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Forgiveness_101
Actually learningpoint i value your opinion.

I actually don't have that big of a problem with swearing, I think gossip and slander are issues that should be worked on before swearing, i have heard him called the swearing pastor. Although i do understand the problem with that biblically. I think that someones character is not dependent on what words they use, although i understand that James speaks all about it... and tells me that if i can control my tongue, that basically i can control anything else....

Despite that difference, i don't like what i have heard on the Emerging church.

Oh yeah with the sermon Mark preached, this is what i thought on it:

What was the writer (author) referring too?
Who was mark referring too?-leader referenced two elders.
If "shut up and do what you are told" is what the author actually said, maybe the author was getting angry at the people, what was the context of what the author said?
What did he mean when he said it?
Maybe it was a rebuke?
Last time i checked "grumbling" about a church looks like Sally complains to Suzie about Jan who just brought an issue up with her. (maybe Jan didn't bring it up in the right way, but if swearing is bad, then so is grumbling). Why not go ask Jan about it?[/quo


since ALL men sin and fall short of the glory of God I think ALL includes pastors elders people who post on this forum, believers and nonbellievers. so finding a church that has a perfect pastor who is without sin may be a little tough, even Jesus's deciples made mistakes and were imperfect. It would be great to see how they (the deciples) were really like, instead of seeing the perfect image we paint of them in our mind. I myself get asked about our new church, and I just say if Gods spirit is there I want to be there. If I sense His leaving because of mans ego, ambition, and just plain bad doctrine then I'm leaving, I'm not basing my churh attendence on the pastor anymore, Ive learned my lesson.

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Forgiveness_101
Dear outreach and LearningPoint,

I have been in contact via face book with a youth pastor from Mars Hill here is a copy of our dialogue...

So, because of my old church i am very weary of churches, and i research crazy about them. MHC is no different, but to my dismay only to find a youtube video where Mark is saying... what does that mean in the Greek "shut up and do what you were told", I would like to know the context of that sermon...context is everything. Although the context of the video was that you need to not ask questions and just do what you are told. Like Mark is trying to control you. You will submit, you will do this... because i say so type of attitude and I speak out of the bible so listen to me!

I have heard some rumors about Mars Hill, and instead of blindly believing it i am going to ask you questions.

Can the elders "fire" Mark?
Were the by laws changed to make it so he could not be dismissed?
Is there a way i can get a copy of the by laws?
Is there a way i can get a financial statement,showing me where my money would be going if i tithed to this church? :ie the salary of the pastors and the salary of the staff and how much is put towards missions, ect...

Thank you for your help,
Please note this is not a personal attack against you, but just some tough inquires about the personal affairs of the church.






Conner,

I have no problem with your researching and asking questions. I totally understand, especially considering what has happened with you in the past.

The You Tube video comes from the Philippians series. I assume you already know that Mars Hill generally goes through books of the Bible. The passage that Mark is referencing is Phil 2:14 which says that were should not grumble or question. His also mentions two leaders being rebuked in the Philippian church. YOu can see this in Phil 4:2. I believe that Mark is correctly using these scriptures in the context that the Philippian church was in. Note that the passage doesn't say that you can't question the elders, but it says that we shouldn't grumble. These are very different things. Our elders are welcome to people asking questions, but they are not ok with people being divisive.

As far as Mars Hill goes, at the time of this sermon, two of our elders had just been fired. I don't want to get into it too much b/c I don't want to malign them. I will tell you that they were fired for intentionally sharing confidential information. The elders were in the process of rewriting the by-laws of the church and were all in agreement that they wouldn't discuss them outside of the elder council. These two elders did so anyway. They were given TONS of opportunities to repent. One of them did repent, and he was reinstalled as an elder. He is no longer at Mars Hill, but he works at an Acts 29 church in the area that is closely tied to Mars Hill. We have no beef with him or him with us.

The other elder that was fired was given TONS of opportunities to repent but never did. I actually knew this elder and his family very well, and I still love them very much. It's sad, but he has been extremely stubborn. Our elders reached out to him constantly for months. One of our elders still talks to him in an effort to bring reconciliation. It would be great if it happened, but it hasn't so far. Like I said before, I don't want to get into lots of specific examples. It's one of those things where - if 30 of your fellow elders and your best friends say that you're in sin, they're probably right!

Now to your other questions:

Yes, the elders can fire Mark just as easily as any other elder. He has no special standing at Mars Hill whatsoever. He totally could. He founded the church and set up the church's governing structure. It's a testament to his humility that he put a system in place in which he could be easily fired.

No, in fact the new by-laws make it easier for him to be dismissed.

I have no idea if you can get a copy of the by laws or the budget. We are a financially honest church - the most honest I've ever been to. We don't get into a ton of specifics on Sunday mornings, as most people don't want to hear it. What is widely known is that 10% of the money that we take in goes directly to church planting through the Acts 29 network. In addition, we also pay all the costs of the 5 staff people who work for Acts 29 including salaries, office space, conferences, etc. We are committed to mission in the sense that we believe that the most effective way to do evangelism in an area is to plant a church (or lots of churches) there. We do this internationally through Acts 29 in Europe and Australia. We also give money to Vision Nationals, which is an organization in India that plants churches, runs a couple of seminaries, and starts orphanages around the country. As far as money that stays at Mars Hill, about 50% of that money goes to the campuses. This money pays the staff salaries, building cost, ministry costs, etc. The other half goes to the central dept which includes IT, podcasts/vodcasts, video, books, the Resurgence (the theology website we started - theresurgence.com), production dept, HR, financial dept, and Mars Hill Network (this is the newest branch - it figures out the best way for us to plant more Mars Hill campuses and weighs the options as to where we will plant next).

As far as salaries are concerned, I don't know exact numbers. P. Mark doesn't get paid much from Mars Hill, as he lives off of his speaking engagements and book deals. In addition, he gives a lot of the money from his books back to the church. I don't know exactly how much he makes, but I can tell you that, having been to his house, know what car he drives, etc., I can tell you that he doesn't live a lavish lifestyle. I can say the same for all of the people on staff at the Shoreline campus. We all make less than the average salary for people in full-time ministry in this area. I assure you, we don't do it for the money :-)

Wow, this is an insanely long answer. I hope it's helpful. These are good questions, and I don't take offense to them. Please let me know if there's anything I can clarify. Good to hear from you!




Today at 12:41am
Yes this will be helpful, as i have been talking to my friends about this and this will only help to bring more clarity to your name as a church, and my faith in God (that some pastors are not somehow trying to deceive me for some money)

It is hard not to go that way in my mind as I was exposed to it....

Although i do have one concern.

And note this is why i have it:
My old pastor tried to change the bylaws of his church so he would still be "apostle" over the church, although they could fire him from speaking every sunday, he would always get the final say in the church affairs... this about made me want to throw up, as there are atheists whom i have known in my life that hold fast to morals more than him.

So to hear that MHC was doing it (changing the bylaws) in secret, only makes me think that there is something to hide... and that just leads to a multiple number of implications... and more questions....

I do appreciate you coming straight and telling flat out.

I will be in prayer and concider what you have said, thank you

Although i understand the church wanting to keep elders meeting private, although this is just a very touchy subject for me to talk about and deal with. I will do my best to not project my old church on to you guys... but i inevitably will... don't be afraid to hint at that if you think it is relevant in an answer.