I think the next questions should be: "How, exactly, is this accountability structured and practice? What, if any, recourse do the members of TPcWOC have when Mike fails? Does this accountability provide for the ability to discipline, and if need be, remove from ministry? If Mike is under these two men for authority and accountability is it okay for members of TPcWOC to submit to accountability of others who are not part of TPcWOC? To whom are Tony and Casey accountable? If these men are not part of the day to day going ons at TPcWOC how can they effectively hold Mike accountable?Did a quorum of members support this decision to place Mike under the accountability of these two men? Have the bylaws been changed to reflect this structure of accountability? Or is this an informal form of accountability? What role do the Elders play in Mike's accountability?

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LearningPoint

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WonderingNow
Absolutely, positively, downright ABSURD! Shouldn't a pastor be under the authority of his elder board. Practically, from a day-to-day operational perspective how can Casey Treat or Tony cunningham have a clue as to what is going on?

Yes, it's sort of like saying that as a citizen I'm accountable to the governor and the mayor. ABSURD is exactly the right word to use, and how about BOGUS? The bottom line is that Mike is only (obviously) doing this to stave off the questions about his accountability. He has no intention of submitting to anyone--not he, the apostle with the WORLD outreach center.

People in the church who were just as brainwashed had managed to understand what was going on an had managed to leave TPC. But this unacountability of Mike and Cyndi doesn't even faze the elders. Why? Because they're stupid. They must be totally brain dead sheeple. The elders of TPC are lap-dogs who are guttless, ignoranct zombies.

I just love the video where Kim Barnes stares blankly into the camera with that idiotic smile on her face as she tells how she is willing to give up all her money, her house and even her livelyhood to make sure Mike gets his church. And there is Jeff sitting next to her with a similar blank expressionless grin on his face as she is saying this. I mean, what is Mike putting in that Kool-Aid?
More importantly What kind of a person (let alone a Pastor) could even consider asking someone to do this?
But he DID! He came to the dumb-ass elders and told them the Lord had spoken, gave them a timeline and asked "so are we doing it or not?"
What an ASS!
But his sheeple just rolled over and gave till they bled. And Mike smiled at the ignorance and gulability of his lap-dogs. He throws them a little bone and pats them on the head and says "Run along now. I'll call you when I need you." Then crawls back into his hole to count his money."

Honestly; is anyone surprised that there is no "acountability"?

“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902), historian and moralist. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Mk. 10:25) Double honor will not get Pastor Mike or any of the rest of the Pastoral Staff to Heaven. In a speech to the English House of Lords in 1770 William Pitt said “Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it.” William Pitt, the Elder, The Earl of Chatham, was the British Prime Minister from 1766 to 1778. This paints a pretty good picture of why so many who start out with promise lose their way and their direction. When we fail to learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. Pastor Mike’s arrogance and pride are taking him down a road none of us wanted to see him take, but he refused wise counsel and instead insisted on absolute authority without oversight or question by his flock. The next act of this play will be The Downfall of Pastor Mike – A Monumental Mess and Disgrace of His Own Making. God does not let those who scatter his sheep to remain long. In Ezekiel 34 it is clear that he will remove any shepherd who fails to fulfill his calling and begins to feed himself at the expense of his flock. Pastor Mike has fed himself and others from the flock he was charged with feeding and nurturing. He will pay the price for ignoring God’s word and wise counsel so many tried to give. Not at our hands, we are not to judge, but God alone is the one who should and can deal with this mess.


Saddened

Checks on Power and Authority in the New Testament

Summary of an article by Dr. Harold Bussell, author of the book, Unholy Devotion, Why Cults Lure Christians.

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There are two problems with accountability in the church: one is that people fail to be accountable to others. Another is that when people are accountable often that willingness to be responsible is abused by leaders.

Have you ever had a Christian leader imply that you were either rebellious or disobedient to God because you didn't take their advice?
Have you ever had a Christian leader tell you that you had an evil spirit or a spirit of rebellion simply because you asked questions?
Have you ever challenged a leader and they saw this as an assault on their authority?
Have you ever felt that a leader (or leaders) was (were) lording it over you?
Does it ever bother you when a Christian group, community, or bible study all look, act and talk alike?
Has another Christian ever told you that they were your shepherd?
If any of these questions ignite a positive response in you, you may be involved in an aberrant and potentially destructive relationship or group.

The New Testament gives us some basic guidelines too protect us from getting involved in relationships which are destructive both emotionally and spiritually.

Peter was accountable to others
He carefully explained his position to eat with and baptize Gentiles. He did not presume that his position as an apostle was beyond question. He explained his actions and answered questions. He did not see this accountability as an assault on his authority. (Acts 11:1-4; Acts 11:18)

Paul encouraged challenge
Paul encouraged the Corinthians to judge his words and evaluate them to see if they were appropriate or not. (1 Corinthians 10:15)

Paul confronted Peter
When Peter, who was an apostle before Paul, moved from grace to legalism as the way of faith, Paul confronted him. Paul did not say, "I cannot question those in authority over me." (Galatians 2:11-14)

Peter was open
Peter was open and answered questions about his behavior with Cornelius. Subsequently the apostles and elders met to consider the issue once more, as there were many questions and disagreements. They did not say, "Peter is a spiritual authority over us so we cannot challenge him." (Acts 11 and 15)

Problems did not cause despair
Problems arose between Peter and Paul before the whole congregation, (Galatians 2:11-14), between Paul and Barnabas over John Mark (Acts 15:36-40), and between Paul and the Corinthians over many issues (2 Corinthians). These problems neither ended their relationships nor caused despair that the unity was not achieved instantly. Paul and Peter, Paul and Barnabas, and Paul and the Corinthians worked through these difficulties in time. (Galatians 2:11-14; Acts 15:36-49)

Elders may need confrontation
The New Testament assumes that elders may need confrontation and have the capacity to abuse authority. We are not to be like the world, lording it over one another seeking status for ourselves afraid of losing face before others. Our confidence is in Christ and not in our positions of authority. (1 Timothy 5:19,20; Luke 22:24-27; 1 Peter 5:3; Luke 11:43; Luke 20:46)

No authority structure will usher in a utopia
Paul assumes problems will always exist and we need to deal with them in a certain manner. This includes leadership as well. (Colossians 3:12-15)

God is the only person who never has to apologize. If Peter could go off base after Pentecost, so can leaders today.

Jesus and shepherding
Jesus did not force his disciples to submit to Him. He did not duplicate Himself in them. He always left them with their personalities and attitudes.

Jesus went into the garden to pray. He asked the disciples to pray, but they went to sleep. His discipleship program left them with wills of their own. They chose to sleep. He did not force His will in the matter. (Matthew 26:37-46)

During Judas' betrayal you do not see Jesus commanding Judas to submit and straighten up. He allowed the man to break rank and to rebel. (Matthew 26:47-50)

The disciples rebuked a man because he was not one of their group. Jesus then rebuked them. He informed them that the man was of Him even though he was not in their group. (Mark 9:38)

After the crucifixion the disciples were so disorganized and confused that they didn't even know that Jesus was the Christ. If He had exercised a strong authority over them, they would have been forced to believe in the resurrection.

No closed meetings
Jesus took the disciples out on a special retreat, and five thousand people went with Him. He taught them all the same things. They did not have greater truths belonging only to a select few.

Paul makes the point that unbelievers were present in New Testament meetings. (1 Cor. 14:16).

God called Saul directly. He didn't use the apostles to speak for Him. Ananias baptized Paul and he was called a disciple not a shepherd. (Acts 9:10-18)

There is no evidence of shepherds (the apostles) indoctrinating Saul through cell group activity. There is no evidence that they sat down with Saul (Paul) and told him how to submit to them. There is no evidence of any "super submission" program.

Words of caution and guidelines
Any discipleship program must keep its eyes on Christ and not on the human leader.

In true discipleship, one is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 4:19; Hebrews 12:2, Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:15; Luke 6:40)

Paul says: Do not be anxious about anything but go to God. He doesn't say elders. (Philippians 4:6-7)

James writes: If anyone lacks wisdom, let him go to God. He doesn't say elders or shepherds. (James 1:5)

Paul asks them to pray for him, not make decisions for him. (Ephesians 6:18-20; Colossians 4:3,4; 1 Thessalonians 5:25)

Paul says: Carry each other's burdens. He also says each person is responsible to carry their own. (Galatians 6:2-5).

Elders are responsible to counsel, encourage, and rebuke on the personal level. So are believers. (2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 2:15; Galatians 6:1-5; Colossians 3:16).

We are to honor those in leadership over us. However, they are to be oversees by example, not force. (Hebrews 13:7)

Jesus only is the head of the Church
Each hand moves independently of the other hand. Each finger and each foot moves independently of the other finger or foot. The head gives the instructions. One finger does not have to ask the other finger for permission to move. The nerves and the muscles in the arm move the finger but never the will of the arm. It is always from the head -- who is Christ.

Paul and Barnabas refused to follow a legalistic rule of submission when it violated their convictions. (Acts 15:36-39)

Many authoritarian discipleship groups claim that the sheep are too dumb to receive direction from God and therefore need shepherds. The letters in the New Testament are written to all -- not just leaders.

In the New Testament the word sheep is used twenty-two times, and pertains to God's children. The word son fifty-six times, heirs thirteen times, saints sixty times. This is not to mention the many times we are referred to as kings, priests, conquerors, overcomers, brethren, etc. To overemphasize the characteristics of sheep is to destroy the greater truth of the word of God.

"Absolute power absolutely corrupts. That's from the Devil by the way. There's no truth to that."
Mike Villamor from sermon at Jake's House.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2009 04:01PM by Mville04.

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Mville04
"Absolute power absolutely corrupts. That's from the Devil by the way. There's no truth to that."
Mike Villamor from sermon at Jake's House.

One only need to look at history to see the truth to both quotes. Leave it to Mike to fail to see the truth when it does not suit him. So now anything that is said that doesn't serve Mike's new world order plan is of the devil? Oh come on, that notion is just to silly for words. I think Mike must have written that sermon from the flesh and not from any Godly perspective. But then his sermons have lacked Godly input since he decided to move to the junior high.

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Mville04
"Absolute power absolutely corrupts. That's from the Devil by the way. There's no truth to that."
Mike Villamor from sermon at Jake's House.

Oh my. ....Does Mike speak at Jake's house often?

I read on facebook a message posted by a soma student. He said that because david loved God so much he trusted a wicked man saul. I hope he didn't learn that in soma and that the statement he made was just a good idea he had. I find running away and hiding in a cave a wierd demonstration of trust. the theme if you love God youll trust your leaders doesnt seem to hold water. otherwise john the baptist didn't love God since he confronted his king harod with his sins and rebuked him. And Jesus didn't trust the religeous leaders the pharisis. and rebuked them and pointed out thier shortcommings. Im pretty sure He loved God. I think what sickens me most about this is that the person who posted this was put into leadership at tp, it makes me wonder just what the criteria is to be a leader there, just what the diffinition of godliness is to leadership of tpwoc

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nooneofanyimportence
I read on facebook a message posted by a soma student. He said that because david loved God so much he trusted a wicked man saul. I hope he didn't learn that in soma and that the statement he made was just a good idea he had. I find running away and hiding in a cave a wierd demonstration of trust. the theme if you love God youll trust your leaders doesnt seem to hold water. otherwise john the baptist didn't love God since he confronted his king harod with his sins and rebuked him. And Jesus didn't trust the religeous leaders the pharisis. and rebuked them and pointed out thier shortcommings. Im pretty sure He loved God. I think what sickens me most about this is that the person who posted this was put into leadership at tp, it makes me wonder just what the criteria is to be a leader there, just what the diffinition of godliness is to leadership of tpwoc

Excellent points, NoOne. The question of trust is an interesting one. Trust is both a noun and a verb. As a noun the object of trust is reliable. It or he has integrity and strength. Its a matter of THEIR character. As a verb it means I place my confidence in someone or something.

Was Saul really a man of integrity? No. Not really. He was not a trustworthy man. Did David place his trust in Saul? Was he confident in Saul? Again, no. Not really. Running and hiding does not demonstrate trust ( as you point out). David placed his trust in God and fell in love with Him . David also loved Saul, but did not trust Saul. Love does not always equal trust. Lets look at this in another light. Lets say a girl loves God. The girl also has a father who is sexually abusive. Should this girl trust her father because she loves God? Absolutely not. The object of my trust may become a recipient of my love. But the object of my love may not be worthy of my trust. I love my oldest son. But I don't trust him with my life when it comes to driving a car. He hasn't proven that he is a strong, reliable driver.

The idea that TPc leaders will say to people "if you love God you will trust me" is a wickedly twisted deception. When you rephrase it you see just how wicked it is: "If you love God, you will see I have integrity and strength and you will rely on and place your confidence in me". In reality the truth is this: "I have found God trustworthy and loving. I have placed my faith in Him and he is becoming the object of my love. Some leaders are worthy of my trust; some leaders are not worthy. All leaders are worthy of my love". My love for God does not mean I blindly follow and devote myself to an earthly leader. To do so, in fact, is to create an Idol out of that leader. God detests those who worship idols.



Twisted lie: David loved God so much he trusted a wicked man-Saul.
Truth: David trusted God so much he was able to love a wicked man-Saul.

I trust God, therefore, I can love my enemies and do good to those who hate me.

So the real question is who is worthy of your trust? Who is reliable? On whom should you depend? Who is strong enough to bear the burdens of your life and carry your weight? Is it Mike? Is it God? Is God worthy of your trust? Is He reliable? Can and will God carry the totality of your burdens? Do you really think Mike can carry your burdens? Is Mike a man of integrity? Do his words match is actions? Mike is worthy of your love. God commands you to love Mike. But is Mike really worthy of your trust?

Be leery of those who teach that you should have a blind trust in someone or something. Such teaching should be a red flag. Not even Jesus asked for blind trust.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2009 01:50AM by TurningPointReject.

I thought this might be relevant to this forum and helpful to some that are just getting out of TPC.

[www.marshillchurch.org]

[www.marshillchurch.org]


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I think this might be helpful as it was healing for me to have this happen. I went to Mars Hill last Sunday, the sermon was on false teachers and characteristics (mike fulfills many of them).

I talked to the youth pastor who is 26 and has his MDIV, a degree Mike would not know much about because of SOMA. I started telling him about my experience at TPC, which i actually think is funny, but was even more entertaining was how much he was laughing at Pastor Mike calling himself an Apostle, and his wife being a Prophetess. I was talking about how they label you with a "critical spirit" (which i understand that there are people who are insanely critical, and it is impossible to please all, but there is no spirit possessing you making you that way, it is a character flaw, that has its ups and downs, and i may be that way, although i don't think so) and how when i started asking questions i was labeled with this, and he started laughing again! He thought these notions of Apostles and Prophets and Critical spirits were laughable.

Anyway this guy had a fun time laughing while i did most of the talking. He was a fun guy and i liked him a lot!