Pig squeal - Interesting to me that you think because of a conversation you had while working on their yard, that you know their hearts. They told you they want to not take a paychek from the church so the pursuing other companies they own outside of the church. So when do they work for the church? I have heard that office hrs are used for these outside businesses and some have questioned why should the church pay for that,and SOMA too. They get paid salaries from soma and about half their time in office is spent doing soma work, but they still collect their very large church paycheck. Mikes heart and intention may have been to do all he told you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Also you need to know that many people pitched in for mike landscaping, for his garage and many other projects. very little has had to come from his own pocket. as for getting to sit down with mike to discuss these things. well it wont happen. he has instructed his staff that he will not meet with people except staff elders and deacon and other pastors. the common response to someone who is concerned that a sheep may be leaving is "let them go" . I really do not think you have an inside view of the truth here. Many people have tried to meet with mike- all to no avail. it is your decision to stay at tpc and i hope you grow spiritually and find the truth for yourself. please do not take all that leadership say as the gospel truth. search out the scripture and see if it lines up. Tpc has a way of saying it is the best church around, the most loving. this is dangerous because God opposes the proud. tpc is one church of many, and many are very good loving and bible preaching churches. becareful to not isolate yourself to one school of thought, being that my school is better than yours. God will not be mocked. you know that elders and pastors are held to a higher standard than the rest so accountability is very important. At the leadership mtg where pastor jackie resigned they presented a whole new shift the church will be taking. One that is very different from being an elder led church. United global ministries is the new apostolic network. there will be very little if any accountability. Iam sure that many there do not even understand what that means. i would highly suggest you find out what you believe about an apostle led church. I would venture to say that you do not know mikes heart on a lot of the issues posted here. still welcome to the forum, there is never anything wrong with sharing of ones thoughts and feelings. May God reveal truth to you as you have your own ability to go straight to Him for tese answers. I hope you will begin to question authority and not blindly submit. tpc didnt begin this way and hopefully it will not end this way either.

I am shocked that people believe that Mike and Cyndi started their businesses so they would not have to take a paycheck. In hards time like we have now and people in our church losing their homes and being evicted, that tpc can plant other churches and pour into them while our own people are being put out on the street. how about we put some money into marysville tp instead of lebanon and philippines- how much do we really pour out to these other places while tpc cant fund their own minitries like childrens and benevolence and yet the seniors pastors keep getting their very very big paychecks. how God must grieve when he sees the greed in our leaders- the big fancy houses, while His house is in ruins in a school gym. Where is all the building fund money to build his temple? have we just built soma instead? Lord helps us and forgive us.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2009 07:07AM by wherefromhere.

I think we often give quick and easy answers to avoid conflict, Pigsqueal.

Really, conflict is not ungodly. Paul (who called himself the least of the apostles) had a conflict with Peter (on whom Jesus had said He would build His church), and Paul confronted Peter publicly about his hypocrisy. Also, Paul and Barnabas had a "sharp" dispute (regarding whether John Mark would be allowed on a journey with them) that sent them on their separate ways. This did not make these men enemies of each other or enemies of God. (Paul later changed his mind about John Mark.)

See, even the apostles Peter and Paul were wrong at times. Do you think Mike could be wrong (who is not an apostle)? Yes, he can be wrong. But the problem is not just that he can be wrong, but rather, when it is evident that he IS wrong (according to clear scriptural teachings), how does he handle it? Does he dismiss it? Hush it up? Tell people that he won't meet with them because they differ from him? Tell them to go elsewhere if they won't agree with his way of doing things, his version of the gospel message?

Contending for the truth is just that: CONTENDING. No one on here hates Mike. We do, however, HATE FALSE DOCTRINE, LIES, DECEIT, and PRETENTION, because these undermine and corrupt the pure Gospel. And Mike is teaching false doctrine, and his unwillingness to be accountable or to talk about issues is a sign or symptom of deceit and cover up. That is most likely why he won't permit people to come on here and read. If things were as above-board as you believe they are, there would be no fear of people reading what has been written here. The truth would shine like a beacon, and everything here could quickly be proven patently false. But Mike IS fearful of people reading what is being written. The question is why?

The Apostle Paul had very dire things to say about anyone who would preach another Gospel other than the pure Gospel message of Christ. He condemned such people, and he said he himself should be condemned if he preached contrary to the truth. I need to ask you, since you seem to know Mike so very well, do you know your Bible as well as you know Mike? If not, why not? If Mike was as commited to the truth as you believe, he would be insisting that all of those under his "authority" read the Bible through again and again to continually be absorbing the truth it contains. He would be encouraging you to listen to God's Spirit of truth and learn to hear what He is saying through the scriptures. Mike would not be telling you everything you should think and believe about life--from sex to authority to making money. That's what the Pharisee's did. They micromanaged people's lives with their man-made doctrines. Good leaders (even secular ones) don't micromanage. Only control freaks do that.

Also, a purehearted person seeks to make restitution for wrongs done. If the leadership discovered that spiritual parenting was unscriptural, what did they do to go back and make things right with the parents of those they were "parenting," those whose children were cut off from them by this ungodly practice? (Talk about hurting the cause of Christ and making people hate God!) I don't know the answer to that, but maybe you'd want to start there. I challenge you to go ask Mike this question. Ask how he and Cyndi have made restitution to the parents of the girl they told to leave SPU on a full scholarship, against her parents' wishes. Ask what they did to go make things right with other parents who were alienated by their children's rebellious arrogance when they ditched the parents who had raised them and ran into the arms of their unbiblical "spiritual parents." Imagine if that was your son or daughter that pushed you aside to be embraced by Mike and Cyndi instead. "Honor your father and mother, that it may go well with you and you may enjoy a long life on the earth." Mike and Cyndi have encouraged young people to jeopardize their claim to this promise--this first promise given in the Commandments. Do you think this is OK? Is this just a little mistake that we should chuckle at, say "oops," and move on?

Do you think we are on this site just because we are bitter? I am not bitter in the least, but I am appalled at the audacity of men and women who claim to be spiritual--who put their piety on display for everyone to ooh and aah over--who feel NO NEED to make their wrongs right by AT LEAST confessing and seeking forgiveness.

Have we forgiven the wrongs done to us? That's a day to day choice we make. But whether we choose to or not, the wrongs are still real, and they do not go away because they are ignored or hushed or shamed.

Please, do not come on here and shame people for participating in this discussion. The Bible says that we don't even know our own hearts. How can you know ours or Mike's or even your own? Only God knows hearts. We can only make assessments based on what people say and do. And that is the topic of dicussion here, not whether hearts are pure. I venture to say, it's a great presumption to say that anyone has a pure heart.

As to not using our names here, there is more to it that transparency or being honest. People generally do not conceal their identities here because they are afraid (though some may be at this point). I believe it's more because we DO NOT have pure hearts that can accept truth from a personality we don't like or with whom we have disagreed in the past. The anonymity helps us in the endeavor to seek to have pure hearts: hearts that do not toss aside truth because of the person it came from. That's why the concealed identity actually promotes good discussion, rather than detracts from it.

People who love truth, don't need names to recognize truth when they see it. They just love truth for its own sake. I hope you will learn to love the truth more than you love personalities. Personalities can be deceitful ("charm is deceitful" the Bible tells us), but the truth--ah! Now that is what is pure. Seek it and you'll be in good shape.

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you had the courage to come on here. Now, I hope you didn't throw your only punch and then run. Stay on here and contend for the truth, if you will.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2009 11:55AM by LearningPoint.

Just a thought for those who keep pointing to all the great things Mike and Turning Point have done for them. I would never deny that good has come from there, but can things that were once good go awry? Can places that do a lot of good for people and the community (such as the Mormon Church) be ultimately wrong and lead people into rejecting the truth of Scripture? Yes!

Good deeds are not a sign of being in the truth. Also, life is not static. People/churches may start out well (do lots of worthy things) and yet end in disaster (become unfaithful to the truth).

Ezekiel 18:24-30

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Quote
movingon
Pig squeal - Interesting to me that you think because of a conversation you had while working on their yard, that you know their hearts. They told you they want to not take a paychek from the church so the pursuing other companies they own outside of the church. So when do they work for the church? I have heard that office hrs are used for these outside businesses and some have questioned why should the church pay for that,and SOMA too. They get paid salaries from soma and about half their time in office is spent doing soma work, but they still collect their very large church paycheck. Mikes heart and intention may have been to do all he told you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Also you need to know that many people pitched in for mike landscaping, for his garage and many other projects. very little has had to come from his own pocket. as for getting to sit down with mike to discuss these things. well it wont happen. he has instructed his staff that he will not meet with people except staff elders and deacon and other pastors. the common response to someone who is concerned that a sheep may be leaving is "let them go" . I really do not think you have an inside view of the truth here. Many people have tried to meet with mike- all to no avail. it is your decision to stay at tpc and i hope you grow spiritually and find the truth for yourself. please do not take all that leadership say as the gospel truth. search out the scripture and see if it lines up. Tpc has a way of saying it is the best church around, the most loving. this is dangerous because God opposes the proud. tpc is one church of many, and many are very good loving and bible preaching churches. becareful to not isolate yourself to one school of thought, being that my school is better than yours. God will not be mocked. you know that elders and pastors are held to a higher standard than the rest so accountability is very important. At the leadership mtg where pastor jackie resigned they presented a whole new shift the church will be taking. One that is very different from being an elder led church. United global ministries is the new apostolic network. there will be very little if any accountability. Iam sure that many there do not even understand what that means. i would highly suggest you find out what you believe about an apostle led church. I would venture to say that you do not know mikes heart on a lot of the issues posted here. still welcome to the forum, there is never anything wrong with sharing of ones thoughts and feelings. May God reveal truth to you as you have your own ability to go straight to Him for tese answers. I hope you will begin to question authority and not blindly submit. tpc didnt begin this way and hopefully it will not end this way either.

Once again, Mike has latched on to the latest fad to tickle his ears.

Painful journey, Moving on & learning point.

Thank-you for your information. Good points! God Bless you all as you keep sharing the truth through God's word.

Outreach

Quote
LearningPoint
Just a thought for those who keep pointing to all the great things Mike and Turning Point have done for them. I would never deny that good has come from there, but can things that were once good go awry? Can places that do a lot of good for people and the community (such as the Mormon Church) be ultimately wrong and lead people into rejecting the truth of Scripture? Yes!

Good deeds are not a sign of being in the truth. Also, life is not static. People/churches may start out well (do lots of worthy things) and yet end in disaster (become unfaithful to the truth).

Ezekiel 18:24-30

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Sadly you are right, no matter how much i would love for Pastor Mike to be the hero, he is sadly changing. His noble intentions are being mis-guided. His mind is going towards the apostolic ministry... which has yet to stand up to scrutinize,... there is a reason that most of the Christian colleges disagree with this movement. The foundational logic of the apostolic seems so backwards, Pastor Mikes authority is not synonymous with God's, they are separate, and pastor Mike is to point the way to God, unfortunately all i have seen is Pastor Mike point the way to the apostles.

I found several articles about The Global Church and the New Apostolic Movement. I suggest you SOMA students start doing your homework.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2009 03:10PM by TurningPointReject.

learning point that is so true what you said about knowing who people are on here, to be honest with you and others becasue some here gave thier names and I know that they are young people I discount what they say instead of looking for the truth in what they have written I am automaticly biased by my opionion of them. Maybe confession will change all that

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TurningPointReject
I found several articles about The Global Church and the New Apostolic Movement. I suggest you SOMA students start doing your homework.

TPR, could you provide some links for us? I know many SOMA students are overtaxed with ministry, work, school, and family responsibilities. Some readily accessible information might just be the difference between checking into it and not checking. Thanks!

And PLEASE, SOMA students, DO check it out. TPR is so right. You have a responsibility for what you will accept as truth and what you will not. In a classroom setting, any classroom, the students should NEVER assume the teacher is infallible. We are to TEST the spirits (this includes the spirits of truth and error) to see if they are from God; we are to study to show ourselves approved unto GOD (not to Mike or any other teacher), workmen that do not need to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth!! (2 Timothy 2:15) God has given YOU His Holy Spirit, whom He promised would lead you into ALL TRUTH! Trust God on this one. Pay attention to those "red flags," or you will find yourself lost in a wilderness of falsehood and joylessness, as I was for a time.