Once again, it's good to revisit the fact that this is a public FORUM--a place where ideas, thoughts, opinions, impressions, concerns, considerations, etc., are offered, discussed, contemplated, kicked around, and agreed, or disagreed upon. But this is not a place where we can exercise control over where others are "coming from." It's a place to listen as well as to speak. It's a place where we can take in what is helpful and turn away from what is not.

I think rather than condemn the content or the posters on this forum, it's best if any one of us just moves on if we feel we've outgrown it or it is no longer helpful to us. There are people coming from all different places who are posting here. This is not a church group, per se. Many of us are part of the Church (I don't mean TP, but the church in general), but we don't claim that this forum represents the Church as a whole. It represents individuals who are sorting through their thoughts and feelings and concerns about (what many of us believe is) a dangerous church.

Terry, (perhaps Saddened would be willing to pass this along to her) it's great that you've come to a frame of heart and mind where you're beyond the sorting and thinking and talking through what's happened to you. But please remember that it was a process for you, too. Please let the others here make their way through to healing in the timing God has for them. If some of the voices on here grate on your heart and mind, pray for them! But remember, God uses many things and many kinds of voices--even donkeys and unsavory characters in Scripture--to accomplish His purposes. Who's to say that some of the voices you find most disturbing might be used by God to work out His purposes in someone else's heart and mind in some way as they pursue the truth? As you know, those who love God find that the most unlikely things are often working together for good in their lives. I wish you well as you move on in peace of heart and mind.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2009 01:46AM by LearningPoint.

fo·rum
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra


1. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
2. A public meeting place for open discussion.
3. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
4. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
5. A court of law; a tribunal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2009 01:53AM by LearningPoint.

Learning Point,

You have a wonderful way with words. I wish I could express myself as well as you and appreciate your ability to see the validity of all views on this forum. It's important to have a safe place where all can express what's on their hearts whether it's good, bad or ugly. You are very wise. Buddy's wife

Quote
Saddened
Hello TPR

I doubt seriously that Terry is ever going to respond to you. She is done reading and posting here. I was able to get in touch with her last evening since she posted her name. She says the criticism off all things TPC, and not just the Pastoral Staff and Leadership which are the real problem is inciting unwarranted anger and she does not want to be a part of that. I think the group she just went through has changed her heart. She seemed to be just as disappointed in some of the posters here as she was in the leadership of TPC. She said she was unwilling to step from one abusive group to another (although) different but still in her estimation a small core group with hardened hearts who were not listening to the Lord and inciting anger in others.

I have to say, I felt her hurt was valid and genuine and her reasoning was sound.

I thought the purpose of this forum was to help people get over hurt, I didn't think it was about hurting people. Isn't that what TPC does? As a former elder is this what you took away with you when you left?

Saddened

D of D we will miss your perspective. Please feel free to stop in and post at anytime. Please, also, extend grace to those who are at very different places in their healing than where you find yourself. I agree with you- the core issue here is the Staff, Deacons, and Elders. However, much like grief, there is a process that people go through as they deal with their hurts and disappointments. And as others have extended you grace in your process, I invite you to extend grace to those here who are not as far along the road.

I would hope that each of us would seek not to be intentionally hurtful towards others-be it others posting here- or those who are attending TPc. A wise man, whom I respect, once said to me, "hurting people hurt people". This is not my attempt to excuse behavior. It is only an attempt to illuminate why some behave the way they do. My prayer is that all who have been hurt at TPc will find healing. I hope this site can contribute to that healing. For some this has been true. For others, perhaps not so true. All the same I pray for healing of hurts.

Finally, allow me to correct an erroneous assumption made by two posters on this thread: I am not nor have I ever been an Elder at TPc. No where on this forum have I stated that I was an Elder...only that I served in a leadership role. I would not want you to assign my comments and tone to someone else based on your assumptions as that would not be fair to them nor is it fair of you to think you know my identity when, in fact, you do not. If you have a pressing need to identify who I am please feel free to message me and I will be willing to discuss this with you.

TPR

This is a public forum. Just because someone went through a group and is now brainewashed with some very one dimensional thinking because of it does not mean that we have to follow them. People need to realize that there are all levels of hurt and frustration on here towards TPC and RLC. Not everyone is in the same place nor will everyone be in the same place at the same time. There is much miscommunication of terms such as anger and bitterness. Some on here skew their definition to fit with The RLC and TPC agenda of villianizing those who speak out regarding the abuse. Others will come on here and speak negatively about absolutely everything TPC or RLC. You have to let them ride it out. Let it go. I know someone still at RLC that heads a ministry. Do I think he is a bad person? No. Do I think the ministry he is leading is bad? No. However, he is brainwashed and has succumbed to the many false teachings including abandoning those around you that are of no use to you. There is no relationship anymore. There is only shunning, resentment, and frustration over my position on RLC, Tony, and the leaders. Hows that for hypocritical. So anyway, I drifted but my point is that you will have a range of perspectives and opinions on here. There have been some who have come on these forums at times and expressed that everything was good with RLC and TPC. You dont bail when you dont win at promoting your agenda. So I wish you happiness DOD. Just know you have a right to come on here and express what you need to express and so be it. At times you and even I will be attacked for it but WTF...........who cares in the long run. Anyway as usual I have rambled enough and am out again. I believe that this is DOD's issue because of the group she went to and what she is being taught and fed there. But then wouldnt that just be succumbing to another leader. People gotta start using their own brains.

I think what D of D is trying to say, what a close friend of mine is saying, is "come on over, the water is fine". Our friends testimony was that life was good after TP. After a time, they never thought about it and it was no longer something they talked about or had any strong feelings about. I struggled thru his description of no bitterness, no need to talk or process, etc. While I was still struggling he was not - but his testimony gave me hope that I would not feel this for forever. I've started to put my feet into the "warm water" where our friends are and you know what - they're right, it's nice. I understand the needs of those who are still processing but I think that if DofD's has had healing she should exercise her desire to minister to those who are still fighting their way though it. I have really enjoyed the positive posts about forgiveness, growth and how others have moved past. I liked Dans take on the float as it was a good reminder of how much we all love and have loved TP. They are our brothers, not distant 3rd cousins in the appalacians that we want to forget about.

I've been asked by M&M to share a dream I had prior to moving into the Jr High. It was simple and short but in my dream Mike was on his knees, with his hands upraised but twisted in agony. He was looking up (face in agony) and he was saying "why" that was all. In my dream I was trying to understand his agony. It wasn't dismay but angry agony so I asked God, in so many words, what had happened... had TP closed? In my dream it was as though God said no, not closed but the ministry was 'given to another'. This is why Mike was in agony. The dream ended and we were certain that this ment TP would be given away to another leader. As time progressed this just seemed strange but we knew there had to be some truth to it. When sabbatical came we thought maybe this was just how mike felt... it actually was.. but I do not think it is the fulfillment of the dream. If the dream is a literal prophetic dream It will be a dark day for him and his family. I will only rejoice when he is restored fully and God does a work in his life like he does to us all. I get to work through all of my charachter flaws and herasies in the privacy of my home, I hurt people one at a time not en mass, nobody builds me up to the place of incorrectibility - my status is low. How hard it must be to be corrected from a great height. I know he has hurt many of you and there has been struggles in our house as well but it is good to give Mercy, even when it is not being asked for.

Die Quietly

I would like to respond to TPR's review of this thread and Die Quietly's post.

Thanks again TPR. You have contributed greatly. You have also been quick to apologize and have been gracious.

Die Quietly thank you for sharing your great story. You and your significant other played a profound role in opening my eyes. I asked DQ to share because when I heard about this dream it cut right to the heart of what was on my own spirit. Most significantly it was both when TP was at a high water mark and the DQ's attitude was completely without malice or anger.

I haven't written in a while in part because my pastor asked me not to while we were doing the class on recovering from church abuse. By the way, I totally agree with Learning Point's view about people being in different places of healing and the freedom of this forum. I also must say I was deeply touched by the work God has done in D of D's heart.

I want to share something that cut me in the heart today. I picked up a book called CROSSING HITLER, it is about the man (Hans Litten) who had a chance to cross examine Hitler in a trial shortly before Hitler came to power.

Before going further. I am NOT comparing Mike to Hitler. That is not my intent. To believe so would be to miss the point entirely.

But this quote from the opening passage of the book shook me. It shakes me because I still am searching and asking God what responsibility do I have in regards to this situation? And even more importantly, what responsibility do those have who are in the inner circle?

"The more we know, the more we think we have learned, the more hopeless it becomes to live and not to be responsible for everything. For everything , and especially for what goes on in the small circle around oneself. That is why it is so difficult to write about Hans Litten....I must tell the Hans Litten story very briefly...But I will tell it, because 'he is part of myself.'" Max Furst, 1973.

I ask you who are leaders at TP. Please be true to your conscience. Do not allow temporary position, power, or honor keep you from facing what you know is true. You can still be a person of honor. You may even save the church and many young believers from great heartbreak and maybe spiritual shipwreck.

At this point I am committed to praying and speaking the truth. I think that is all God has called me to.

Quote
Die Quietly
I've been asked by M&M to share a dream I had prior to moving into the Jr High. It was simple and short but in my dream Mike was on his knees, with his hands upraised but twisted in agony. He was looking up (face in agony) and he was saying "why" that was all. In my dream I was trying to understand his agony. It wasn't dismay but angry agony so I asked God, in so many words, what had happened... had TP closed? In my dream it was as though God said no, not closed but the ministry was 'given to another'. This is why Mike was in agony. The dream ended and we were certain that this ment TP would be given away to another leader. As time progressed this just seemed strange but we knew there had to be some truth to it. When sabbatical came we thought maybe this was just how mike felt... it actually was.. but I do not think it is the fulfillment of the dream. If the dream is a literal prophetic dream It will be a dark day for him and his family. I will only rejoice when he is restored fully and God does a work in his life like he does to us all. I get to work through all of my charachter flaws and herasies in the privacy of my home, I hurt people one at a time not en mass, nobody builds me up to the place of incorrectibility - my status is low. How hard it must be to be corrected from a great height. I know he has hurt many of you and there has been struggles in our house as well but it is good to give Mercy, even when it is not being asked for.

Die Quietly

I'm wondering, did you share this dream with leadership at the time, and what was their response?

I had four dreams in a row - this one being the third and there was a fourth which I can't remember. I shared the first two with both M & C but the first two were benign in nature (not negative). My spouse asked why I hadn't shared the second two, which were very negative dreams and I had forgotten. I may have conveniently forgotten, but forgotten nonetheless. So, the dreams were never shared. The first two were blown off by Cindy and kind of a cheery response from Mike but I walked away feeling as though I wouldn't be taken serious if I shared the 2nd two anyway so why bother. At this point nothing I say would matter to them anyway - I've lost any ability to be heard - who's up next? - my turn is over.

Okay....I remember having a couple of dreams, and sharing them, and being blown off. Then, someone else had a similar dream, it was interpreted as "those who have left TP aren't getting fed, no matter where they are". That didn't sit well with me, but I never spoke up, and honestly didn't give it much thought.....Now, I recognize how prideful and self serving the *interpretation* was.

I've recently been going through some old journals, trying to remember dreams I've had. I always took them to leadership for interpretation, I never discerned anything for myself. It's pathetic.