Here is a list of questions that I found to be very interesting. They compare a healthy church to an unhealthy church.

[b:b7900fea48]Uncovering Churches that Abuse People[/b:b7900fea48]

[b:b7900fea48]1. Does a member’s personality generally become stronger, happier, more confident as a result of contact with the group?[/b:b7900fea48]
In an abusive church, the use of guilt, fear, and intimidation to control members is likely to produce members who have a low self-image, who feel beaten down by legalism, who have been taught that asserting oneself is not spiritual.
One of the first disturbing characteristics to be reported by relatives and friends of members of these churches is a noticeable change in personality, usually in a negative direction.

[b:b7900fea48]2. Do members of the group seek to strengthen their family commitments? [/b:b7900fea48]
Nearly all unhealthy churches attempt to minimize the commitments of their members to their family, especially parents.
Young people may be told that they now have a new “spiritual” family, complete with leaders who will “re-parent” them.
Church loyalty is seen as paramount, and family commitments are discouraged or viewed as impediments to spiritual advancement.

[b:b7900fea48]3. Does the group encourage independent thinking and the development of discernment skills? [/b:b7900fea48]
Control-oriented leaders attempt to dictate what members think, although the process is so spiritualized that members usually do not realize what is going on.
A pastor or leader is viewed as God’s mouth piece, and in varying degrees a member’s decision making and ability to think for oneself are swallowed up by the group.
Pressure to conform and low tolerance for questioning make it difficult to be truly discerning.

[b:b7900fea48]4. Does the group’s leadership invite dialogue, advice and evaluation from outside its immediate circle? [/b:b7900fea48]
Authoritarian pastors are usually threatened by any outside expression of diverse opinions, whether from inside or outside the group. When outside speakers are given access to the pulpit, they are carefully selected to minimize any threat to the leadership’s agenda.
Coercive pastors are fiercely independent and do not function well in a structure of accountability.
For the sake of public relations, they may boast that they are accountable to a board of some sort, when in actuality the [u:b7900fea48]board is composed of [b:b7900fea48]“yes-men”[/b:b7900fea48] [/u:b7900fea48]who do not question the leader’s authority.

[b:b7900fea48]5. Are group members encouraged to ask hard questions of any kind?
A cardinal rule of abusive systems is “Don’t ask questions, don’t make waves.” [/b:b7900fea48]
A healthy pastor welcomes even tough questions. In an unhealthy church [u:b7900fea48]disagreement with the pastor is considered to be disloyalty and is tantamount to disobeying God. [/u:b7900fea48]
People who repeatedly question the system are labeled “rebellious”, “unreachable”, or “disharmonious to the body of Christ”.
Persistent questioners may face sanctions of some kind such as being publicly ridiculed, shunned, shamed, humiliated, or disfellowshipped.

[b:b7900fea48]6. Do members appreciate truth wherever it is found even if it is outside their group? [/b:b7900fea48]
Whether they admit it or not, abusive churches tend to view themselves as spiritually superior to other Christian groups.
This religious elitism allows little room for outside influences. There can be no compromise with external sources, who, the leadership will say, really don’t understand what is going on in the ministry anyway.

[i:b7900fea48]The following questions come from the book: Recovering from Churches That Abuse, by Ronald Enroth, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Zondervon, 1994. [/i:b7900fea48][b:b7900fea48][/b:b7900fea48]

rrmod...

Question:

If according to research, done by the Barna Group, that the divorce rate among those who are "born-again" is identical to the rate among those who are not, doesn't logic dictate that for an individual to state "How do you account for the broken up marriages in the church? (abused) they would have to prove that the percentage of broken marriages excedes that of a typical church (which, as already stated, is the same as that of non believers) (according to Barna is 35% of marriages)

Now to make such radical statements as have been made (and I'm confident without any scientific data) regarding marriages at RLC, wouldn't the percentage have to be that much greater them 35%?

I'm assuming you are the unbias one among us....

Can you please clarify to me the following:

Why does RLC have young adult women living with elders or pastors?

RLC DOES NOT. HOWEVER THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN INVITED TO, BY INDIVIDUAL FAMILIES, FOR A VARITY OF REASONS RANGING FROM NOT HAVING ANY WHERE ELSE TO LIVE TO DESIRING TO LEARN FROM A WHOLE FAMILY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE COME FROM BROKEN FAMILIES(AMONG OTHER REASONS).

Why did these girls leave their good families to follow Tony?

THIS QUESTION IS FAULTY BECAUSE IT IMPLIES INFORMATION NOT ESTABLISHED AS TRUTH (good families & follow Tony)

Why do I know one girl in particular who wants to go back to her mother, but is afraid that she is not obeying God if she leaves RLC?

I DON’T KNOW ANYONE WHO DOESN’T REALIZE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE INSECURE AND IMMATURE IN THEIR FAITH IN GOD, AMONG OTHER THINGS, AND ARE CONSTANTLY WARRING WITH WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE OBEYING GOD

Why are they planting another cult in Katy, TX? I guess so the people there would not know about them.

ONCE AGAIN, THIS QUESTION IS FAULTY BECAUSE IT IMPLIES INFORMATION NOT ESTABLISHED AS TRUTH

What are they doing with the girls living with the elders? Tell me that this is not strange to you.

THERE ARE MANY YOUNG ADULTS WHO ATTEND RLC, AND THEREFORE THERE ARE MANY LOOKING FOR LIFE EXPERIENCE, WHICH INCLUDES MOVING OUT OF HOME. RENTING A ROOM IS COMMON IN THIS WORLD AND IN RLC. ALSO THERE IS AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF YOUNG MEN DOING THE SAME.

Why are married couples living with other married couples?

SHARED LIVING (WHICH MY PARENTS DID THROUGH MOST MY CHILDHOOD (NOT AT RLC) IS ALSO NOT UNCOMMON, AND IS COST EFFECTIVE, AND ALLOWS FOR CERTAIN CHOSEN RELATIONSHIPS TO DEEPEN AT A FASTER RATE.

Why are members force to submit to the authority of Tony?

THIS QUESTION IS FAULTY BECAUSE IT IMPLIES INFORMATION NOT ESTABLISHED AS TRUTH (members(no membership), force?)

Can Pastor Tony ever be fired?

HE COULD…HOWEVER ON A COMPARISON LEVEL WITH OTHER PASTORS, TONY WOULD BE CONSIDERED SUCCESSFULLY LEADING THIS CHURCH, AND THEREFORE WOULD BE UNDER NO THREAT OF BEING FIRED

Why future pastors and elders are all ready hand selected by Tony, but with the delusion that the church members have a vote? Even though church members are allow to vote, they are only voting for individuals who were already chosen by Tony. So, it really doesn't matter who gets voted in or not.

A QUORUM OF VOTERS AND VOTES MUST BE MET FOR AN ELDER TO BE ELECTED. THERE IS ALSO NO REASON WHY A NO VOTE BY THE MAJORITY COULDN’T BE CAST, THEREBY NOT SELECTING THAT ELDER. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT TONY IS NOT ALWAYS (OR NEVER) INVOLVED IN THAT PROCESS. LAY PASTORS, ON THE OTHER-HAND ARE SELECTED BY THE SITTING PASTORAL STAFF…HOWEVER THE ELDERS ARE ALLOWED TO OVERRIDE ANYTHING.

Why do a some members practice communal living?

BECAUSE IT IS BIBLICALLY SUPPORTED/ENCOURAGED.

Why are individuals deceived into doing certain things? For instance I was inviting to a "so call potluck" so I thought. Later I was force into some weird praying ritual which got very charismatic. It lasted for a long time in which I decided to leave. This was not the only time that a couple invited my husband and I over for dinner and it turn out to be something else. On another occassion.....we were told how to parent our child to their standards. After that incidence..I decided not to join RLC.

THIS QUESTION IS FAULTY IN THAT, BY YOUR OWN WORDS YOU PROVED THE MISUSE OF THE WORD FORCED(YOU LEFT THE MEETING; YOU LEFT THE CHURCH). RLC IS A NON DENOMINATIONAL, CHARISMATIC CHURCH. IT IS NO SURPRISE THE ACTIVITY YOU DESCRIBE. PLEASE NOTE THAT CHARISMATIC IS A FAIRLY RELATIVE TERM, AND THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE ASSUMED TO MEAN SOMETHING PARTICULAR

Why are marriages and families being destroyed? Any church that disrupts a marriage and forces children to leave their parents to follow them is very scary in my book.

QUESTION IS FAULTY, ASSUMES FACTS NOT ESTABLISHED. I WOULD AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT, HOWEVER, ITS VERBIAGE WOULD HAVE TO BE SUBSTANTIATED WITH FACTS. (MEANING HOW HAS THE “CHURCH” DESTROYED A MARRIAGE OR FAMILY?) CHILDREN CAN MEAN UNDER EIGHTEEN, OR SIMPLY OFFSPRING. I AM UNAWARE OF ANY UNDER EIGHTEEN YEAR OLDS FORCED FROM THEIR PARENTS. ANYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED FROM AN ADULT PERSPECTIVE.

Also, what will you do if your beloved child told you one day that they were disowning you to go follow a church?

I WOULD PRAY FOR THEM (AND PROBABLY FEEL VERY HURT). HOWEVER, I WOULD ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT MY RAISING OF THEM AND RECOGNIZE THAT THEIR CHOICE DOESN’T NECESSARILY REFLECT ON THE CHARACTER OF THE CHURCH.

Yes, there are some wonderful people at RLC. I have a friend who attends there. However, her husband along with me figured out that it was a cult. Now we are trying very hard to get her out. The pain of their marriage is so heartbreaken. Can you explain this? Why do people fear leaving RLC?

SPECULATION: SOME HAVE DEIFIED MEN OF GOD AS GOD. SOME HAVE TIED THEIR WORTH TO THEIR PARTICIPATION IN CHURCH. SOME FEAR ADMITTING THAT THEY ARE UNWILLING TO CONFORM TO THE STANDARD OF GOD, COMMUNICATED THROUGH HIS WORD, AT RLC. FEAR IS A TOOL OF THE ENEMY AND THEREFORE CAN BE APPLIED TO ANYTHING.

humblefollower:

I have not researched RLC.

Can you please clarify to me the following:

Why does RLC have young adult women living with elders or pastors?

RLC DOES NOT. HOWEVER THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN INVITED TO, BY INDIVIDUAL FAMILIES, FOR A VARITY OF REASONS RANGING FROM NOT HAVING ANY WHERE ELSE TO LIVE TO DESIRING TO LEARN FROM A WHOLE FAMILY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE COME FROM BROKEN FAMILIES(AMONG OTHER REASONS).



So your saying that the young lady who lives with the Cunninghams comes from a broken home???? OMG! You have your info whacked!!!!! The girl who lives in the Senior Pastor's house is a child of one of the ELDERS of RLC......She does not come from a broken family...her daddy is an ELDER....would you like me to give names...Cuz I will???

Dear Claypot
I have hung in hoping and praying that things would turn around, that the leadership would [b:1e05e2df41]stop the abuse [/b:1e05e2df41]and [b:1e05e2df41]reconcile the lives that have been hurt.[/b:1e05e2df41] You said you are “[u:1e05e2df41]grieved at the potential of division;”[/u:1e05e2df41] [b:1e05e2df41]‘YES’ [/b:1e05e2df41][b:1e05e2df41][u:1e05e2df41]we all echo the same sentiments! [/u:1e05e2df41][/b:1e05e2df41]The only difference we are the victims who have walked the extra mile, given our shirts coat and shoes, turned the other cheek and frankly we have run out of cheeks to turn. No one in this thread lies in bed plotting at night at how to cause division. As I have read the many testimonies and experiences people have had at Radiant Life Church both [u:1e05e2df41]good and bad[/u:1e05e2df41]. It all boils down to ones who have been hurt have been the first to offer forgiveness.

[b:1e05e2df41]However, Forgiveness is not a license to enable bad behavior! [/b:1e05e2df41]

[b:1e05e2df41]Forgiveness it does not authorize leadership to keep taking advantage of others resources. [/b:1e05e2df41]

[b:1e05e2df41]Yes we are angry with the money changers in the temple. [/b:1e05e2df41]

What surprises me the most is your grieved over the potential of division but not the [u:1e05e2df41]spiritual abuse or the false teachings of Spiritual Parenting or the miss uses of Spiritual Authority[/u:1e05e2df41]. You are not being objective, you’re motives appear to be miss guided are you pert of the inter-circle?

You said “Please note that I too am a member of RLC. And, from time-to-time, people have left the church [u:1e05e2df41]disgruntled[/u:1e05e2df41].”
[b:1e05e2df41]Don’t you think that is a bit odd that they are all disgruntled?[/b:1e05e2df41] What happened to guiding people into the fullness of God’s Grace that they would move because of employment or business opportunity’s or relocating because that is where God is calling the individual to go.

Dialog is healthy and it should be used to find commonality to bridge together and bring understanding to the issues.
As for the participation in this thread…. [b:1e05e2df41]yes [/b:1e05e2df41] Did Paul and Peter have disagreements how about (Mark-John) and Paul. But they did not isolate they talked about the issues they prayed together and the Lord resolved these differences. You can’t do that when the pastor isolates himself and will not make an appointment or return a phone calls!

Taken from Jim Jones biography:

Jones was able to do evil because the people around him permitted and assisted him in committing evil acts. Peoples Temple members' dualistic perspective in which they saw Peoples Temple as being attacked by evil capitalistic society, led them to resort to violence to preserve their community.

Jim Jones first mentioned suicide in 1973. In 1976 the first suicide drill was conducted within Jones' inner circle as a loyalty test. For at least a year prior to fateful November 18, 1978, revolutionary suicide was discussed publicly at Jonestown. Whatever Jim Jones commanded, the members did.


Notice.....When mind control is in action. When manipulation is in action. This is in no way saying that this kind of act is going to happen...but notice......Jones was able to do evil cause the people around him permitted and assisted.....blah blah blah......It's clear that MAN can get away with alot of stuff when people submit themselves to the MAN.....When they give power to the MAN....Believe me....He can get away with alot of things! Many people dress like the man cause they idolize him.....in idolizing him they trun themselves over to HIM thus giving HIM more authority....They will think like HIM and assist HIM in doing what HE wants.......I have seen this first hand. All the people that are for Tony disagree will come against me cause they don't want me to talk about their MAN! Notice I said...Their MAN!

Notice this also:

Jim Jones first mentioned suicide in 1973. In 1976 the first suicide drill was conducted within Jones' inner circle as a loyalty test.

Not to say that suicide is going to take place....but notice that the test is as with all cult leaders or dictators or mind controllers...whatever you want to call them.....It always starts out within the INNER CIRCLE as a test of loyalty.

Are you loyal to me? Then you need to go to SOMA
Are you loyal to me? Then you need to move in with this family
Are you loyal to me? Then you need to buy the used vehicle that Bob is elling rather than the vehicle you saw at the dealership because I'm your DISCIPLER.

Remember this CLAYPOT and HUMBLEFOLLOWER and all Tony Followers:

TRUTH HURTS! Doesn't it????? It sure does!!!!!

THE TRUTH HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You may oppose what I say....but God is my JUDGE!!

Call me crazy...

Transparent:

Have you ever approached the elder you are refering to and asked him about his daughters situation? And even about his family and how he raised them? And what his current position is on it?

I'm CONFIDENT it would clear up your position....unless of course you have concluded what the problem and are simply look for evidence to back it up, in which case you'll say anything to win this arguement (or you might just move on to something else)

[b:8baaea02d8]However, on a more mature approach, would you do that investigation and then report back to this message board your findings.[/b:8baaea02d8]


rrmod...

My question to you wasn't particular to RLC but was simply a question of logic... If you would please reread it and consider answering it according to the questions based only in the hypothetical (if A=1 & B=2 then wouldn't A+B=3?)

Dear HumbleFollower,

Yes, I equate Tony to Jim Jones because anytime a MAN could get 20 plus families to relocate to Katy, TX to spread his word is a very powerful and scary man in my book. Also, anytime a MAN could get you and others to follow his flock and his teachings is very scary to me. No he probably will not make you drink poison and allow you to commit suicide, but he will allow you to commit spiritual suicide.

Now back to my questions...you refuse to clarify the questions that I have asked you. You claimed that my questions were faulty. If they are, then please answer them because I do not understand the practices of RLC. I am not trying to argue with you or to create discord. I am sincerely trying to understand why certain things are taking place at RLC. Are you going to deny the practices, teachings, and behavior that I am concern about? Maybe there is some logic or meaning by them, but I clearly do not understand. I want you to tell me that those practices are normal. If so, then please explain them to me. I asked you a question and your response is that my questions are faulty. I am asking because I want you to prove me wrong and enlighten me about the things that are strange at RLC.


This is not about getting back at Tony or anyone else. As I mentioned before, there are some great people at RLC. I am just concern about how does one MAN get people to follow him? I do believe that Tony just like other cult leaders believe that they are doing God's work. So what, if it means destroying families or people's lives we are all doing this for the kingdom of God.

I am just concern about the teachings and practices of RLC that is all. It is puzzling to me that in my 30 plus years of being a Christian I have never came across this type behavior at any church. I have never met robotic type of people who are walking around in a strange state of mind like I have at RLC.

I left, but not out of hurt. I left because RLC was just too weird and I had many concerns about their pratices. I was only there for about 5 months and I saw enough. Also, when I left I received phone calls for over 4 months from members pressuring me to return. I got close to a couple in the church and they kept pressuring my husband and I. They even came to my house one evening. Their behavior reminded me of a stalker. Now tell me that this is normal. They finally got the picture, but I was actually scared. That is why I posted on here. I thought, "what have I gotten myself into?" This thread is not about being angry. It is about being concern.

There is no point in discussing this matter with you. I know I can't convince you to leave Tony. Just do not get angry because other people are sharing their experiences to assist others. I am just trying to get some clarity about the unbiblical things at RLC. That's all.

Dear leadership at RLC

Has Radiant Life Church promoted this life concept and teaching in discipleship?
That through discipleship there is a [b:3feff201f0]“Spiritual Covering” [/b:3feff201f0]and [u:3feff201f0]protection. [/u:3feff201f0]
People have been counseled that as long as they are submitted to their discipler they are under the covering of that man or woman discipler.
The discipler is a man or woman of God and is submitted to an elder or staff member pastor, the discipler is under the covering of that elder.
As each of the elders and Staff pastors are under the spiritual authority of the pastor and his wife. TRUE or FALSE

Did one of the young couples whose discipler a pastor gave them the council to purchase this house plus have another couple move in with them to help share the financial burden together, after all “two are better than One”. They were counseled to get their home loan with this guy from the church, and God will bless your covenant, partnership and your submission because you’re under the covering.

Does RLC also teach that if the council is poor (financial) advice or council then God will still bless you because of your obedience and submission to that Discipler. TRUE or FALSE

Then why did they loose the house?

and please don't give us the excuse that they were really not submitted…that is an excuse that is used all too often to escape any responsibility from your poor self serving advice and council.

Relationships are coerced together and not allowed to naturally grow