grace family of churches). If you were to write the book today, how would you affirm both love and critique for today’s Reformed Charismatics?,

” Dr. MacArthur replies:

I would affirm my love and appreciation for C. J. Mahaney, Wayne Grudem, John Piper, and other conservatives in the continuationist camp. I consider these men to be friends and allies for the sake of the gospel. Charismatic Chaos was primarily written against the excesses of the broader Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. And those excesses are not what these men are best known for.

But, I would still challenge these men to reconsider their position on the charismatic gifts. I am convinced that the charismatic movement opened the door to more theological error than perhaps any other factor in the twentieth century (including liberalism, psychology, and ecumenism). That’s a bold statement, I know. But once you allow experientialism to gain a foothold, the results are disastrous.

Moreover, I am thoroughly convinced that the biblical description of the charismatic gifts is incompatible with the charismatic gifts practiced in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches today. For example, Acts 2 is explicit in describing the gift of tongues as the ability to speak previously unlearned foreign languages. The rest of the New Testament affirms this same understanding (as does the testimony of the church fathers). But that is the very opposite of the nonsensical gibberish that characterizes modern glossolalia.

So I would challenge them to explain why they hold on to a modern practice that, in reality, has no biblical precedent—especially when that modern practice is the gateway to all sorts of theological error.

~So what is "demonic" in every other chrismatic church, is O-Kaay sorta -if you are a calvinist.~ gtw?
Hes throughly convinced?

Heres is John Macarthur on Chrismatics.....

The Charismatic Reproduction of Corinth

I'm afraid that what has happened today in the Charismatic movement is just a reproduction of exactly what happened in Corinth. Because of a deadness in the church, because of years of ignorance of the true work of the Holy Spirit, because of a lack of good Bible teaching, and because of the dearth of anything really significant going on in the church, people in the church began to reach out to feel God and to sense His reality. Well, that just paved the way for Satan's counterfeit to come flooding in. As in Corinth, the Charismatic movement has married the system of pagan religion with Christianity. They have developed a sensual, feeling-oriented, experiential, erotic kind of approach to Christianity, and call it the work of the Holy Spirit. However, it is most likely the counterfeit of Satan.

mhbm,

Just to condense what John Macarthur is saying:

" Any Christian who thinks they are having a direct
encounter with the Living God,
through feelings, experience or prayer, is most likely
interacting and being deceived by satan."

To me, this would insure that followers of John
macarthur would make sure they don't have any
feelings whatsoever, they might be doing
something satanic.

And...if the Holy Spirit was to actually move in
someone life, the follower of John Macarthur
would be frightened, not blessed.

What does a MacArthurite have left in such a sterile,
non-feeling, "God in a box" religion?

It's very very sad.

Love your daughter,
love can feed her starving soul.
Maybe not today, but eventually,
she might get the message.
Knowledge puffs up, love builds up.

Very Truly Yours,

gtw?

Gtw, thanks so much for these insights. I struggle with how to love her when the communication has been all but cut off. She is unhappy with conversation about anything other than condemning me. I have tried to keep it on a more cheerful level like discussing my granddaughter, her pregnancy, or what is going on in their lives, but it always comes around to the judging and criticizing of my associations. I truly believe that if I were to tell her I have resigned from this volunteer ministry, that it would not make a difference. She wound find some other reason to condemn me, and the outcome would be the same.

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teacher
hi all,the idea for an informative awareness web is developing but we really need people to help us.you will remain anonymous but we need people to write experiences and truth.please think about being part of this!

Teacher -

GODSPEED TO THAT IDEA!! May I suggest a few things, in light of the fact that I've been exposing a small cult for the past 21 years ( [www.eth-s.com] ), 12 of which have been on the net?
1. Do NOT use Facebook or social media. Set up your own website, that way - as far as what I know about the internet - it will show up "better" in the search engines. Don't know if you can do it with social media, but you can register a website, so that the search engines pick it up quicker.
2. Let people decide if they want to use their real names or user names. I NEVER post anonymously on sites when I'm posting about the cult I was in. I don't fear the maggots. Their bark is worse than their bite.
3. In my report, one of the things I mentioned was the financial dishonesty of the cult I was in, mentioning at least 2 specific crimes. The cult obtained a copy of my report less than 2 months after I sent it out. I've exposed them on a LOT of sites. My point is this: I have freedom of speech AND THEY KNOW IT. They've never threatened me with a lawsuit. Other cults may THREATEN a lawsuit, but they almost NEVER actually do sue.

Mark

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gracetowho?

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Lass o' the Glen
mhbm -- It's been my experience that attempts to dissuade MacArthur followers from believing the false teaching only causes them to hang on tighter to it. They are convinced that they alone possess God's truth, and that anyone who doesn't believe as they do is a false Christian. I myself was very stubborn in this regard, to which my family and friends can attest. If your daughter likes to research things, you might ask her to look into MacArthur's close association with C.J. Mahaney in light of the pending SGM sex abuse lawsuit. You could also ask her about MacArthur's inviting Douglas Wilson, a self-described paleo-Confederate and Federal Vision theology apologist, to speak at The Master's College Creation Symposium this Saturday. The Holy Spirit used my own investigations into these and other MacArthur associations to open my eyes and help me break free.

Mnbm, I would tend to agree with LOTG, his close association to CJ Mahaney is hypocrisy in the highest, as Mahaney has covered up for so many sexual preverts in his organization, the real kicker is that John Macarthur Does Not believe in spiritual gifts and condemns those that do as -Deluded, or Demon possessed, in his book Charismatic Chaos.

So why does CJ Mahaney get a pass?

There is no answer for this extreme hypocrisy.

I tend to give people unbiased information about the false belief system or destructive church groups so they can make an informed decision, not based on my own opinion.
Scientology is a secular humanistic cult, so it really is not a good comparision, nor can plumbing the depths of that kooky group be helpful to convince your daughter of its similarities to JM.

Links to follow about CJ Mahaney and Chrismatic Chaos quotes to follow.

gtw?

Just a few notes here...
Charismatic Chaos, as well as the Creation symposium, and all other comparitive religion debates are all ways to slip "Lordship Salvation" in to those who have not yet accepted it. For instance, many people have relatives that join a charismatic church and are concerned whether or not this is true Christianity, so they will go to a Christian bookstore and pick up a copy. After reading the book it convinces them how intelligent MacArthur is and is a good intro to convince them to purchase "Faith Works," "The Gospel According to Jesus," and "Biblical Counseling." These books will introduce them to the Lordship movement and get them into a church that teaches this, possibly even getting them into the college or counseling program. Also, comparitive religion helps convince them that all other Christianity is slipping deeper and deeper away from the truths of Lordship Salvation.

When I was in the hot button at the time was infant baptism, and MacArthur went in and debated RC Sproul on the subject, and I believe the ECT movement was also debated at the time.

Scientology is actually a good comparison to this group as they are both counseling cults, the difference being GCC hides behind a veneer of Christianity. The proof is in this link:
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/20/us/church-sued-over-a-suicide-says-it-will-change-training.html

After my psychiatrist told me that MacArthur took much of his doctrine from L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology I decided to do some research with both anti and pro Scientology websites, here's what I found compared to what I went through during my time in Lordship Salvation:

When I entered counseling at GCC I had to sign a contract saying the church would not be sued if I were injured or committed suicide while in their care. Scientology critics call this document the "Lisa clause." At times my counselor would expect me to confess sins to him, looking for things from my life for me to confess. When I had nothing my counselor and the witness (usually a Wow Staff member, the elite Lordship believers at the college) would occasionally become aggressive, yelling at me until I came up with something. Scientology critics say Scientology calls this practice a "sec check."

If you did not top your last progress or committed the same sin two counseling sessions in a row it was known as "stumbling." Stumbling three times meant you were to be shunned or "treated as a pagan or a tax collector." The shunning did not end until you showed your counselor enough improvement. The same treatment was given to any who disagreed with Lordship Salvation, meaning if any friends or family disagreed you were to break off ties until they accepted the doctrine. Scientology critics say this is called "disconnection" in Scientology speak.

Seeing a psychiatrist is prohibited, since MacArthur believes they are evolutionists and are trying to infiltrate the church. In fact, one article on the GCC site says accepting the word of a psychiatrist is the equivalent to adding to Scripture. The belief is that all mental illness and life problems are caused by unconfessed sin in your life. By going through the counseling you are supposed to be able to be cured of these problems. The Kenneth Nally lawsuit mentioned above was because Nally was told his problems were caused by sin and could be cured by Nouthetic Counseling. This is a gray area in the United States because if MacArthur & Co. would have lost it would interfere with freedom of religion, which is valued in the US. If you look at a similar lawsuit for Lisa MacPherson that Scientology had (which I believe was in the mid-90s) the court ruled in favor of the church for the same reason. If you are ill you have every right to refuse treatment and depend on religion solely to be healed, and if any court rules against that they are interfering with your freedom of religion. So, while GCC should have been held liable for malpractice in this case, courts cannot rule when religion is involved. GCC told the NY Times it would change its practices, but when I got into the cult a decade later they were still practicing the same counseling, only making you sign a waiver beforehand.

All of these practices bear a striking resemblance to Scientology, and since this cult was founded much later it appears many of the practices were copied and adapted for a "Christian" perspective. (and no, despite what the museum propaganda said, they weren't founded in 1927) Also, in my opinion, Scientology is more honest because they flat out tell you on their website how your life will be if you join. If I would have known how GCC/Masters was I would never have joined. I think prospective students should be given a packet, maybe even a copy of "Faith Works," and told all of the practices at GCC that are peculiar compared to the rest of Christianity.

So, considering all of this, I don't understand how Scientology is not a good comparison. I think in terms of the commitment involved Jehovah's Witness may be a good comparison as well, since the believer is expected to do so much work for the group as well. (See "Character of Genuine Saving Faith" in the back of the MacArthur Study Bible.)

We've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but the list in the MacArthur study bible that allegedly proves/disproves your salvation under the Lordship Salvation beliefs, and is what the counselors and most Lordship believers go by when evaluating how they are doing would be good to have in light of this thread, so I thought I would post it here. As a quick disclaimer, all commentary on the list is solely John MacArthur's and I do not agree with the following material or the way the Scriptures listed are interpred. So, here it is:

The Character of Genuine Saving Faith

I. Evidences That Neither Prove Nor Disprove One's Faith

Visible Morality: Matthew 19:16-21; 23:27.
Intellectual Knowledge: Romans 1:21; 2:17ff.
Religious Involvement: Matthew 25:1-10
Active Ministry: Matthew 7:21-24
Conviction of Sin: Acts 24:25
Assurance: Matthew 23
Time of Decision: Luke 8:13, 14

II. The Fruit/Proofs of Authentic/True Christianity:

Love for God: Psalm 42:1ff; 73:25; Luke 10:27; Romans 8:7
Repentance from Sin: Psalm 32:5; Proverbs 28:13; Romans 7:14ff; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:8-10
Genuine Humility: Psalm 51:17; Matthew 5:1-12; James 4:6, 9ff.
Devotion to God's Glory: Psalm 105:3; 115:1; Isaiah 43:7, 48:10ff.; Jeremiah 9:23, 24; 1 Corinthians 10:31
Continual Prayer: Luke 18:1; Ephesians 6:18ff.; Philippians 4:6ff.; 1 Timothy 2:1-4; James 5:16-18
Selfless Love: 1 John 2:9ff, 3:14; 4:7ff.
Separation from the World: 1 Corinthians 2:12; James 4:4ff.; 1 John 2:15-17, 5:5
Spiritual Growth: Luke 8:15; John 15:1-6; Ephesians 4:12-16
Obedient Living: Matthew 7:21; John 15:14ff.; Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 1:2, 22; 1 John 2:3-5

If List I is true of a person and List II is false, there is cause to question the validity of one's profession of faith. Yet if List II is true, then the top list will be also.

III. The Conduct of the Gospel:

Proclaim it: Matthew 4:23
Defend it: Jude 3
Demonstrate it: Philippians 1:27
Share it: Philippians 1:5
Suffer for it: 2 Timothy 1:8
Don't hinder it: 1 Corinthians 9:16
Be not ashamed: Romans 1:16
Preach it: 1 Corinthians 9:16
Be empowered: 1 Thessalonians 1:5
Guard it: Galatians 1:6-8

Adapted from John MacArthur, The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 2190.