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wherefromhere
So sorry to hear about pastor Jackie. She was so kind and loving to me and my family. I couldn’t understand why they didn’t mention her resignation today. I saw her in the front row worshiping today and our hearts went out to her. Her sincerity will be an ingredient missed at Turning Point. If she resigned, there must be a very good reason. I hope to call her and ask. In the children’s dept, they said goodbye to her husband. He is a teacher and the drummer. My kids were heartbroken because they really liked him, and they don’t understand. What do you say? We made our decision and will be looking for another church, especially after today’s sermon on sex. It was so inappropriate and unfortunate for all the single and young people. What in the world has the church come to?

I'm listening to it right now.

Interesting: Mike said "...I want to set you free from a few things..." Mike can't set anyone free from anything.

This is a creepy sermon...Mike's frenetic and flippant approach is creepy. Would he have preached this sermon if Jesus had been physically present in the front row? He tries to justify the topic with a worldly argument, but how can he justify his approach? I'm appalled!

[turningpointchurch.com]

How grievous!!!

(And he's preaching this with young kids in the audience.)

Maybe Pastor Mike should team with sex therapist Dr. Ruth!

I just listened to about less than 5 minutes of the sex sermon and that just disgusts me!!!! Are you serious?? Is that even appropriate? No.. thats what their awaken love is for, but i'm sure he is just doing this so he will get more people to go to Awaken Love. Ridiculous if you ask me!!

Hello I am new to this forum and I would like to share my experiences while attended Turning Point. I will tell it in different parts though because I have a lot to say and to remember as well. I attended TPCC and TPCWOC starting in about the spring time of 2004. I was invited to Turning Point by two good friends of mine that I knew from high school. We ran into each other at a local Starbucks and they invited me to go to 180 which was the youth group that met on Wednesday nights. I had a great experience and the worship was good and I felt the word was presented in an appropriate way for our age group. I was glad to have found something that was so fun, with people who really seemed to be involved, and who loved God. I later started to go to the Sunday service and that was when we were meeting in the 8th street "old" building. I had another positive experience there with the people and the leaders. I felt welcome and I was on fire for God, it felt good to be part of a church family again. I then started attending all the events that I could, making many friends and doing the Friday night service Fan the Flame as well. It was nice to be able to have something more than just a Sunday service that I could attend and I loved the worship and the prayer time we spent on those Fridays.

To back up just a little and share about my life as a Christian a little bit I was raised in a Christian home with loving, caring parents and did not want for anything growing up. I was not spoiled just blessed with a loving family who was very supportive of me and who took great care of me. We went to a wonderful church when I was young and I have so many great memories of Sunday school and great programs that I was involved in as a child. We ended up leaving that church when our long time pastor was called to another church and we then attended other churches that I enjoyed too. I also attended Christian School and was taught much about God and the Bible there as well. Eventually we hooked into Smokey Point Community Church, which I enjoyed, led by Pastor John Stumbo who is a wonderful man and was a great preacher and pastor to us. I was involved in their youth group a bit there but it wasn't the greatest. I was going through those weird years as a teenager as well at the time but I have always loved music so I was heavily involved in that at my school. I actually started to attend the public middle school (7th and 8th grade) and high school (9th-12th grade) to get involved in the music programs they offered that my private school didn't offer so I decided to start attending for that reason alone. I am so grateful that my parents were so strongly involved in a church all my life, they taught me well and brought me face to face with God and I learned so much about my faith. Overall I grew up knowing the Lord and very familiar with the Bible and the Christian faith.

Anyway back to Turning Point, I then was very heavily involved in many, many things at TPCC which I probably won't even remember them all but here are the majority of them. I went to the Winter Camps, helped with many of the 180 events in the youth group, I helped with Summer Jubilee, I joined the worship team, and I also did discipleship, and took the classes that introduced me to the church and educated me on how things were done at TPCC. I became a member of the church and later was part of the Twenty Something's small group when that started and also became part of leadership with that group. I even joined SOMA and moved to a house with three other girls from the church who attended SOMA as well. I did not ever live in the SOMA dorms though. I was so involved that I had literally no other time to do anything else except work at my job which was all scheduled around these many events at TPCC. The more I got involved the more I strayed from my family members which for me always being so close to them, was a very weird thing that I didn't notice at the time. I felt the church pulling me in heavily and even experienced guilt when I couldn't attend events. It all was starting to change me and I didn't even realize it. I soon got my family to attend Turning Point with me and they enjoyed it but were not as into it as I was but were never negative about it- until later on when they felt it wasn't the right place for them. So, they still continued to attend Smokey Point Comm Church eventually.

But in that time of attending TPCC my parents experienced some pretty hard times in their marriage and let me tell you they received absolutely no support or help from the leaders or elders of the church. It was heartbreaking for my mom who so desperately needed some spiritual guidance and some hope from someone in the church to have received nothing - no returned phone calls from pastors to meet, and some very harsh words from Jeff Barnes about "not submitting to her husband" and that is how he explained their problems, in a nutshell. That was one of the most devastating moments of her life she told me and I was so shocked that he told her that I was speechless. From that moment on I started to feel differently about TPCC as a whole. That is just the short version of the depressing and whacked out conversations my mom experienced while being hopeless and separated from my father and I will never forget how disgusting I felt to be part of a church that acted that way and I was saddened that my mom had that happen to her.

I can tell you the exact moment that everything changed at Turning Point and it scares me to have been so sure at the time and I am ashamed to say I did nothing but suppress my feelings and feel guilty. Those feelings actually weren't feelings they were promptings from the Holy Spirit. Saying to me to be careful and to stay aware of what was really going on in the church.

More to come . . .

Wow!!!!
Now I am waiting with great expectancy. Talk about being left on the edge.

I am sorry about what has happened and hope to hear the rest of your story. Thank you for sharing.

Dear Learning Point,

In response to your request.

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M&M
TPR asked me to write why my wife and I left Turning Point....
...It has been 2 and a half years since we left. It was very tough emotionally especially since our sons stayed. I wrote out some criteria to evaluate objectively what I expected would happen if Mike was leading the church in an authoritarian direction and what did happen.

Let me know if anyone would like me to write that.


M&M, I was going back through this thread, and I was wondering if you'd still be willing to write about this. Would you?

Unfortunately I think I overstated the scope of what I had written. Below is the actual article I had submitted to Christianity Today. It didn't get accepted. But I tried to summarize my experiences and lessons from 3 different churches. The only clear predictive thing was this.

3. If you sense that a spiritual leader is heading to godhood. Pray and wait. Power is like a narcotic, the addiction will only increase and it will become obvious.



When Pastors Become Gods

It was the week before Christmas. The young college student was in the UPS truck packed with packages that they were trying to unload in the mad dash to Christmas. John normally just worked nights but with school out and the volume at its peak he was riding along with the driver racing packages up to houses to increase output. The driver was in the middle of an impassioned monologue about the spectacular houses in this exclusive neighborhood. He spoke in wonder and maybe covetousness at how opulent they were. It is usually a fun week for everyone. John enjoyed the physical exercise after weeks of non-stop study and the drivers enjoyed the company and a little less strain. But as the truck driver spoke in amazement John started to feel uncomfortable. The feeling grew with greater intensity as they pulled up to one of the huge houses. As he ran up to drop off the package a sense of embarrassment enveloped him. The house was his pastors. He knew he couldn’t tell the driver. It would only reinforce every negative stereo type of why pastors are in the ministry.

Less then a year before the pastor had earnestly challenged his congregation of about 800 people to give sacrificially. At one point he exclaimed”Don’t buy crown molding for your house give the money to the building fund!” Yet somehow he was living here. How does this happen? How do pastors do irrational things? How do pastors transform themselves from servants into gods?

I am a letter carrier for the post office. I do not claim to be an expert but I have observed a pattern over the last 34 years of being a Christian. There are three men I have known who have gone through or are going this process as I write. My hope is that someone of greater expertise will study this and develop a clearer profile.

There are several characteristics that these people hold in common.

1. A genuine love for God. I was part of a church that ultimately fell into disgrace and on the front page of newspapers across the state in the 1980. The pastor was and still is one of the most loving and godly men I have met.

2. A genuine gift at speaking. They can read a phone book and make it sound interesting;.

3. An ability to draw people to them. People gain a sense of worth by doing something for them. People will hunger to do something whether for the church or for him or her personally that involves enormous sacrifice just to get the affirmation of the leader. The doing of a good deed to a widow or someone genuinely needy does not bring a tenth of the sense of fulfillment as it does when it is done for the leader or he hears about it.

4. Tremendous drive and leadership ability that by definition is intensely focused and almost myopic. This, of course, describes every successful football coach or business person. Because the mission is eternal and involves ultimate issues this leads to an intense level of pride and belief that this church is uniquely doing God’s will.

5. No genuine peer relationships. Of the three I’ve known personally they all left denominations or were never part of any. But it isn’t just that. All three developed a persona that required others to address them as the authority. Even recreational or social gatherings are generally done with those who are subordinates.

6. Much like the White House an intense competition develops within the subordinates to gain access and power. The tendency is to start to dress the approved way, use the same lingo, but the key is to victory is to out perform. One assistant pastor organized a project to get a $6000 deck put in the pastor’s backyard. Inevitably in the progression toward godhood the pastor is surrounded by those who see as their personal mission to affirm his wishes. This also carries over to the spouse. Pleasing the spouse is a key to gaining access power and affirmation.

7. Though there is no authority over the pastor he emphasizes the importance of authority. Those who leave the church or question are considered out from authority.

8. All of this leads to an insular culture. The leader fosters this but then becomes trapped by it. He will make demands of people or their children that if he were in their shoes he would never go along with.

9. Ultimately the leader defines scripture; the scripture doesn’t define him, because there is such an intense environment of conformity. The leader, like all of us, is tempted to select or twist scripture to fit his desires. But the difference is there is no one there to challenge him and say you are taking that out of context, that isn’t sound interpretation The Bible is what the leader says it is. .

10. Ultimately this leads to behavior that within the enclosed cultural bubble seems normal but to outsiders seems bizarre or cult like. The pastor lives a more and more opulent life style. In one case he wore diamond rings, and was given a Cadillac. In another he proudly wore a Rolex watch. In yet another case the pastor’s wife started a business as a spin off of a church promotion. There is no sense that they are accruing to themselves privileges that to the uninitiated look like an abuse of power. Because the subordinates also gain from this they are unlikely to say anything.

10. The leader then has a tendency to see his lifestyle as a sign of God’s blessing. In an amazing turning of scripture on its head the pastor sees living a materialistic life not as sin but as part of his obligation to be an example to the flock. He will also see any criticism as a sign of persecution or unbelief.

11. The pastor becomes god because he believes he hears from God. All three churches I have been part of like this were Charismatic. In theory everyone can hear from God. But when the leader hears from God there can be no questioning. If God tells him to buy a giant house just after he called for great sacrifice he HAS to obey God doesn’t he?

12. Ultimately as the leader ascends to full godhood there develops a role reversal. In all four gospels there are recorded unique events where the disciples are seeking power or greatness and Jesus counters by saying they must be servants. Though the pastor started as a humble servant without even realizing it he at every turn is the served.

How can a pastor prevent this? The reality is that it is only one in 500 pastors who have the unique gifting that makes this an issue. The further challenge is that the very virtue that leads to success is also the vice. The final challenge is that there has usually been an event in their childhood that has led to an extreme desire for control and a distrust of authentic peer relations. The obvious solutions are also the least likely for this person to seek.

1. Acknowledgement that the hunger for power is in everyone including me.

2. Admit that the lust for power is as Chuck Colson said: “Virtually impossible to detect in ourselves”.

3. Submit to a group of men who are genuine peers. The ideal would be a business man who has the same kind of success and ego and is not within the spell of the church. Just like alcoholics can spot the lies of fellow alcoholics the coach or businessman can see right through the pastors “god talk” and say B____ S_____! You’re fooling yourself.

4. Work through trust and control issues. Rick Warren on Family Life Today mentioned that he spent almost half his income in his early ministry on getting counseling but that it was one of the best investments he made. “How can we minister to others if we are not whole?”

If you are in a congregation and you see this pattern emerging what can you do? It is tempting to give pat answers. This can be an excruciating process. As a young Christian I went through this. The challenge is that it is hard to leave a healthy church because there are genuine bonds of Christian love. It is much harder to leave a dysfunctional church because you are becoming enmeshed. To leave will hurt. Here are some basic thoughts to evaluate your relationship to your church.

1. Be honest. When I was a young man I became part of a church that was unhealthy. I felt uncomfortable immediately, but I suppressed those feelings and they gradually went away. If an alarm is going off in your heart confront it. Why is this? Is it valid?

2. You are not only allowed to judge you are obligated to judge “words from God.” I Corinthians 14:29. We cannot relinquish our personal responsibility to others.

3. If you sense that a spiritual leader is heading to godhood. Pray and wait. Power is like a narcotic, the addiction will only increase and it will become obvious.

4. We must guard our own hearts; many of us have our own issues with authority and power. No church or pastor is perfect. Is there something in me that hungers for affirmation that only God can give?

5. Watch the assistants. Typically in a dysfunctional church the assistants will mimic the vices of the pastor but not have the gifts.

6. With much prayer seek to meet and communicate concerns with pastor. A healthy pastor will welcome input. Most of us respect pastors and it is very intimidating to speak to them about concerns. On one hand we must be humble, on the other if there is use of intimidation or shame those are clear signs that the your sense of concern is justified.

7. If there is no resolution leave with grace. This can be painful, gut wrenching. I sought a meeting with the pastor the last time this happened. He finished the meeting say that if I go to another church all I’ll get is “religion” and then concluded by saying: “You are in a dangerous place and I fear for you.” It was a hard experience; we invested hundreds of hours at the church and invested thousands of dollars.

8. Take your time but find another church. Way back in 1981 when my wife and I went through this experience. The first church we visited we came late sat in the back nearest the exit and left early. If you have been part of a highly authoritarian church where there has been tremendous commitment demanded to the point of neglecting your home but also an intoxicating feeling of belonging to a cause, attending a normal healthy church may seem lifeless. It takes time.

9. Forgive and grieve. My wife and I have 3 grown sons who are still part of a church that fits the description above. We are concerned. It has been hard for all of us. If we become bitter we will only confirm the view that we are in sin. If we badger them we will only be doing that which we are against. We must speak the truth in love.

Is there a gag order being placed on the departing pastors, elders and staff from RLc?
As the many pastors and elders have resigned and left Radiant Life hear in Sacramento we have not heard publicly from from these individuals like pastor Brandon Miller yet he is willing to talk to people with questions. On the other hand Tony has used every opertunity to slander and demonize any one who would disagree or depart his little cult. The churches that were once RL church plants that have cut ties with RLc & Tony. Tony has quickly given a negative spin on that leader and group of people..
So what is Mike doing now that people are coming to there sinces and they have realized that there church has been hijacked and the people do not have the authority to remove the mongrals.

Thanks, M&M. That's a helpful overview and description of characteristics and progressions to look for, as well as good insight and advice from your own experiences. Thanks for making that available to all of us! I appreciate you.

I listened to the sermon about sex and I didn't think it was that bad. Maybe it is my generation or age or how I was raised but I didn't think it was inapropriate. I guess that I don't really like Pastor Mike's approach and some of his comments were kinda ridiculous but I do think talking about sex is important in the church for married couples only though and I can see some people thinking that it is kinda crude to do it in a normal sunday service with kids and single people. I do agree with him about sex being something great to have in a marriage that was created by God for us to enjoy but like it says in Proverbs 3 there is a time for everything. I have no problem with the idea of sex being important and talked about, personally, but the audience needs to be kept in mind. Overall I think the Awaken Love Marriage conference would have been a more appropriate place for this sermon but I didn't see it as horrible or disgusting. Pastor Mike just needs to be a little more practice with delivery and timing.

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giftofsong
I listened to the sermon about sex and I didn't think it was that bad. Maybe it is my generation or age or how I was raised but I didn't think it was inapropriate. I guess that I don't really like Pastor Mike's approach and some of his comments were kinda ridiculous but I do think talking about sex is important in the church for married couples only though and I can see some people thinking that it is kinda crude to do it in a normal sunday service with kids and single people. I do agree with him about sex being something great to have in a marriage that was created by God for us to enjoy but like it says in Proverbs 3 there is a time for everything. I have no problem with the idea of sex being important and talked about, personally, but the audience needs to be kept in mind. Overall I think the Awaken Love Marriage conference would have been a more appropriate place for this sermon but I didn't see it as horrible or disgusting. Pastor Mike just needs to be a little more practice with delivery and timing.

Hey again, giftofsong. It's always good to get different perspectives on stuff, so it's cool that you gave yours on this one. Thanks.

I know my reaction was strong about the sermon, but not because I disagree with you about sex being a great gift or that it needs to be talked about in the appropriate way and context. I'm not squeamish about the topic itself, and there was some good information and perspective in that message, but overall, it seemed inappropriate to me. Some of the content seemed goofy, but mostly it was Mike's revved up approach that just made him seem out of control or something. ("Creepy" was the word I used because I think if we saw anyone else we know talk or act like that, we'd be creeped out. What if your dad was all ramped up like that talking to a congregation about sex, telling them to tell their spouse this and that. Maybe it is generational. maybe it's another lost level of modesty in the culture. I dunno.) I mean, think if you were a newcomer and your 9- and 12-year-old boys were with you. You get a disclaimer at the beginning of the service, maybe, but you've never had a pastor be really explicit in a worship service about sexual experience, so you don't worry too much about it. Then, the service begins. Yikes!

Anyway, like I said other perspectives are helpful to help see all sides of something, and I'm not trying to make you see things the same way I see them. I thought maybe I should clarify my position a little better, since it was more a reaction than an explanation.

Hope to hear more from you soon!