This has been stated before.....to be an true apostle you would have had to walked,talked and been taught by Jesus himself.You would have also had to have been witness to his resurrection.I do not think you are going to find too many, if any (scarcasm) modern aged fellers who fit that description! Simply put ,it is a plain ol' good and simple,man-scam! I did confront Jeff Barnes with love,and a few beers (my bad!)face to face in front of hundreds? I actually agree with him on almost each and every point he ever made about my shortcomings as a father and a husband,because he was merely re-iterating what I had already confessed to my wife and God where my failures. I do not know about the rest of you,but,in my humble(more scarcasm)opinion Jeff has never done or said anything to me personally to make me think he is hopelessly lost,no-one ever is! If Mike is out of the picture great,let Jeff have a shot!If he is truly just a Figurehead,let God be the judge and either move Jeff to remove himself or be replaced by someone!As far as what could be the death of TPWOC,I have an feeling it would be not removing the Villamors as owners and not removing Ron Olin and Jeff Koellmer as elders! But.........As Villianmor told me face to face,"You have been walking without the Lord in your life for a long time now".....so.....What could I possibly know?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2011 06:27PM by ostracizedone.

Quote
TurningPointReject
Can anyone name the one newly proposed elder who confronted Mike and Jeff about their false teaching?

What is the name of the newly proposed elder who, in love, spoke to Mike and Jeff and pleaded with each
of them to turn away from teaching false doctrine and confess to the congregation that Turning Point Church
World Outreach Center was a cult?

Can anyone name the one proposed elder who asked Jeff to perform a full and complete audit of the church's financial records from the last 5 years?


Anyone?



Anyone?



Anyone?

Answer: None of them. In fact if you look you can still see the Kool Aid stains around their mouths

For anyone who is still wondering if they might have been wrong about Mike and Cyndi...or might be wrong about TP in general...who might be thinking about going back...or who, like Ostracizedone, have been told that you can't possibly be able to discern truth because "you've walked so long in the darkness" before you began following Christ, please consider this observation about those of us who have been in the process of sorting things out...

There is this strange waffling that goes on with folks who have been victims of cult leaders. Here's what I think happens.

1. A person--who has OR has not been walking with the Lord, it matters not--comes under the influence of a charismatic personality whose preaching and teaching present an ideal kind of spirituality--a spirituality the leader (either by confession or implication) claims to be living and thriving in. Who wouldn't want that? Every non-Christian who longs to discover what life is about and every Christian seeking to grow in their faith will be attracted to what appears to be an authentic model of what they are aiming for. (I sure was!)

Note: I think Mike was authentic when he started out, but his fatal flaws--the broken places in his soul from unresolved wounds and unyielded pride--caught up with him. Of course, as all of us know, these things catch up with us when we don't let God's Word and other people talk to us about them.

2. Under this charismatic leader we learn some good new things, have spiritual growth experiences, participate in ministry in exciting ways, and make some real progress in our spiritual life. We benefit from our leader's influence over our lives, and we invest our trust in him/her.

3. Once we invest our trust, we then invest ourselves, our finances, our time, our family, etc., in supporting him/her and his/her ministry. In short, we "buy in" fully.

4. Once invested, we are not longer very open to the possibility that we made an error in judgment. We don't want to hear anything negative (even if it's true) about this leader we've gained so much from. We place them on a pedastal and, at the same time, they (if they are not vigilant) begin to grow confident in their own spiritual worth and prowess.

5. Under these circumstances, a cult leader is formed of the once-humble preacher/teacher we love. The authoritarian mindset grows in him/her. We don't feel adequate to question or confront. He/she too believes we are not adequate to do so.

6. Since God's Spirit of truth dwells in all true followers of Jesus Christ, even the most recent convert can, by God's Spirit, recognize when something is amiss, but he doubts himself because he thinks "What do I know?"

7. A huge irony grows in this situation. As the cult leader grows more diabolical in his/her thinking, he/she becomes less able to give and receive truth, and the recent convert who may have "walked in darkness for a long time" in their life previously, but who is listening to God's Spirit and reading God's Word is now more able to discern and point out truth than the leader. However, the insecurity that the leader feels from having his/her authority challenged, paried with the insecurity of the congregation member who feels that he/she cannot possibly be right and the leader be wrong, creates the perfect environment for abuse, counterfeit, and disease all of a spiritual nature.

8. Then because of all of the spiritual deception, abuse, and sickness a person experiences in that environment, there are monstrous challenges when he/she leaves--challenges with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust, with confusion about whether or not a person can trust their own judgment, and ghosts of that cult-leader past still casting their spell--whispering accusations, condemnations, false judgments about our ability/inability to discern truth.

9. This leaves the person waffling between (1) anger when moments of clarity come about what is true and what is not; (2) guilt for having those feelings; (3) fear because of wondering whether the cult leader might have been right about us after all; and (4) confusion...How will I ever know what's right now? Some of what the cult leader said was true. What if all of it was, and now I'm lost? I sure FEEL lost. It was better when I didn't feel this way. Maybe I'm all wrong.

It's horrible to live that way! I know! The best thing I've found--maybe others have discovered other things--is to decide I will dismiss ALL of what the leaders told me, even what they told me about scripture. They proved themselves untrustworthy, and it would be quite the process to sort out all of the lies from the truth. Do over. Start over. What is the pure and simple Gospel? Start there. Read the Book of John and don't hold on to any of Mike's surmisings about any of the passages he may have preached/taught from. Listen to the Word itself. Let the gospel reach you in it's very own power, on its very own merits, on its own terms. It doesn't matter how long you've walked in darkness in the past. In Christ, you have the light of life. You are now in that light, and the Bible says to us, when we come into the light through salvation, "Now walk as children of the light." God wouldn't tell us to do that if we couldn't. In Christ, I can do all things because HE is strenghtening me by His Spirit.

I sense despair--or maybe it is just frustration mixed with some level of discouragement--in some of the postings here. I want to let you know, that even though we do need the body of Christ to encourage us (and us it), God's Spirit of truth is faithful and capable of leading each one of us into ALL truth as we listen to and follow Him in the light of God's Word. You are fully qualified and capable as a child of God in these things. Glory be to God who has hidden these things from those who think they were wise and has shown them to the "babes" in Christ who come to Him with humble hearts to learn from Him.

I'll leave you with this from Numbers 6:24-26, NIV:

"The LORD bless you
and keep you;
the LORD make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
the LORD turn his face toward you
and give you peace."

Quote
ostracizedone
This has been stated before.....to be an true apostle you would have had to walked,talked and been taught by Jesus himself.You would have also had to have been witness to his resurrection.I do not think you are going to find too many, if any (scarcasm) modern aged fellers who fit that description! Simply put ,it is a plain ol' good and simple,man-scam! I did confront Jeff Barnes with love,and a few beers (my bad!)face to face in front of hundreds? I actually agree with him on almost each and every point he ever made about my shortcomings as a father and a husband,because he was merely re-iterating what I had already confessed to my wife and God where my failures. I do not know about the rest of you,but,in my humble(more scarcasm)opinion Jeff has never done or said anything to me personally to make me think he is hopelessly lost,no-one ever is! If Mike is out of the picture great,let Jeff have a shot!If he is truly just a Figurehead,let God be the judge and either move Jeff to remove himself or be replaced by someone!As far as what could be the death of TPWOC,I have an feeling it would be not removing the Villamors as owners and not removing Ron Olin and Jeff Koellmer as elders! But.........As Villianmor told me face to face,"You have been walking without the Lord in your life for a long time now".....so.....What could I possibly know?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2011 03:50AM by LearningPoint.

Thank you for your post LearningPoint! It helped me out quite a bit.When it comes right down to it I guess it makes sense,the psychology part.Because after Villamor had said all the crazy stuff to me :

1.I am so pure,clean and of sin-free heart I could slit my own wrists in front of you and bleed out knowing full well I would immediately be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

Is that biblical? Heck I don't know up from down anymore!

2.He confessed to having suffered from an at-times $3000 a month porn addiction

Is it bad to be sharing this information,or is it my duty to expose? I don't know right from wrong according to them.so I will ask?

3.At the time he was pushing for the building fund asking everybody to dig deep and sacrifice all so he could advance HIS kingdom,he was inquiring to me as to what year musclecar would bring him the best return on his money.I told him what I would do 68-72 Corvette!Does that make me as bad as him,I should have known and advised that there were better ways to be spending the peoples $ shouldn't I? Lord forgive me!

4.The part that hurts the worst and I cannot get over is that as a child I was an award winning bible study student!I absorbed all that I heard and read and thought that I had a rather complete understanding of what the WORD said! He (Villamor)said to me that "unless you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior we have nothing further to discuss at an attempt at marriage counseling through Mike and Cyndi.I kinda laughed and thought why would I have to,that was the only way I had survived a disastrous childhood environment.....with tons of FAITH in GOD...and I still had that! Needless to say he did not see us again!

I guess I just don't get it! I am kind of giving up!Jeff Barnes spent countless hours on the phone with me telling me how everyone at TPWOC had spent countless hours praying and crying for me because as he stated "we all know your place on the LORD's ladder is very, very high!He said buckets and buckets of tears were cried over me and my marriage because it was a matter of highest importance! He made me sound and feel like I deserved to be worshipped! Was that so I would not question the crazy,outlandish insane claims of Villamor and just fall-in with the flock?

No one wanted to believe anything bad about the pastor who, in the beginning, was afraid of leading his flock astray. Mike has lost his way and has lost sight of Jesus and the way he should be going. Mike had the choice of being powerful or pitiful. I guess we all know his choice was not to be the powerful man of God wanted him to be so he removed his annointing and things fell apart. Jeff Barnes came up under Mike's teachings and influence and unfortunately for TPC all the consultants in the world are not going to overcome that. He has the the impression that misleading, hiding the truth from, and outright lying to those who gave to the stewardship campaign is somehow acceptable and the end justifies the means. It does not. Secrecy and deceipt are repugnant to God. Right now TPC is repugnant to God and nothing is going to change until Jeff Barnes steps down and TPC goes outside church to find a new Senior Pastor.

Those of us who left need to forgive ourselves. We have blamed ourselves for what happened. For many of us we had no control over what happened. It was not our fault. For those who sat on the Elder Board and allowed Mike and Cyndi to act like two spoiled children and then stepped down, God has forgiven you so quit beating yourselves up and forgive yourselves. Mike and Jeff are the responsible ones and will answer for their actions. We need to move on and follow the new path that God wants us to follow. If Jesus would forgive an adulteress and send her on her way telling her to go and sin no more, then he has forgiven us and wants us to move on and not make the same mistakes again.

D of D

Quote
ostracizedone
Thank you for your post LearningPoint! It helped me out quite a bit.When it comes right down to it I guess it makes sense,the psychology part.Because after Villamor had said all the crazy stuff to me :

1.I am so pure,clean and of sin-free heart I could slit my own wrists in front of you and bleed out knowing full well I would immediately be accepted into the kingdom of heaven.

Is that biblical? Heck I don't know up from down anymore!

2.He confessed to having suffered from an at-times $3000 a month porn addiction

Is it bad to be sharing this information,or is it my duty to expose? I don't know right from wrong according to them.so I will ask?

3.At the time he was pushing for the building fund asking everybody to dig deep and sacrifice all so he could advance HIS kingdom,he was inquiring to me as to what year musclecar would bring him the best return on his money.I told him what I would do 68-72 Corvette!Does that make me as bad as him,I should have known and advised that there were better ways to be spending the peoples $ shouldn't I? Lord forgive me!

4.The part that hurts the worst and I cannot get over is that as a child I was an award winning bible study student!I absorbed all that I heard and read and thought that I had a rather complete understanding of what the WORD said! He (Villamor)said to me that "unless you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior we have nothing further to discuss at an attempt at marriage counseling through Mike and Cyndi.I kinda laughed and thought why would I have to,that was the only way I had survived a disastrous childhood environment.....with tons of FAITH in GOD...and I still had that! Needless to say he did not see us again!

I guess I just don't get it! I am kind of giving up!Jeff Barnes spent countless hours on the phone with me telling me how everyone at TPWOC had spent countless hours praying and crying for me because as he stated "we all know your place on the LORD's ladder is very, very high!He said buckets and buckets of tears were cried over me and my marriage because it was a matter of highest importance! He made me sound and feel like I deserved to be worshipped! Was that so I would not question the crazy,outlandish insane claims of Villamor and just fall-in with the flock?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2011 01:27PM by Daughter of Dorcas.

Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36 and "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

"Godlessness" means to disregard God in one's life. Naturally this would include atheists, but even those who allege a belief in God may fall into this category if they disregard God in making decisisons or otherwise trea
ting God with disrespect.

"wickedness" is more accurately "unrighteousness", which is simply to not do the right thing. "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." James 4:17


Such people charateristically suppress the truth. They don't want to hear it for themselves, nor do they want the truth to be a matter of public discourse. "by their wickedness" is more accurately "in unrighteousness", which is simply to say that suppressing the truth is not the right thing to do.



"Those of us who left need to forgive ourselves. We have blamed ourselves for what happened."

"For many of us we had no control over what happened. It was not our fault."

"For those who sat on the Elder Board and allowed Mike and Cyndi to act like two spoiled children and then stepped down, God has forgiven you so quit beating yourselves up and forgive yourselves."

"Mike and Jeff are the responsible ones and will answer for their actions."

"We need to move on and follow the new path that God wants us to follow."

"If Jesus would forgive an adulteress and send her on her way telling her to go and sin no more, then he has forgiven us and wants us to move on and not make the same mistakes again."

I have gone to TP for quite some time. I too saw the abuse of authority, the faith movement (health and wealth) false doctrine enter in and various programs keeping people so busy that they were losing their love for God. They were in the wrong field and the harvest yielded smaller fruit. They were trying to do things in their own strength rather than God's strength. Pride was running rampant in many.

I asked the Lord should I stay or leave? He told me to stay and fight the battle that was going on at TP. A lot was caused because the enemy entered in and our walls were down.

We are now at the beginning starting at the foundation at rebuilding TP from the ground up. Therefore we must forget the former things and start fresh.

Pastor Jeff was left with quite a mess to clean up, but I feel he is doing a good job. We no longer have false doctrine sliding in, nor abuse of authority. In fact the people at TP are much kinder to one another.

I have read the recent blogs which repeatedly put Pastor Jeff down and are now attacking the new elder list and am apalled. The poor comments, slams and talking about past actions which they have repented of is sickening. You are suppose to be Christians. I too was hurt through all of this, but I will not continue to bash people in this way, and I know Jesus would not want us acting in this way.

Let's get on with it.

jesuschristismydelight:

You seem to feel that TP has changed.

The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches have checks and balances regarding the power of the pastor through constitutional bylaws, democratically elected church government and meaningful financial transparency.

Does TP now have an elected board (by secret ballot through regular election) as mandated and required by its constitutional bylaws?

If so do board members served fixed terms and stand for reelection?

Can the board fire the pastor?

Does the board control the budget?

Is there an independently audited financial statement that is published annually and distributed to all donors, which discloses in detail all the salaries, expenses and compensation paid out from church funds?

Quote
jesuschristismydelight
I have gone to TP for quite some time. I too saw the abuse of authority, the faith movement (health and wealth) false doctrine enter in and various programs keeping people so busy that they were losing their love for God. They were in the wrong field and the harvest yielded smaller fruit. They were trying to do things in their own strength rather than God's strength. Pride was running rampant in many.

I asked the Lord should I stay or leave? He told me to stay and fight the battle that was going on at TP. A lot was caused because the enemy entered in and our walls were down.

We are now at the beginning starting at the foundation at rebuilding TP from the ground up. Therefore we must forget the former things and start fresh.

Pastor Jeff was left with quite a mess to clean up, but I feel he is doing a good job. We no longer have false doctrine sliding in, nor abuse of authority. In fact the people at TP are much kinder to one another.

I have read the recent blogs which repeatedly put Pastor Jeff down and are now attacking the new elder list and am apalled. The poor comments, slams and talking about past actions which they have repented of is sickening. You are suppose to be Christians. I too was hurt through all of this, but I will not continue to bash people in this way, and I know Jesus would not want us acting in this way.

Let's get on with it.

Welcome to the discussion JCisMD. We are glad you are here. Please help us understand how Turning Point Church has changed.

Lets begin with the new elders. In your opinion, why are they qualified to serve as elders?

Next, please tell us, in your opinion was Turning Point Church World Outreach Center ever a cult? If so were you apart of Turning Point Church while it was practicing its cultish ways?

Regarding the finances, have the former or current leaders conducted a full independent forensic audit of the church finances for the last 5 years? If not, why? How do you feel about the continued lack of financial transparency and accountability? How do you feel about the misuse of Building Campaign Funds?

Are you willing to list the false teachings that no longer take place at Turning Point Church World Outreach Center?

Can you explain what role Jeff played in the creation of the mess that exists at Turning Point Church World Outreach Center?

And finally, what leadership roles have you held at Turning Point Church?

Thank you, in advance, for your responses

Quote
jesuschristismydelight
I have gone to TP for quite some time. I too saw the abuse of authority, the faith movement (health and wealth) false doctrine enter in and various programs keeping people so busy that they were losing their love for God. They were in the wrong field and the harvest yielded smaller fruit. They were trying to do things in their own strength rather than God's strength. Pride was running rampant in many.

I asked the Lord should I stay or leave? He told me to stay and fight the battle that was going on at TP. A lot was caused because the enemy entered in and our walls were down.

We are now at the beginning starting at the foundation at rebuilding TP from the ground up. Therefore we must forget the former things and start fresh.

Pastor Jeff was left with quite a mess to clean up, but I feel he is doing a good job. We no longer have false doctrine sliding in, nor abuse of authority. In fact the people at TP are much kinder to one another.

I have read the recent blogs which repeatedly put Pastor Jeff down and are now attacking the new elder list and am apalled. The poor comments, slams and talking about past actions which they have repented of is sickening. You are suppose to be Christians. I too was hurt through all of this, but I will not continue to bash people in this way, and I know Jesus would not want us acting in this way.

Let's get on with it.

Welcome to the Forum JCMD.
Some questions for you, what happened to all the money in the last 5 years?
Who is the enemy that entered in when the walls where down?
Has the enemy left the church?
Did not Jeff support and particpate in the false teaching and spiritual abuse?
Would you want to remember the past so you don't make the same mistake?
Could you please share how the Lord told you to stay and fight?
Did you confront Mike and Jeff?
Since money was given for the sole purpose of buying property and used as collateral instead, and used to pay off Mike shouldn't a letter have gone out giving all the people who contributed the option of refunding their contribution?
I have not heard a real public apology given to Jackie for trying to destroy her reputation.
Has Jeff stated what false doctrines where wrong?
Has Jeff reached out to the many people on the Forum with a honest and open discussion about the many questions we still have?
Since the people at Tp are much kinder now would you sit down over coffee with me and help me with my many questions and concerns I have?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2011 12:48AM by buddy.