I am a person of faith and hope, but I'm also a realist.

Realistically, leopards can't change their spots.
Realistically, people don't change their character overnight.
I believe, however, that people can change. But usually--for the sake of helping us grow closer to Himself and teaching us important life lessons--God takes us through long processes that change us OVER TIME.

Has Jeff Barnes, during his time under Mike Villamor's leadership, demonstrated that he will compromise what is right and true in order to please people? Yes. Yes, he has. Time and again.

So right now, if he was faced with doing something wildly unpopular and difficult and ego crushing in order to remain in the truth and please God alone, do you think he would do it? Not many pastors would, but every one of them should, and every one of them who is not ready to do just that should resign his pulpit until he is ready to do such a thing. We need these kinds of true leaders right now. We need them desperately.

But that kind of character is hard to come by, and it doesn't come by hocus-pocus, emotionally whipped up self-proclaimed resolutions made in the heat of a worship service or a personal time with God. It comes by making one small right decision after another. It comes in the mundane, everyday decisions and choices that we so often count as insignificant in the course of a day. It comes, as it did for Moses, from things like spending years and years tending sheep in a faithful manner when nobody is around for miles and miles to see or hear or know what we're doing--but we're doing it with integrity anyway just because it's the right thing to do.

Does Jeff have this kind of character? Only God knows for sure, but the evidence available to us in recent memory should remind us not to hold our breath for any miraculous changes in the character of Turning Point. As long as man-pleasing lives in the leader's heart, it will flourish in the lives of the followers, as well, and while the personality of the church may change a bit, it's fatal flaws will live on.

The scriptures record that Jesus didn't entrust himself to any man, because he knew what was in man. We would be wise to do the same. It doesn't mean that we don't need to seek to be trustworthy people, but it does mean that we shouldn't invest our trust in men in a way that belongs only to God.

Pray that Jeff will become a worthy leader, but don't expect him to suddenly become something or someone he has never been yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2010 03:58PM by LearningPoint.

However, the case could still be dealt with effectively (holding the Villamors acocuntable) and yet quietly (not brining public shame on the name of Christ) by not contacting the media and by seeking to keep the case within the confines of mediation rather than going to trial. Maybe Daughter of Dorcas knows if and/or how this might best be accomplished.

First, Mike would have to wrap his mind around and accept that fact that he has done something wrong. Pursuant to the information provided from various sources at the time of his departure to Texas -- Mike is under the delusion that he has done nothing wrong. Based on information from various sources who all reported similar information about the account of the ""Sabbatical" requirement of Mike and Cyndi by the TPC elders, Mike wanted to negotiate to his advantage and agenda and that had nothing to do with submitting with humility to the requirements of the TPC elders on him. Mike was used to having those around him be willing to compromise or give in to his will rather than Mike submitting in humility to anyone including the Elders. Short of Mike having a revelation from the Lord similar to Paul's revelation on the Damascus Road and submitting with humility to the type of action you propose, there is nothing anyone can do. However, former TPC members who are interested in getting a refund of their donation, because the money was used in a manner which had nothing to do with the purpose that the money was solicited for, could file a complaint with the Washington State Attorney Generals Office if TPC fails to respond promptly to their refund request. If the State Attorney General's office could choose to investigate Mike and TPC if they received enough complaints from individuals for the same issue, ie the misuse of stewardship funds and the failure to notify and offer refunds to those who donated when TPC started using the Stewardship for everything except what it was intended for including a source of $50K in severance pay for Mike.

D of D

You know, I'm all for second (and third and forth....) chances. I have already dealt with my own anger. I am willing to give J&K a chance. But, I would be lying if I didn't say that Jeff's little speech on Sunday would have been more meaningful if it had happened a week earlier, before Jackie made her statements public. It now appears as though Jeff continues to do damage control. I hope I'm wrong.

D of D, would it be possible for the defrauded individuals to retain a lawyer and deal with this through a law office without it becoming public? Are there any lawyers who would be willing to pursue this for a percentage of the money that is recovered? I am obviously NOT legal savvy.

If Mike and Cyndi received legal papers in the mail regarding this (from those who wish to get on board with it--and we could contact people to let them know they have the option to do so), wouldn't M & C then need to get a lawyer themselves? THAT should make them take this seriously and consider what they might have done wrong.

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Daughter of Dorcas
However, the case could still be dealt with effectively (holding the Villamors acocuntable) and yet quietly (not brining public shame on the name of Christ) by not contacting the media and by seeking to keep the case within the confines of mediation rather than going to trial. Maybe Daughter of Dorcas knows if and/or how this might best be accomplished.

First, Mike would have to wrap his mind around and accept that fact that he has done something wrong. Pursuant to the information provided from various sources at the time of his departure to Texas -- Mike is under the delusion that he has done nothing wrong. Based on information from various sources who all reported similar information about the account of the ""Sabbatical" requirement of Mike and Cyndi by the TPC elders, Mike wanted to negotiate to his advantage and agenda and that had nothing to do with submitting with humility to the requirements of the TPC elders on him. Mike was used to having those around him be willing to compromise or give in to his will rather than Mike submitting in humility to anyone including the Elders. Short of Mike having a revelation from the Lord similar to Paul's revelation on the Damascus Road and submitting with humility to the type of action you propose, there is nothing anyone can do. However, former TPC members who are interested in getting a refund of their donation, because the money was used in a manner which had nothing to do with the purpose that the money was solicited for, could file a complaint with the Washington State Attorney Generals Office if TPC fails to respond promptly to their refund request. If the State Attorney General's office could choose to investigate Mike and TPC if they received enough complaints from individuals for the same issue, ie the misuse of stewardship funds and the failure to notify and offer refunds to those who donated when TPC started using the Stewardship for everything except what it was intended for including a source of $50K in severance pay for Mike.

D of D

There are those (including a former Elder) who have said Mike's actions toward Jackie were driven by a personal vendetta. If this is true, then did not Jeff willingly and knowingly participate in this attack not only on Jackie but, ultimately, upon the church? If Jeff were an active accomplice in this heinous act then one has to ask what other schemes did Jeff willingly join with Mike to accomplish?

Am I confused or did Jeff, also, call on the church to sacrifice for the building fund while he joined Mike and bought into the Aspen neighborhood? Is Jeff really the right person to lead TPC forward into a new direction or is he himself too mired in the DNA of both Mike and Tony to be effective in bringing needed change?

Only time will tell.

Regarding Mike's departure: What reason, this time, was the congregation given for their sudden departure? Were they not told that Mike and Cyndi needed to leave in order to escape ongoing harassment? Were they not told that they left so they could seek much needed rest? If so, does this not sound like more of the same old thing from the leaders? Cover, hide, deny, portray Mike as the victim...

Mike received a severance. What about Cyndi? How much was her severance? Are they now on staff at another church or ministry somewhere else? If so, did the leaders of Turning Point know about this arrangement?

So many questions...I suspect these will remain unanswered for some time...

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Brokenhearted
You know, I'm all for second (and third and forth....) chances. I have already dealt with my own anger. I am willing to give J&K a chance. But, I would be lying if I didn't say that Jeff's little speech on Sunday would have been more meaningful if it had happened a week earlier, before Jackie made her statements public. It now appears as though Jeff continues to do damage control. I hope I'm wrong.

The only problem with the idea of giving folks chances when they are leading a whole flock of people is that leadership is not the right place for a learning curve on basic issues of character. Let Jeff and Kim devleop their character outside of the arena of leadership of a sizable congregation. Churches need proven leaders who know the difference between sound doctrine and false teaching. I know even the best leaders are flawed people, yes, but they ought not to be stumbling around in high levels of personal insecurity that render them incapable of doing what's right when they need to.

I'm not trying to bash Jeff and Kim. I'm just saying they're going to be chewed up and spit out by the pressures of leadership if they don't have the courage and conviction to walk in uncompromising truth (without authoritarianism) and the humility to be accountable to a REAL elder board as well as to the people for how they lead, including what they teach.

As a leader, if a pastor can't sort out what's wrong within himself and the church he's leading, if he needs to call in a professional consultant to do that, then he probably shouldn't be leading the church. Buddy was right--I think it was Buddy who said it--all Jeff needs to do is come on here and read to get all the clues he needs about where to begin making changes, but he's still under the impression that the people here are gossips and slanderers. He's still infected to the core with Mike Villamor's values and skewed perspectives on church body life. He may wish not to be, but he'll need a time of detox, serving in a healthy church before he'll ever know how to lead a church into a healthy existence. That's just the nature of how brainwashing works--you gotta be deprogrammed to see clearly again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2010 12:35AM by LearningPoint.

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Brokenhearted
You know, I'm all for second (and third and forth....) chances. I have already dealt with my own anger. I am willing to give J&K a chance. But, I would be lying if I didn't say that Jeff's little speech on Sunday would have been more meaningful if it had happened a week earlier, before Jackie made her statements public. It now appears as though Jeff continues to do damage control. I hope I'm wrong.

I didn't misunderstand you, though, Brokenhearted. It definitely appears that leadership at TP doesn't know how to do the right thing just for the sake of integrity and God-pleasing. They're like Gumby dolls that bend themselves into whatever posture they need to assume in the moment so that it SEEMS like they're eager to do what's right. They take their cues situationally instead of from a healthy conscience and strong convictions (based in a sound understanding of the scriptures).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2010 01:32AM by LearningPoint.

There is an apt analogy that has some popularity right now.



"You drove the car into the ditch..."



I wonder if this applies to the current leaders at TPC?

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reposted by Daughter of Dorcas from another member
However, the case could still be dealt with effectively (holding the Villamors acocuntable) and yet quietly (not brining public shame on the name of Christ) by not contacting the media and by seeking to keep the case within the confines of mediation rather than going to trial. Maybe Daughter of Dorcas knows if and/or how this might best be accomplished. ...

D of D

It's really not all that difficult if you have a group that is under a great amount of influence from the church. Even some ex church members have friends or family still there so they may not want to make any waves. They just need to follow the example of the Catholic church - deny a problem, ignore the allegations and then transfer the offending priest somewhere else. No problem; just a few sex offenders moved around until it looked good.
Well the laws of the land are here for a reason and ignoring and covering up any possible crimes by M/C will only make it worse. The truth is the truth regardless of how inconvenient it is to some people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2010 06:08AM by Mville04.

TPCWOC. IT is amazing how God can build churches and shut them down. TPC was awesome at one time, I have never felt the presence of the lord until I attended a easter service in 2003. Life was good, small group was awesome, people were REAL. WHAT HAPPENED??? Man decided what to worship. They created an idol that was based on building the church up instead of building the Gospel up. TPC is the best church, we are the main reason for summer jubilee, we helped the city clean up the city, we have the best elders, our elders and pastors are worth imitating. Do you hear all the WE and our?? It's all about TPC and not about Jesus. After my wife and I left we have never been contacted by anyone. 5 years and gone like we never existed. That really humbled us how we depended on man to make us feel worthy, instead of relying on Jesus. The roots of this church are spoiled and contaminated and needs to be pulled out and re-planted. I really do pray for TPC that the Lord will show mercy and grace towards their rebuilding process. TPC is where i met Jesus for the first time, I will never forget that.