Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
outreach
()
Date: February 15, 2009 02:33AM
pigsqueel, You need to read back on the forum of the people that did try to talk to Mike and he wouldn't listen.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
nooneofanyimportence
()
Date: February 15, 2009 03:21AM
Quote
Forgiveness_101
Hey People of the Fourm,
So i know a lot of you have been rather hurt directly or indirectly by TPC, and you may be angery and confused. I know that it is very hurtfull for me to see you guys out of anger bashing my ex pastor. I still love him and will for awhile, reguardless of his motives and his heart i still thank him for trying to seek God. Although i believe he is misguided. I don't hate him or judge his heart. All i would say is that if you have anything to say that would be helpful to the benifit of others healing on this fourm please say it in a empathtic view. Knowing that we are all having a hard time with it.
Thanks Again
Conner.
forgiveness I feel the same way as you about Mike, but I dont believe this forum is about Mike, some people need to vent someplace, and to know its ok to do so. If you read what Jesus said to the pharises you wont find much empathy in his statements to them. somehow it seems that us christians have been taught that we should be sugar and spice and everything nice. But what we are are humans In need of a saviour and need to be real, we need to be who we are not who we think you or someone else thinks we should be. God used his servant to smite His eneimies Im not sure they did it in a loving and empathtic way. maybe David did say goliath Im so sorry excuse me while I slay you in love and dont hold it against me for chopping off your head, or maybe he should have said goliath I am supposed to love you and be kind so you go ahead and kill all my people and have your way. bless you giant
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
nooneofanyimportence
()
Date: February 15, 2009 03:34AM
Quote
pigsqueel
Hello everybody, my name is Andy Istvan. I have attended Turning Point for about 4 years now. I am aware that Turning Point just like every other church has flaws. I know by personal experience that the love of God is at Turning Point more than any other church I have ever attended. Some of you that have posted on this site believe in God but you have expressed your hurt from Turning Point. Growing up in the church almost my whole life I learned that my relationship with God is most important and after that it’s the salvation of others.
Another thing I have been taught is that when you leave a church, you leave it quietly. If you need to vent out your frustrations, you vent it out on you close friends and family, that’s what they are there for. I think personally writing a bunch of words that may come across as bitter on a website for the whole world to see hurts the Christian church as a whole and in some cases it could cause someone to never come to know God. If I was a non Christian and I read some of the posts on this site, here are some of the questions that would be raised in my mind.
1. How can a God that can’t even keep his church in order, save me from eternal damnation?
2. If all these churches are bad, which one is good?
I have really close friends that have posted on this site and some of the things they brought up to me were personal issues with Pastor Mike. When I asked if they went and set up a meeting with Pastor Mike for these things to be explained to them. They said no, in my opinion, if you don’t know someone’s heart behind their actions, you can’t go about accusing them for their actions. I love Pastor Mike and I know his heart on a lot of the personal issues listed in some of your posts. He’s not a bad guy like a lot of you make him out to be.
First of all one of the issues with Pastor Mike brought up on this forum is his accountability in Turning Point. Have you ever thought about your accountability about some of the things you write on this site. Who’s holding you accountable when you won’t even post your name and choose to remain anonymous? When I worked at Pastor Mike’s house doing some landscaping, working for my brothers landscaping company which got paid from Pastor Mike with no discounts, I had the opportunity to talk to him and the rest of his family on a daily basis. While working there he shared with me his heart on a lot of personal issues and I know that one of the biggest issues brought up about Pastor Mike is money. Pastor Mike and his wife Cindy started Turning Point out of their house over 10 years ago and Pastor Mike was delivering pizza for a living while doing other odd jobs that I can’t remember.
Just in the past few years Pastor Mike and Cindy started an interior design company with some of the other people in the church and they have also been investing in real estate. As far as I am concerned Pastor Mike and Cindy are hard working people just like you and I. When we talked about their business and the real estate that they have invested in, they began to tell us that their number one reason why they have started investing was so that they wouldn’t have to take a paycheck from the church anymore. Their heart is for the people that don’t know God and that extra money that they wouldn’t be taking would go to helping people and advancing the kingdom of God.
I realize that the main reason why most of you have posted on here, is that you feel like you are saving people from going to Turning Point and being hurt. I don’t know if you have considered this yet but maybe some of the words written on the forum can really affect a lot of new believers or people that don’t believe in God to either quit believing in God or choosing at that point to never believe in God no matter how much evidence there is that he is real.
Most people at Turning Point are aware that their church is not perfect just like every other church. I personally have disagreements that I won’t disclose on this forum, but I just make sure I am aware of those things and that if for some crazy reason Turning Point goes totally downhill, I am alright with that and I will go to a new church.
If all of you can sincerely say that you love God and you love people, really take my words into consideration because there are people out there reading these posts that can live the rest of their lives apart from God. I would not wish that upon anybody and to be honest it sickens me to think that I have the ability to keep people from spending eternity with our heavenly father by the words I choose to say on a website. My heart breaks for the people that may have already read some of these posts and have chosen to never believe in God because of what they read.
pigsqueel not everything you have been taught nor everyting I have been taught is the truth. so we must keep seeking, you do kinda remind me of the person I saw on oprah when she had ted haggert on. They showed on of his church members, a woman saying I know he's innocent I know he didn't do what they said he did. Unfortunatly though ted and others knew the truth. and he confessed soon after, remember andy people believed the earth was flat but it didn't make it so. Its is quite possible that you do not know all the facts and some do. you were gone for a long time and when you were here only saw a limited image shown to you of the truth. Your a good hearted person andy and I honor you for efforts to protect Mike. just remember your relationship with God doesnt depend on mikes relationship with God
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: February 15, 2009 04:43AM
pig squeal:
Welcome to the forum. Your participation is welcome here. And I thank you for bringing your perspective to an ongoing discussion. Do you realize that your leaders have instructed people at your church to avoid this forum. You do realize that by posting here you are stepping out from your leaders authority over your life. I, on the other had am glad you choose to think for yourself and are shaking off the authoritarian control of your life by your church. I am glad you chose to post what you posted as it is a perfect description of a dysfunctional system.
blame shifting: "First of all one of the issues brought up with pastor mike...is his accountability. Have you ever thought about some of
your accountability about some of the things your write on this site. Who is holding you accountable..." Or "If all of you can sincerely
say that you love God and you love people, really take my words into consideration because there are people out there reading these
posts that can live the rest of their lives apart from God."
denial: "if you don’t know someone’s heart behind their actions, you can’t go about accusing them for their actions. I love Pastor Mike and I know his heart on a lot of the personal issues listed in some of your posts. He’s not a bad guy like a lot of you make him out to be."
minimizing:"Most people at Turning Point are aware that their church is not perfect just like every other church. I personally have disagreements that I won’t disclose on this forum, but I just make sure I am aware of those things and that if for some crazy reason Turning Point goes totally downhill, I am alright with that and I will go to a new church." Or "I think personally writing a bunch of words that may come across as bitter on a website for the whole world to see hurts the Christian church"
secret keeping: "I have been taught ... when you leave a church, you leave it quietly."
mind reading: " I realize that the main reason why most of you have posted on here, is that you feel like you are saving people from going to Turning Point and being hurt."
exclusive truth: "the love of God is at Turning Point more than any other church I have ever attended."
These are all elements found in dysfunctional families and organizations. In your post you illustrate each of these very vividly. And in so doing, underscore how unhealthy your church seems to be. In the process you side step the concerns that have been posted on this forum that are at the heart of the matter.
By and far the greatest concern here is false doctrine and errant teachings of Turning Point. These teachings have caused more hurt and dissatisfaction with your church than any of the postings on this forum. Instead of addressing these valid issues, you have resorted to shifting blame and minimizing. Though I do not think sarcasm effectively advances the dialogue, for some it is part of the process of healing.
There is a great amount of frustration, dissatisfaction and concern held by many who continue to attend Turning Point. As long as these people's concerns are dismissed, minimized, or worse then people in your church will continue to be hurt, and, perhaps turned off from the church and from God. Many people on this forum have sought to talk with the leaders of your church about their concerns and they have been met with contempt and dismissal and are told that if they have an issue they are 1: divisive 2: spiritually immature 3: ignorant 4:gossipers 5: in a dangerous place 6:thats just the way it is and its not open for discussion.
As for those who haven't addressed their concerns with the leaders it is because the leaders cultivate a culture of closed communication. Communication flows only one direction. They have seen what happens to others when concerns are brought before the elders and "pastors".
Please know that we hold each other accountable on this forum. Many can testify to being called on the carpet for their content or tone. We do it in love and we respect the right of those to disagree with us. You are free to disagree with our methods, with our arguments. But realize that these concerns are legitimate concerns. If you want to address these concerns and share with us "Mike's heart" on the personal issues "listed in some of our posts" please, by all means, enlighten us.
Once again, welcome to the forum.
Welcome to the forum. Your participation is welcome here. And I thank you for bringing your perspective to an ongoing discussion. Do you realize that your leaders have instructed people at your church to avoid this forum. You do realize that by posting here you are stepping out from your leaders authority over your life. I, on the other had am glad you choose to think for yourself and are shaking off the authoritarian control of your life by your church. I am glad you chose to post what you posted as it is a perfect description of a dysfunctional system.
blame shifting: "First of all one of the issues brought up with pastor mike...is his accountability. Have you ever thought about some of
your accountability about some of the things your write on this site. Who is holding you accountable..." Or "If all of you can sincerely
say that you love God and you love people, really take my words into consideration because there are people out there reading these
posts that can live the rest of their lives apart from God."
denial: "if you don’t know someone’s heart behind their actions, you can’t go about accusing them for their actions. I love Pastor Mike and I know his heart on a lot of the personal issues listed in some of your posts. He’s not a bad guy like a lot of you make him out to be."
minimizing:"Most people at Turning Point are aware that their church is not perfect just like every other church. I personally have disagreements that I won’t disclose on this forum, but I just make sure I am aware of those things and that if for some crazy reason Turning Point goes totally downhill, I am alright with that and I will go to a new church." Or "I think personally writing a bunch of words that may come across as bitter on a website for the whole world to see hurts the Christian church"
secret keeping: "I have been taught ... when you leave a church, you leave it quietly."
mind reading: " I realize that the main reason why most of you have posted on here, is that you feel like you are saving people from going to Turning Point and being hurt."
exclusive truth: "the love of God is at Turning Point more than any other church I have ever attended."
These are all elements found in dysfunctional families and organizations. In your post you illustrate each of these very vividly. And in so doing, underscore how unhealthy your church seems to be. In the process you side step the concerns that have been posted on this forum that are at the heart of the matter.
By and far the greatest concern here is false doctrine and errant teachings of Turning Point. These teachings have caused more hurt and dissatisfaction with your church than any of the postings on this forum. Instead of addressing these valid issues, you have resorted to shifting blame and minimizing. Though I do not think sarcasm effectively advances the dialogue, for some it is part of the process of healing.
There is a great amount of frustration, dissatisfaction and concern held by many who continue to attend Turning Point. As long as these people's concerns are dismissed, minimized, or worse then people in your church will continue to be hurt, and, perhaps turned off from the church and from God. Many people on this forum have sought to talk with the leaders of your church about their concerns and they have been met with contempt and dismissal and are told that if they have an issue they are 1: divisive 2: spiritually immature 3: ignorant 4:gossipers 5: in a dangerous place 6:thats just the way it is and its not open for discussion.
As for those who haven't addressed their concerns with the leaders it is because the leaders cultivate a culture of closed communication. Communication flows only one direction. They have seen what happens to others when concerns are brought before the elders and "pastors".
Please know that we hold each other accountable on this forum. Many can testify to being called on the carpet for their content or tone. We do it in love and we respect the right of those to disagree with us. You are free to disagree with our methods, with our arguments. But realize that these concerns are legitimate concerns. If you want to address these concerns and share with us "Mike's heart" on the personal issues "listed in some of our posts" please, by all means, enlighten us.
Once again, welcome to the forum.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Forgiveness_101
()
Date: February 15, 2009 04:54AM
Hello again,
I am sorry i don't think i conveyed myself properly, as it was 3 in the morning. When i was saying that we should be more empathic, i do not mean empathic to Mike (as i am). I mean to the people hurting, like me and many others. If you use your experience with how you worked through your issues, maybe more people would be able to receive you. I may be sympathetic to mike because it feels like you just cut off some one who has done so much good in your life, and i have seen the good he has done, that is undeniable, but i don't think that the ends justify the means. So that is why i am leaving. He is hurting people and he isn't seeking out their healing. I understand there is a time for brutality, and a time for peace. Proverbs 29:11, says a fool gives vent to his anger, so please i would plead my case on that, but i understand that people are not perfect.
Thank you all for your suport and love. Also i thank you for your wisdom, and passion
Conner
I am sorry i don't think i conveyed myself properly, as it was 3 in the morning. When i was saying that we should be more empathic, i do not mean empathic to Mike (as i am). I mean to the people hurting, like me and many others. If you use your experience with how you worked through your issues, maybe more people would be able to receive you. I may be sympathetic to mike because it feels like you just cut off some one who has done so much good in your life, and i have seen the good he has done, that is undeniable, but i don't think that the ends justify the means. So that is why i am leaving. He is hurting people and he isn't seeking out their healing. I understand there is a time for brutality, and a time for peace. Proverbs 29:11, says a fool gives vent to his anger, so please i would plead my case on that, but i understand that people are not perfect.
Thank you all for your suport and love. Also i thank you for your wisdom, and passion
Conner
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: February 15, 2009 04:55AM
pig squeal:
by the way, You feel free to judge that Mike has a "good heart" and that his intentions are "good" and that he is a "good guy". Likewise it is fine for others on this forum to come to a completely different conclusion regarding Mike based on Mike's behavior, actions and theology.
by the way, You feel free to judge that Mike has a "good heart" and that his intentions are "good" and that he is a "good guy". Likewise it is fine for others on this forum to come to a completely different conclusion regarding Mike based on Mike's behavior, actions and theology.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
nooneofanyimportence
()
Date: February 15, 2009 05:30AM
p.s. pig squeel I remember someone taking a collection to pay for mike and cyndi's yard work at the new house I do believe I paid for some of it mike may have handed you the money but someone else gave it to him.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: February 15, 2009 05:48AM
An observation that many people in Sacramento have made is the amount of Tony worship that is going on. it sounds like TPC is dealing with the same issue call it Mike worship.
BraveHeart
BraveHeart
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Painfuljourney
()
Date: February 15, 2009 06:13AM
Question: "What does the Bible say about the prosperity gospel?"
Answer: In the prosperity gospel, also known as the “Word of Faith,” the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite—God uses the believer. Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The prosperity gospel movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about “constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.)
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and instructed the Ephesians to avoid anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He cannot work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe. As in the name “Word of Faith” implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than who we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word of Faith emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.”
Answer: In the prosperity gospel, also known as the “Word of Faith,” the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite—God uses the believer. Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The prosperity gospel movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about “constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.)
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and instructed the Ephesians to avoid anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He cannot work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe. As in the name “Word of Faith” implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than who we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word of Faith emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.”
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: February 15, 2009 06:52AM
sounds like there is some Mike worship going on at TPC.
this is the same thing that is going on at RLc in Sacramento.
BraveHeart
this is the same thing that is going on at RLc in Sacramento.
BraveHeart
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