Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by: gracetowho? ()
Date: January 19, 2013 01:52PM


I am new to this forum. In act, I didn't know about this until a couple of days ago. I have some information that might help you to evaluation both Grace Community Church and John MacArthur. I was a member of Grace for twenty years. I know John personally and have attended studies at the Master's College under their Professional Bible Program. If anyone would like to hear my perspective, please let me know.


If you are an Ex-member who has escaped, please Do Share your story!


Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Date: January 20, 2013 05:46AM

Hi Gracetowho:

Let me say this. Grace was the name of the church before John got there. The church was started by six families in a chicken coup and they believed in the Grace of God, so they named the church because they wanted to reach out to the community. Now Grace is not an issue at this church. There is no grace, there is no love, there is no Holy Spirit.

I arrived at Grace in 1973. John had been at the church for three years. I had gone to Grace before John arrived before I went to Bible school in 1966. The church was friendly and had about 300 members. I first came in contact with the MacArthurs through John's dad Dr. Jack. When I left school, I went to a couple of youth rallies where John was the main speaker. This was before he became Senior Pastor at Grace. His messages were very biblical as far as I could tell, but what struck me was his arrogance in his preaching. I decided I was not going back to Grace when I found out he was going to be pastor. There were two pastors before him. Dr. Don Householder was very compassionate and loved people. The church as very close-knitted. I can remember them having pot lucks so that everyone could get to know each other. It reminded me of Acts 2. Dr Don. prayed for me for six years for me to come to know Christ as my Lord and Savior. He knew me through my mother and neighbors who were quite involved. I resisted and resisted until I went forward at the Billy Graham Crusade. Dr. Don was thrilled. At the time I was in the service so I didn't have much church experience. After I got out, I attended Grace for three weeks because I had been accepted to Bible School in Colorado. Dr. Don passes away and Grace had a new pastor, Richard Elvie. He was very encouraging to me in my desire to go into full time Christian service.

I first found out about Calvinism and Reformed Theology because more of my professors at school came from Dallas Theological Seminary. So when I came to Grace for good in 1973, I was familiar with their TULIP type attitude toward the Bible. I said earlier that I didn't want to go to Grace because of John's arrogance. But I had to lay that aside because John helped me through a divorce with his teaching in Ephesians 5 and 1 Corinthians 7 on what God Thinks of Divorce after my first wife left me due to the false teaching of another church where the pastors where attending Talbot Theological Seminary, the same seminary John came from. To tell you the truth, I now call it a cemetery. The reason is, Reformed Theology takes compassion and turns it into stoicism, which in my opinion is deadly if you are to call yourself a child of God. When I first arrived at Grace, I ate up what MacArthur said on his tapes. I loved his teaching in the gospel of John and Ephesians because I learned so much about who I was in Christ. Ever since I went forward at the Crusade, I wanted to know God and I wanted to know the Word of God. John MacArthur helped me with this to some extent. That is what drew me to his teaching. Most of the people on staff were home grown. They all attended Talbot. They would meet at Grace and go down to Talbot in a van. What I noticed in these men is that they became products of John MacArthur. They were indoctrinated with Reformed Theology and when they spoke, it was almost like John spoke through them except he was more skilled in communication and confidence. I hope that makes sense. John found other churches for them to speak and many of them got their so called call from John's reputation.

Before 1985, Grace had an evangelism program where you as a member could get trained to share the gospel. I say this because before 1985 the focus was on the church, the body of Christ. John would have a section in the service called the living church where people in the congregation could share what God is doing in their lives. However, after the Master's College came into play that all changed. Along with the school, the focus of ministry changed. There was no more evangelistic trainings, no more living church. The focus was on the college. John would talk strictly about the school. Master's College this and Master's College that. Then I saw elder splits because some didn't like what John was doing. If you didn't like what John was doing, you were out the door. If you didn't abide to the standards of John's rules tou were disciplined. There were so many families that were ruined because of John's stoic attitude about the Bible. The more Grace grew, the more complex the church got. You saw older people leaving, many of which I knew because I worked with their kids in AWANA (20 years at that church). In 1990 my wife and I left Grace and went to a church in Washington state where the pastor was a graduate at the seminary at Master's. Oh yes I forgot about the seminary. That was another change. In stead of the focus being on Grace as a church, it was on Grace as an institution. John brought men from outside to teach the students and along with those came a lot of different ideas such as neuthetic counseling which was originated by Jay Adams. I read the book, and to tell you the truth it made me sick because it had such a hunanistic view of what I believe God desires for our life if we are to know Him. Anyway, at this church in Washington, I could see in this pastor the same dictatorship that I began to see in John. Only, I was blinded in the case of John because I loved the church and I loved the teaching and I knew John to some extent as a person. The problem was, the more Grace became institutionalize, the less personal John became and the more judgmental he became. I didn't see this until I saw it in this other pastor in Washington. There were cell groups. Does that sound familiar. Have you heard of the cell groups they have at Grace in the singles fellowship classes called the Guild? Anyway, this pastor would have facilitators in each group. You had to take the pastors messages and in your journal write down sin problems you are dealing with then report those to the group. The facilitators would then report it to this pastor so that if you left, he could use this against you and all you an apostate. If was awful. This was a man that was taught by the seminary under John MacArthur. Because of my Bible knowledge, I knew this was wrong and because I was a God seeker, I began to study the Bible on my own. I wanted to be a good Berean so I studied the book of John. I let the Spirit of God be my teacher. I can tell you that it changed my life. It drew me closer and closer to God by allowing the Spirit in my inner man teach me the depths of Christ. I don't want to go into that now. What I did want to share is, I saw things at this Washington church and I wrote John MacArthur several times. He wrote me a couple of times, but the attitude was, "What can I do about it?"

In 1993 I left this church. I felt so free when I got out of there. A few weeks later my dad got sick, so my wife and I left Washington and came back to California. I wanted to go back to Grace. When we got back, the whole of Grace had changed. The elders were no more people grown from the local assembly. Grace became a zoo on Sunday mornings. John's teachings were more judgmental that teaching about Christ in you the hope of glory. Someone mentioned about the worship of the offering plate. I was there the Sunday morning when John said that. That is absolutely accurate. The idea of works salvation was not always there at Grace. It became more evident when John started going to other religious organizations and brought men from outside to the Shepherd's conferences. The whole of the church now is a works system of Christianity. It is strictly sin and sin replacement and obedience. When I left Grace in 1996, John called me and told me he loved me. A few weeks later, he indirectly called me as having seducing spirits. Where is the love in that! That is what John has become. A dictator, with a humanistic view of the Bible. He is quick to judge others and slow to take constructive criticism from others. You just don't tell MacArthur he is wrong. The seminary is like he wants to make little MacArthurites to follow his path of thinking. I found myself trapped when I was at this church. I thank God that the Spirit gave me the wisdom to get out in 1996 because I understand it is worse now. I can tell you this. In the 20 years I was at Grace, I never heard John speak of a time in his life when he realized he was a sinner who completely falls short of the glory of God and that he repented and fell on his knees as a beggar. In a testimony with Phil Johnson a few years ago, I remember him saying, "There was never a time in my life I didn't love Christ." If I read Romans 1 correctly, there is not a person alive who before he resigns himself to God's truth that does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness and that includes your truly. However John does not admit that about himself. It is like because he is called to preach he is exempt. He calls his calling to the ministry a "special grace." What is so special about how God deals with him and how God deals with us? That is my question. And in the twenty years, I never saw a humble, meek man in the pulpit. On several occasions he would share something like this. "Well, just when I am ready to get into a good sin, I think of this Bible verse or that Bible verse, and that temptation is gone." To tell you the truth I didn't think any sin was good. God is the opposite of sin, so why call sin good? Also, I don't think anyone is exempt from sin. He thinks he is exempt from this and because he has a special calling he has the right to judge others. However, he cannot even judge himself.

I could say more, but I'll let you make comments and we can discuss this more. I love John and I love that church at least for what it was. I still have friends there. I have kids that I ministered to and have grown up that I worked with in AWANA. I am sadden to have to talk about someone I admired for so long and a church where I first went to when I came to know Christ as my Lord and Savior. However, when I hear about John and Grace, I get stirred up. I have written to him several times and never gotten a response until last week. I won't share the letter now, but I will say it wasn't very nice.

I think the more we can expose this man, the more people who have been influenced by him around the world can be free to allow the Holy Spirit to lead their lives in righteousness, holiness and true godliness because the only way that can happen is if God operates his life in us through His Spirit and not through the teachings of Reformed Theology, or a works based salvation. I think a lot of people that go to Grace or churches that are influenced by Grace or by John MacArthur need to be more aware of what is happening there otherwise when they face Christ after they die, they are going to beg like the rich man in Luke 16.

I hope this isn't so long that it bores you. I hope this was a help. Most of what I have read on this forum is very accurate. If you have questions, feel free to let me know.

Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by: gracetowho? ()
Date: January 20, 2013 07:52AM

Hello MOTG,

Wow, what a sad but ringingly true commentary of the man who is the " pope of protestantism."

Several of us have been victims of the "mini Johns" he sends out, he does many many takeovers of churches with his
Disciples that come out of masters college.

I do not know him, but was treated so badly and in a very very evil but similiar way,
2000 miles apart from Jmac cloned churches,
Thats How i put it together, JMac is the author of this evil.

If I see any quotes, literature or john mac bible studies at a church, i hit the floor to run out, hes in the middle of
A takeover with a minion.

Tell me, i have seen him teach on a few youtubes, he reeks of pride and arrogance and sarcasm,
why do people love him soooo much?


Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Date: January 20, 2013 10:55AM


By the way, I love your title. The radio ministry is anything but Grace to You as you know.

To answer your question. I can think of a few reasons and I'll share those with you.

First, as large as Grace is, few really have a good view of the Bible. They rely so much on John's teaching them that they cannot discern humanism from true spiritually which I believe can only be discerned by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I think this is true whether you are a member of the congregation, or at either school. Most of the students are young. They haven't been seasoned so it is easy of John to sink his teeth into their minds and presto, they become mini Johns as you said. This is why you really have to study the word and let the Holy Spirit teach you the depths of God. I didn't do that the first 17 years I was at Grace. I got caught up in the web of thinking John had the ultimate truth. I can remember one time going into a Burger King and this fellow dressed in a police uniform started talking about John MacArthur. This was after my wife and I left. By his conversation, you would have thought that you were at the Vatican and worshiped the pope. MacArthur could do no wrong. That is how convincing he can be to his people. He appears to have the Bible down cold that is very appealing to a person who is young and searching. To me, that is a crime because these people are getting the wrong information from a guy to is worse than a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Second, John does so much criticizing of national groups and national disasters that it makes you feel safe to be in a place where God is blessing in the midst of a nation that is falling apart on so many fronts as you know. MacArthur uses the Bible to spill out the judgment of God on anything that will make him an authority of God. He will take scripture out of context and skip portions of scripture to get from one point to another. I don't read many of his commentaries because like you I run the other way due to the fact that I know he is bias on so many issues that are controversial. He makes you think he is an expert on all human issues and that God is using him to judge sin and the world in that respect. Talk about the power of the god of this world. He is it. However, that makes people feel good about themselves as long as they side with him.

Third, to go along with that, the church believes so much on disciple and obedience that if you get out of line one time, you are named in front of thousands of people. I personally do not believe Matthew 18 speaks of church discipline. The context has nothing to do with a church as we think of it today. Yet, Grace uses this to extreme in people who are a threat to John's principles and rules. Those that bear witness to this name calling have to feel pretty about themselves that someone else is called out and not them. That has to make them feel they are pretty secure between them and God. I know of at least five families personally who have gotten divorces because Grace has called out one member leaving the other member feel he has the right to divorce even though John preaches against divorce. The kids of one family of which I have worked with in AWANA, all began using drugs because they could not cope with what was going on between their parents. But this part is kept quiet to the rest of the congregation.

Fourth, the Shepherds Conference has a big impact with the members and attenders at Grace. Having pastors come in from other parts of the country gives you the idea that God is really at work at this church just like He was when Paul went out on his three missionary journeys. Believe me, there is a lot of difference between the gospel of the first century church and the message that John MacArthur teaches. Again, there is security that God is working at this church and that explains why they love him so much and keep coming back.

Fifth, they have a very good children's programs and they have so many other programs so that people can get involved. You feel like you are serving the Lord when you can get involved. It is a place where you can drop off your kids and do what you want to do and know that people will take care of them while your doing something else. I have had parents come to me in appreciation for loving their children. That makes me feel good as a servant of God. That is the part I miss at that church. John has a way of making you feel you belong there when he exalts the ministries of Grace from the pulpit.

Sixth, the schools have a big role in keeping people at the church. Many of the students go there and many of the young people from families that are members of Grace go there. With the Master's College and Master's Seminary, you get the idea that God is at work and there is no other place to go to get God's blessing. I don't know if they have this anymore, but they used to have an opportunity sheet. The purpose is to either submit needs you may have or submit solutions you may have available to meet a need. It would sort of be like they did in Acts 2 except instead of the Holy Spirit doing the work and filling the need of all so that there was no need and they could worship together and learn about who they were is Christ, there was partiality because the seminary students always got priority, while others were left out. However, that part was hidden. To the majority of the people, they never read the part about the priority of students. It said, "Good for seminary students." That gave you the idea that there was impartiality. However, if youi went to the person offering the service, they would say, "Oh this is just for seminary students." I know because my wife and I did this and even though this place was still available, we were left out. So the opportunities are in front of you which makes you think there is oneness, but underneath that the majority of the people cannot see, there is favoritism. I believe God calls us to be one with each other. The problem is, there is no Holy Spirit, so there can be no divine leading to help you be a good servant or fulfill a need you may have. However, to others this sounds so good and makes you think that God is actively involved.

Seventh, the largeness of the church. It kind of makes you think of the feeding of the five thousand where the more people that came the more Jesus fed them. With so many people who come you get the idea that the Bible is really being taught properly and people are hungry to hear, so they come. The problem, they can't discern truth and error. So they love John because he gives them a pseudo truth out of his ever so convincing Greek, Hebrew syntax study of scripture. It makes you think he really knows what he is talking about in God's word. And people who hear him on the radio get the idea, especially when you listen to Phil Johnson that MacArthur is going to give you what you need to glorify God. The two make a great pair when it comes to convincing people that God is really giving you Grace to who? A great title,

There are probably other reasons, but those are a few I can think of as I have observe over the years.

Believe me this is not fun to talk about because of my tithes with this church, but I have to expose it for what it is.

I hope this helps.

Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by: gracetowho? ()
Date: January 21, 2013 04:41AM


Glad you like my name, it sorta encapsulates my whole
opinion.....Who exactly is the one doling out the Grace of God?
And to whom? Does John MacArthur have some sort of
franchise set up with the God of the Universe?

"Grace to you" reminds me of Lucy's lemonade stand
from peanuts cartoon strip
" all you can drink lemonade"
is what the sign says, then,
while someone is drinking it,
she grabs it back and says
" that's all YOU can drink!"
Ok -enough humor, now my rage...

I am so angry that this whitewashed sepulcher
is so taking over Christendom.
No Love
No Holy Spirit
No Joy
Fear and Condemnation for those struggling with mental
health - depression- anxiety,
I could weep for hours over the poor
women I've counseled who
were in such horrible bondage
because they were depressed...
therefore in sin
( according to the idiotic theology of JM)
and were not allowed to take medication...
because....that too is a sin -
so they became suicidal :"(

Yes John MacAuthur you make them twice
the child of a living Hell!!!!

That man makes life a living hell for the most needy
hurting and vulnerable Christians - I pray someone
presses criminal charges
against that miserable misery making Pharisee.
THEN I hope someone sits with him in his prison cell and
gives him nouthetic counseling
after he's become someone's girlfriend and is despair over
getting raped every night.

Yes John Macarthur there's some things
that can cause despair
and telling people they don't "understand
the bible enough" is
the cause of their problems is repugnant.
you are repugnant. How dare you!!!!

Ok...I'm back now MOTG, sorry for the rant, the moderator
probably wont post it anyway, but I hope he posts part of it.

I'm sure that the letter he wrote you was what prompted
you to look for anybody else who sees the light..

but now, how can we help you?

BTW!! It's ok to be depressed - , no condemnation
for those inChrist Jesus, we are free here.

Very Truly Yours,


Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Date: January 21, 2013 01:26PM

Hi Gtw:

I am not depressed. Actually,I'm excited because of what the Spirit of Christ is teaching me through the scriptures, now that I am free from man's opinion and let God be my teacher. He works from inside of my soul to teach me the scriptures like the apostles were taught in the first century church. We all have a mind that takes in information. However, there is information that comes from the five senses which is where I believe JM comes from with his Reformed Theology and neuthetic counseling and the Holy Spirit working from within to teach us the depths of God from inside. One thing I am learning is how free we are to let the word of Christ to dwell in us richly. That keeps my mind focused on who I am in Christ despite all the frailties of JM, although he doesn't think he has any, and Grace in general. Romans 8:1 is a great comfort to me. "There is now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." What happens if you are JM? Let me share a little about what I found out. A few years ago, he had an interview with Phil Johnson. I'm you know you he is. Anyway it was all about John's conversion. Phil asked JM if he remembered a time when he made a decision to know Christ. JM said, "I actually do not remember. I was raise by godly parents and they lived out the Christian life in front of me." JM's dad was a preacher and JM's grandfather was a preacher. JM said, "Actually I think I have always been a Christian" My response to that is "All have sinned and fall of the glory of God." We all have to acknowledge that we are sinners and come to a point of repentance meaning humility, brokenness and beg for the truth of redemption in our lives. We have suppreseds the truth in unrighteousness and therefore need what Christ has done by his shed blood and his sacrificial death to be made sin for us and then to understand that because He was raised from the dead we are raised with Him. That is Romans 5-8 in a nutshell. That is why we are not condemned because He has paid the price for us. But according to John's testimony he is exempt from that. He has taken this and run with it to the point that he has become God of all churches and God of all people who come to shepherds conferences and without even any repentance or brokenness. "Oh, I don''t ever remember a time I didn't love Christ." This is a sign of an unregenerated dictator using God's word as an imposter. Remember, Satah appears as an angel of light.

I know a lot of people still at Grace. The problem is and I fell into this until the Holy Spirit changed by life, is you get trapped into his confidence in scripture and the color code of his beautiful words. It is like you are lured in and then hooked with no way out. The church that I went to in Washington state helped me prepare for John when I came back. I was driven to study the word because of the imprisonment I was in. I studied John's gospel and that is when I allowed the Spirit to be my teacher just like Jesus told the disciples in John 14-16. While at Grace you are locked up into his teaching and his web. Now I can know the fullness of truth and let the Spirit set me free to worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

Since I know John, I have attempted to write him on several occasion. I really did not expect to get an answer, but I did so I want to share it with you. It sort of fits in with what you said that JM has set some kind of franchise with the God of this universe. Only it is not with our Father, because God doesn't treat people like JM does. JM is more the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4-4). Anyway I tried to confront him on issues of scripture and on his judgemental attitude and this is what he said:

"I just want to express my sadness that you have the attitude that you do towards me and towards the church. Where all of this comes from I'm not certain, but I am certain that I can't do anything to remedy it nor will I defend myself or the church. We're not on trial, and you're not the judge." He tells me not to waste my time writing anymore. Here are some problems. He never self-examines any wrongness he has done. When people criticize him, he says "We are not on trial." He doesn't know how much he is on trial before the Lord. He is so exempt and so arrogant that he cannot see his own faults. That is why he never remembers a time of true repentance and yet he will tell everyone else they need to repent. As I said, I know of five families whose marriages broke up because he acted as a judge and he tells me I can judge him? He should go on the internet and look at all the people who criticize doctrinal issues about John. What he would is say he is suffering as a good servant for the Lord. Another problem I see is he puts all the blame on those who try to give him constructive criticism by saying, "Get berfore the Lor and ask Him to fill you with His joy.

I have to go before God every day of my life. I am so filled with joy. I have expressed to him what God is doing in my life and how joyful I am and yet he tells me to get before the Lord? He is give the wrong person his advice. He should look in a mirror and give it to himself. If he could see all the notes I take in my Bible study time, he would have a different attitude. John is so defensive of himself and the church that in my opinion there is no hope for him to change. That is sad for me because I know him and I have been involved in the church for so long. As I said, the church did not start out this way. It is John who was done everything to corrupt this church. Christ is everything to me. I desire to know Him as Paul did. Grace would say that is impossible because you have to deal with your sin. I say, "non-sense". Christ did it for me. God wants us to know Him. He wants to fellowship with us. He wants us to partake of his holiness and his life. That is why we have the Bible. That is why we have the Spirit of God to teach us and guide us in all truth. But for John, you said it. There is no Holy Spirit, no love, unless you abide by his rules and regulations and you believe in his doctrines. People I know still go there. I can't communicate with them because of GCC's hold on their lives and their beliefs.

Let me say, I have really never been hurt emotionally at Grace. I left because God was teaching me truth and helping me discern the error of JM and those on staff. I saw what happens when a a common ordinary man who has compassion gets on staff and becomes a monster instead of a man of God, and get JM will say he is godly just to protect his ego. Unfortunately, people like you have gotten hurt or the person who went to the college. What Grace would say is, That person is in sin or unsaved. The problem is they don't even know that salvation in Christ really is, because they look at salvation through doctrine rather than through a personal experience of true brokenness. Yet they continue to counsel and people continue to go there because they are trapped. I have written a book, note specially about Grace. It is not published yet, but it will be soon, Lord willing, It is called, "Intimacy In God." It is Biblically based and directs us to Christ and not the church. To me, the church draws you to itself in many cases, not to Christ. Grace is the epitome of that.

I could go all day on this because I have 20 years of experience on things that have happened there.

I entered this forum with the idea that I could use my experience and what God is doing in my life to help others. You can help me by staying in the word and us sharing with each other what Christ is doing in our lives and allowing Him to teach us the Spirit of truth. As far as GCC. There are still emotional ties there. You just can[t walk away after being there 20 years and not have some emotions in you. However, I will not let my experiences at this church take away the joy I have in Christ. What I want to do is tell others to stay away from this place and do not go to these schools and do not listen to Grace to You. We need to let everyone know and find others who have any tithes to this place. The one thing I am reminded of is JM has to go before the Lord. Jesus said that in John 5 when the tombs are raised. I believe that is when we are out of this body and we face God. JM has affected so many judgment that he will face double judgment (James 3).

You are a special person and remember, you are an image of God's likeness and He wants you for Himself.

Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Date: January 22, 2013 12:33AM

Note: I found an error in my last post: It reads Satah is an angel of light. It should be Satan is an angel of light.

Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Posted by: gracetowho? ()
Date: January 22, 2013 01:29AM


I am SOOOO glad you were not personally abused by the doctrine, or abused with "church disipline" or
tried to comfort women and couldnt understand why they kept heaping condemnation on thmselves on top of the horrible life experiences they were induring.

Its The Doctrine, Its the Doctrine, Its the Doctrine! I finally GOT IT!

I got it by the Holy Soirit of God revealing it to me, because my rational mind could never "get" that someone would
Say depression is Sin. ( Even if you really believed that! That is sooo cruel!)
But the women kept telling me that and I thot it was "the depression" talking.

I will PM you with some of the details, and you will understand my anger.
I just remembered anger is wrong too in that system. Except the pastor of course.
I am not angry for myself, nor do I condemn
JM, but i do condemn his teaching and hold him accountable for the very real effects of those teachings.
If words wil not correct him, then i pray God places him in a situation that makes him cry out to God and repent of all the damage he has done. or cry out to God for the first time?

But...... back to your New Revelation of the blood of Christ covering all your sin......or The Gospel as it is commonly known. : )

(Quote) Grace would say that is impossible because you have to deal with your sin. I say, "non-sense". Christ did it for me. God wants us to know Him.)

When you say Grace, I assume you mean John Macarthur, correct?

When you say "deal with your sin", when does that supposedly end? When does a person feel forgiven?

Why does JM think Jesus died on the Cross?
So we could "deal with" something we could never deal with?

When John Macarthur says " hes always been a Christian" ( which is generally a tip off for me...they are not a christian)

As far as I can tell from that doctrine, you would either be a sincere person seeking God, but kept in bondage, or a self righteous person in bondage, creating bondage for others.

Religion does that.

Relationship with the Living God of the Universe, because you are forgiven and can boldly go to the Throne of Grace
calling Him Abba, does not create bondage, it manifests as pure joy as you describe.
Not worried about what others think about you on minor things.

I realize that as you and i write out it, things start to "gel" concerning the things we have witnessed and taken note of over the years, but if JM is not a christian, than that has huge implications.
Like we should not accept anything he has to say.....we would then need to re-examine everything ever taught by him...

Would you mind sharing what you were trying to get across to John Macarthur in your letters to him?

Bless you MOTG!
You sound like a brand new Christian full of wonder at the unearned forgiveness of God!


Posted by: Mark Scheiderer ()
Date: January 22, 2013 05:54AM


Glad you shared so much on MacArrogant.

Various thoughts/questions:

1. The thing I have noticed about people who adopt Reformed/Calvanist/MacA theology is that they are right on EVERYTHING and if you try to point out to them something that is wrong, they will give you the "1000 yard look", i.e. they will look at you like you're from another planet, and somehow make you feel about 2 feet tall, i.e. guilty. I think it's all due to the fact that THEY have fallen under the spell of a seducing spirit and THEY are the ones who can't be reasoned with. This just happened with an individual I've casually known for about 2-3 years. A year or so ago I warned them about an individual they recently met who has bi-polar disorder, has caused trouble in several churches and slanders people constantly. The individual looked at me like I was the guilty party and I could tell they didn't believe me (even though I've known the bi-polar individual all my life - it's a relative). A month or so ago the individual told me that they started believing in Calvanism 2 years ago, accepts Neuthetic (sp?) counselling, etc. This, IMO, explains the unteachableness and arrogance. I also tried to warn a pastor ( whose church the bi-polar individual attended) about my relative, and the pastor's (who is Calvanist/believes in Neuthetic counselling/ loves MacA.) reply to me was "it sounds like some reconcilation needs to take place between you and ...", which means they disregarded what I had to say, and were over-stepping their bounds by telling me what I needed to do. "Thus saith the Neuthetic counsellor!" IMO, Neuthetic counselling does NOT deal in reality, and it's guilt-trip inducing ideas place people in bondage.

2. I was talking with someone years ago about MacArrogant, and we both felt that MacA acts like he is some kind of intermediary between God and man. It's like he sees himself as not really being a sinner who needs to be saved by grace, so he just proclaims the "bad news" to mankind . Your comments about him saying he's been a Christian all his life says it all. IMO, MacA has led a sheltered life. Has he ever had to support himself by actually working? I think he's little different than Bob Jones 2, 3 and Steven Jones who have all been presidents of Bob Jones University and are 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations of the same family. It sounds like MacA. has been part of ministry "royalty" and has never really been part of "reality".

3. QUESTION: Does MacA simply read a bunch of commentaries/Bible reference works, and re-word them, passing them off as his own material in his sermons and commentaries? Is he simply plagerizing?

4. The fact that so many people are fiercely, unquestioningly loyal to MacA. and his teachings, is a HUGE red flag. I talked to the head of a discernment ministry a few months ago, and they said that his followers would "follow him off a cliff !!" I gave up a Facebook account a year or so ago, in part, because many of the people who were interested in discernment issues were becoming "MacArthurized".

5. QUESTION: Poster "bjw" stated that MacA owns a mansion. Do you know how big it is? Are there pictures of it available?

6. "bjw" and others have talked about publishing their experiences on the net. Would you consider PMing him and others, and see what you can do? Calvanism/Reformed/MacArthurism is spreading rapidly and people need to be warned about it. Times-a-wastin', IMO.

God bless and Godspeed to your efforts,


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2013 06:00AM by Mark Scheiderer.

Re: Ex members of John MacArthur's church
Date: January 22, 2013 01:23PM

Dear GTW and Mark:

Your comments are so right on and appreciate both of you and your concern about MacArthurizm:

I have to go through both of your comments so we can work together regarding, JM, Calvinism, Neothetic Counseling and the whole of how they have hurt so many people. First let me say this. In each of these they take the word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit and twist everything to fit their doctrines and their dictorial attitude. And I agree having been a member of Grace for so many years seen how the scriptures have completely been taken out of context.

GTW, you are right about doctrine. But I think it is more than doctrine. It is attitude, it is a lack of trust in the Holy Spirit, it is a lack of compassion on people's lives, people's hurts and people's individuality. There was a time in my life even at Grace that I went through conflicts in my life. I was afraid to go to any counselor there because I was afraid they would throw, SIN, SIN, SIN. So I would just go to the mountains and spend an hour or two talking to the Lord. I really felt at peace, but the next time I attended the church, it started all over again. When my wife and I moved to Washington state, we got the same thing. It got so bad that decided I was just going to let the Word of God teach me. Having been to Bible school, I learned principles how to study the Bible, how to keep context, how to relate one first to another and how to ask questions, not just about lverse relationships but about how to take scriptures personally and like I like to call it, take ownership of the Word in your inner being. I began with the gospel of John because I wanted to know Christ intimately in my life. If I was going to beable to deal with all the stress and frustration of the church, I needed to let the Spirit teach me. I was really reward. First, I understand that I had to put myself as a disciple of Jesus as the disciples. They had a mind that could learn, so I had a mind that could learn as long as I kept scripture in the same context that Jesus was teach them. Let me share with both of you a few verses and these are just a few.

In John 3:17 it says For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but the world through Him might be saved. What that means is even as much as we have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Christ came to redeem us from the curse of the law, not to make us guilty of the law. Remember Romans 8:1, There is now no comdemnation to those who are in Christ. God I do not believe looks at us through sin, but through the righteousness of Christ. That is why He paid the price for sin. I do not believe that if you are in Christ you deal with sin. My mind was so focused on sin because that is what Calvinism, Reformed Theology and JM says that you have no mind to focus on Christ. I decided I needed to focus on being saved, acknowledging my sinful by mourning and being broken that I have suppressed the truth of the Spirit in my inner man, and then focus on who I am in Christ. I am loved by Him, I am a partaker of His divine nature, I am owned by the Spirit to let Him live out His life in me, I am hidden with Christ in God, I am buried with HIm in baptism that I may be raised with Him in righteousness. That helped me look not at sin but who I was in Him.

Shortly after this, I left this church. It wasn't easy, because they started tell me how much they loved me. They even bought a new car for my life and I. I said "no thank you" They called me ungrateful and not willing to submit to the authority of elders. That was OK with me, becauise to me, I was going to focus on Christ and not allow them to put that Calvinistic guilt trip on me. I got so made that I told them to shut up and get out. I never had been that bold in my lifel. But it was God's word helping me see who I was in him so I could discern their attempt to bait me and hook me back to them. That helped me when I went back to Grace. When we finally left JM attempted to lure me with "I love you" Hogwash. I loves himself, he loves what he is in the pulpit so he can dominate. I wrote him a letter to tell him that his ministry was so full of the earrth and not of the Spirit. He wrote back and called me hostile and argumentive. I guess I was both according to his philosophy and his rules. But between me and the Lord, it sure felt good because after 20 years I finally stood up to this man. But I had to have confidence with the scripture and the Spirit. I could not allow these situations to let my mind deal with sin which I did not have to because there is not condemnation. Let me ask you guys a question. If there is sin in a person born of the Spirit, then how can the Spirit be in that person. Sin an righteousness are opposites. So if we are in Christ and His righteousness sin is not and issue with us. Righh? That is why Christ was made sin for us.

Calvin believed in Total Depravity. I do not think that is true. We have a soul. We were made in the image of God's likeness. While the fall made us sinners, the soul still exists in us. Psalm 139 says that we cannot hide for the Spirit of God. It is always in us even thougjh we fall short of God's glory. I don't believe that sin involves acts of sin like JM teaches or like neuithetic counseling teaches. Falling short of God's glory is the issue and that is why we need redemption that we might live in His glory and glorify Him in Christ. That is what John 17 talks about. Us being one in the Father, the Son being one in us, we being heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ. I don't know about you but if Total Depravity is true, then all of us would be damned. But who wants to listen to Reformed Theology that will make a depressed person feel guilty? Christ died for the ungod. I was ungodly once, but I am no more depravited because of Christ in me the hope of glory. I would much rather live in the Spirit, than have to deal with Calvinism or JM or neuthetic counseling.

Now, I think we all have a right to be angry. Why? Because the word of truth has been suppressed by men who have a form of godliness but deny the power because like you said GTW, there is no Holy Spirit and if there is no Holy Spirit, they have commited the only sin that is not forgiveable, blasphemy of the Spirit. They are under greater condemnation than they tell us we are under. I think we need to like your friends know how much they are loved by Christ and help them see the grace of God in the midst of their hurt.

Mark, I can't believe that they would do that to your friend with bi-polar and yet that is what Reformed Theology does. It makes you the guilty party because they want to control with earrthly wisdom of the Bible to make you think they are so holy and righteousness. And in the case of JM it is doubled. In the twenty years I was at grace I never heard him talk about a sin he said committed or any brokenness in his life and yet he will condemn others, even national figures that they are unsaved and they need repentance right in the middle of 4000 people. How can national figures help a person in the congregation in their spiritual life? To me that comes from a nationally known Bible figure that is unregenerated.

Let me tell you both that I just wrote this man a letter to respect to a couple of lthings he told me. First he didn't understand where I was coming from, referring to my arguments on what was going on at Grace. I am him my testimony on how God was working in my life. Then he told me a had to stop venting, in others being frustrated. Let me ask you, would you be frustrated if you went to a chuch for 20 years thinking you were getting truth and helping so many kids in AWANA to point them to Christ, then finding out that the guy is a jerk and probably not even of the Spirit. That is heartbreaking for me especially when I know him an I have worked with his children in the past. Let me give couple of things I wrote in this letter: He almost demanded that I get before the Lord and get right with God. I told him I am in the word every day, which I am. I go before the Lord and search my heart out before Him and ask HIm to teach me truths that will help me know Him better. In his letter to me he said, "I don't know where you are coming from." I told him that I embrace truth, I embrace Christ, I embrace what I am as a living member of the church in my soul, I embrace all that I am in the Spirit of Truth. That brings me inexpressible joy that the mind that focuses on doctrines of this world cannot not know and therefore you cannot understand me or wherte I am going. In other place I told him that that I didn't think that he was teaching of the Spirit in fact I doubted that he even had the Spirit in him.

Reformed Theology teaches doctrine even as wrong as it is, but Reformed Tehology leaves out a personal relationship with God and they leave out the Holy Spirit completely.

Now, about the question regarding the mansion. I haven't been to the new house, but I was at the old house. It was quite large. The thing is, when I was at that house his ministry was still small and he was much more person oriented. He loves baseball, football and basketball. In fact he had a tryout with the Washinngton Redskins. I remember going to a retreat and he was the guess speaker. He spent the whole afternoon with me getting to know me. That met a lot to me. But that has all changed. He and I are only two months apart in age. I have seen this man change from a reasonably speaking fair human being to a dictator worse than the pope. When the Master;s College came into play, that changed the whole structure of the church. The church would send him around the world. NOw I understand there is even an academy in John's honor in one countryl. It is spreading so fast and your right Mark, it is time to do something about it. People are getting tripped into this. It isn't just Grace but so many others you come to the shepherd's conference learn then take MacArthurism to their church. I saw on the internet by one who says it is like a one-world church. That is scary for me since I know so many people who still go there but have no idea what is going on because the staff feelings they have to 'PROTECT THEIR FLOCK" I can tell you this about John's finances. He makes mega bucks. Every time a book is sold he get royalties. Every time Grace to You is broadcasted he gets royalties. The guy is loaded. Do you think lhe is going to give all of that up and his reputation by repenting of sin he doesn't think he has? No way. That tells me he has no conscious mind toward the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ who was rich went into poverty for us. Paul says when he was a Pharisee of Pharisee, and found blameless, he gave up everyrthing to know Christ and be found in Him. We considered it as rubbish. But MacArthur wouln't do this. He has an empire. People idolize him. They want to be a part of what he is doing. Boy, they blinded. Again I haven't to his current residence but I can tell you that it is in a high-rent districrt.

As far as JohnnyMac's using commentaries and copying them. I don't know that he does that. He is very opinionated so that we says in his commentaries and books are very well his own views and remember he has several that edit them so they are going to be very careful about what he writes. I can tell you that except for a few instances all that you hear from GTY are what he has taught from the pulpit.

Next, anything that I can do to help expose this most dangerous theology church and man I will be happy to help out.

Also, GTW, you asked about his belief about the cross. He does belief that Jesus died on the cross. He does believe that Christ's death paid the penalty fior sin, The problem is. It is a theology, not something he has really taken personally for himself. Like he said, "I never knew a time I wasn't saved. I always have known Jesus." RED FLAGS.

Let me give a little bit of testimony. I have actually so called a Christian since 1963, I have been to Bible school for about five years, but never got a degree. That's OK because if you rightly divide the word of truth and you allow the Spirit to work in your life, then what is the difference between me and a man you has a degree? I'll tell you. Wisdom from the wolrld of other Bible scholars and a man allowing the Christ of Christ to give spiritual wisdom from above through the Spirit. I would say my 1963 experience did not make me a Christian. In fact I really don't like using that term or the term believers because that is a loosely used term in churches. I like the term born of the Spirit from John 3 because that is what my life is about. If I sound new, it is because I am excited about what I am in Christ, I am excited about us sharing this with each other, and I am excited to find people like me who want to expose this cult in the name of the truth of the pure gospel and not the gospel according to MacArthur.

I've said a lot here, but I want you to know, we need others. And second, my life is Christ and him crucified. I am crucified with Christ and I live because Christ in me. He is my life and He is my joy.

You guys are a light and fresh air for me and I appreciate you both in Christ. I mean that with all my heart.


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