hi, im new so, yall dont have to take my opnion for anything other than some guy out theres opnion, and that doesnt matter that much, but i found this site and couldnt help but be distracted by the topic of disscussion and i was very interested and decided to register to post my thoughts. and here they are.


Whenever speaking of religious groups, one must realize that one church can be completely different from another even though they maybe within the same thought, and/or organization. No one "church"(referring to one congregation) is the same. Not all catholic priests are child molestors, not all Sunday School teachers are gay, sometimes, one instance can cause us to go off the deep end in our opinion of a certian group or even a culture. look at the middle east, people may say, well, since they are iraqi or saudi then they must be a terrorist, well, that is not the case with the majority. I also find this with most religious groups. Though some may have involvement in hideous things that would make superman hurl, we must take a step back and look at the entire picture as a whole. Unless you know the entire organization, cult, whatever is like your example, then the example comes of none effect simply because it is an isolated incident. I am only promoting tolerance, not condoning people's actions.


Also, in regard to a certain group's belief system, you also must take into account their point of view. Why do they believe what they do, yes, there are murderers, and theifs, and liers, but that doesnt mean all are. Before condemning and writing off all religion or belief systems, or even so called "fringe" groups as cults, realize their opinion as well as your own.

I have tried to be respectful to this forum environment and i hope this can result in some constructive conversation.

First of all, thank you CoffeeCup for your insightful and thoughful reply that you posted to this forum topic. I'm not sure what OhMyGosh was going with the article that he posted regarding the child molestation case, but I believe that you addressed it with much grace.

CoffeeCup had a good point when he stated that not every church is alike. I can personally testify that I've attended many UPCI churches and there have been many that I would not become a member, because I don't feel that personal standards should be made a heaven or hell issue.

I go to what many would see as a large liberal church in Houston, TX., and our leadership doesn't get behind the pulpit and preach for or against personal standards. There are many in our congregation who cut their hair, where slackes, jewerly, ect...Just as there are many who don't cut their hair, where slackes, jewerly, ect...They are not looked down upon, but on the contrary, they are embraced and loved as anyone else in the congregation.

We should always treat and love everyone as Jesus would (Matt 22:39). I don't want to offend anyone with my personal standards and have to answer to God one day.

We are too close to the end to squabble over issues such as hair when there is a lost and dying world that needs to hear the message of God's love.

I went to the movies the other day and saw Hitch. Great movie.

I went home earlier today and flipped on the television and watch Cop's during my lunch hour. I love that show!!!

My wife and I went to dinner on Saturday, where she wore a fitted top, and a nice skirt that accented her features.

I sat in my bedroom fully dressed for 45 min. while my wife applied make up (which I dont think she needs much of), to make herself feel more secure about her appearence.

I paid $125 to Sandras Salon for my wife to have her hair trimmed, relaxed, and styled.

I went to the UPC church I minister at last night and taught bible study on living a life of excellence. (Which I heard Joel Osteen preach a few weeks ago on TV)

I'm a normal guy, with a normal wife, living a normal life. When it comes to the standards of my life, and the lives of the people I minister to, it all depends on the person.

Now please dont get me wrong. I believe in modesty, I beleive in humility, but I dont beleive in walking out of the house and looking like you fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

Some UPC pastors do believe that way. But if they want to whats the big deal??? I dont condemn them? Why shoul you.

You see it would be ignorant to think that my church would meet the needs for everyone in the world. Just as it would be ignorant for you to beleive that.

Leaving doctrine aside, every one needs to find a church that they feel comfortable in. Some place they enjoy going. I could break into the "Cheers" theme song right now, but I will spare you.

Why cant personal prefernce be ok??? I prefer going to a UPC church but not any UPC church. Just the onies that allow me to be the way I want to be.

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Sounds like you are on your way out of the UPCI.

Maybe you should share your views with UPCI ministers and leaders within that denomination.

Most would not agree with you.

See [www.culteducation.com]

UPCI Pastor Robert Sabin resigned over an "oath," which included the so-called "holiness standards" regarding dress, hair etc.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Are you saying the UPCI has reversed its position concerning the oath and the specifics mandated within it?

Have they officially published and distributed a written version of such an undertanding, as they did the oath Sabin discusses?

WOW!!! What a great turn time in a response.

Well, I can deffinatly see your point, but it is hard to paint an entire picture for you, to help you understand my point.

But let me try to help.

The UPCI is making dramatic turns in which we can more effectivly reach more people through evangelism, and not single people out due to small pettiness such as TV, Hair length, and skirts.

For example, this year at General Convention, I am predicting that a new bilaw will be enacing allowing TV into the homes of our members.

While this may not be a big step for most Christian organizations, it's a huge one for the UPC, considering there have been organizational splits due to TV.

5 - 10 years ago, the music young people were allowed to listen to was very controled. I have heard men and women preach to poor teens about "Demonic" music that include annointed men of God including, Micheal W Smith and the like. Today more and more churchs are turning to men such as Micheal W Smith for their Sunday Morning Worship music.

Now I must also say this. UNtil approx. 4-5 years ago an annointed man by the name of Nathanial Urshan, was the General Superintendent of the UPCI. He did a great job, and with fear of lightening I say, he help the organization back. Not intentionally, but none the less he did.

Since then my former pastor and Mentor, Bishop Kenneth Haney, former pastor of Christian Life Center, in Stockton CA, was nominated as General Sup. Since then the organization has begun a turn for the better.

Bishop Haney is people oriented. The fact is, his church is the largest in the organization. Why, because he knows how to treat people. He has learned that whats important is that people make to heaven.

I understand that you can only make judgments based on what has happened in the past, but please be gentle. Within the next 5-10 years the UPCI will be a completely different organization. Just as Business organization make changes in infastructure, personell, values and vision, so do organizations.

I can assure you if I do leave the UPC for some reason, it will not be because of standards but rather because od has called me somewhere else.

Groups constantly say, "We have changed."

But essentially what you have just said is "We may officially change."

However, nothing official has been done yet.

What about the following:

Congreagations democratically electing church boards from amongst the general membership--one member, one vote.

Pastors then can be fired by democratically elected church boards.

Financial transparency.

That is, independently audited annual financial statements that disclose in detail all monies spent by a church. This would include any and all compensation paid to a pastor and/or his family (salary, expenses and benefits).

The same transparency for the denominational headquartes and its staff.

And will the UPCI after its changes fellowship with other churches, such as those within the Assemblies of God (AOG)? The AOG is the largest Pentecostal denomination with millions of members.

There is a problem with generalzation.

This is why:
"So Father Smith, how long you been a catholic Priest?..."Really!!! "How many boys have you molested???"

"So Habib Mohamed, where do you hide your arsenic? And how do you build a effective car bomb?"

"John White, whens the last time you hung a black man?"

"Where you from Scott? Oh youre from San Francisco? Whats your Boyfriends name?"

Generalzations, are empty.

I have been on 2 church boards. I was elected by the church. I have fired a Pastor, as well as helped the election of a different one. During my tenure on staff, my salary and benefits were disclosed to the church twice a year in Church business meetings.

I must be the only UPC church member to have been involved in a board who acts this way. Surely I am the only one!!!

But that would be a generalzation now wouldnt it???

In the following article you will read about the want to, of many UPC preachers who are wanting to make strides in the way we have treated other Christians, and organizations since 1916.

[www.culteducation.com]

I know most of the men mentioned in this article personally. I can atttest for their honesty, and their want to see a change in the UPCI.

You too will soon see that change.

Hopefully you are right and it is possible for the UPCI to experience meaningful change, but I remain deeply skeptical.

It seems unlikely that UPCI pastors, who essentially function like dictators over their congregations with no meaningful accountability to lay church members, would be willing to give up their power.

These issues are not addressed within the article you linked.

Most of the complaints I receive are not about the legalism of the UPCI regading such things as hair and dress, but rather about the abuse of power by controlling pastors who lack any meaningful accountability.

You mention a "church board" you sat on.

What kind of church board would that be specifically?

Was it composed of pastors, and elders selected by pastors, or was it the type of church board that I previously posted about elected by the general lay members of an individual congregation?

The board previously outlined would be one elected by the general membership of an individual congregation. Again, this means each lay member would cast one vote. And that elected board could then fire a pastor.

Such a board would also stand for reelection and serve a set term.

Also, please understand that financial transparency, does not mean a discussion at a church business meeting with a pastor.

As previously outlined, such transparency would typically involve an annual independently audited and published financial statement that details the entire church budget, including any and all compensation paid to the pastor and his family. This statement would then be distributed and/or readily available to all members of the congregation and of course be reviewed and approved by the democratically elected church board.

BTW--such democratically elected church boards composed of lay members are also typically in control of all the congregation's finances, they would approve all salaries and/or any spending contained within the annual budget.

The same transparency and democratic oversight should apply to the UPCI central denomination headquarters staff, budget, salaries and expenses, and the budget details should be distributed to all individual congregational boards.

These are not generalizations, but rather very specific and detailed means used by most Protestant churhces to prevent an abuse of power by clergy.

And these are the type of meaningful structural and organizational changes that should be mandated permanently through church and denominational constitutions.

Nothing like this has ever been done within any UPCI church that I am aware of, though discipline may be done by the UPCI "brotherhood," which is composed of its pastors.

And though some disclosure may be done by a pastor to typically his chosen members at church meetings, no UPCI church congregation has ever published an annual independently audited financial statement that I am aware of.

I agree with you that there is a problem with "generalization," this often occurs when things are not spelled out, detailed and specific.

That is why such meaningful organizational changes should be mandated very specifically through church and denominational consitutions, which would then really change the UPCI.

Of course this would be up to the UPCI and its members.

But it is this kind of meaningful strutural change regarding checks and balances to pastoral power that would provide compelling objective evidence of real change, as opposed to vague "generalization."

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It seems unlikely that UPCI pastors, who essentially function like dictators over their congregations with no meaningful accountability to lay church members, would be willing to give up their power....Most of the complaints I receive are not about the legalism of the UPCI regading such things as hair and dress, but rather about the abuse of power by controlling pastors who lack any meaningful accountability.

You hit the nail on the head. I finally got out of the UPC two years ago after 27 years and that was the driving reason I left. It didn't matter where we went or who we knew, there was always constant turmoil and 99.9% was caused by the pastors of these churches. That is the number one problem in the UPC and I have serious doubts they can ever change. Power is addicting, absolute power even more so, and they will not give that up. I came to the conclusion that their structure of ministry is non-biblical and that is why it repeats its pattern of abuse almost every time and is destined to fail. I never saw a true church board, all were handpicked yes men nominated by the pastor and then ratified by the saints. Of course, it would have been spiritual rebellion to vote against anyone he nominated.

Shortly after I left, I wrote the following:


Imagine if you will, you have just gotten a new job. You may have had absolutely no experience in this field, perhaps not even a college education; yet you are under no real supervision. Remarkably, you start at the top--you’re the boss! The people who work for you almost never require you to pay them. On the contrary, they pay you out of their own back pocket! You are not given a set salary but you are able to claim 10% of your employees finances as your own. This money is yours completely and you don’t have to put it back into your business if you choose not to. While this may be difficult when starting out, if you grow to have only 40 workers at your company making $30,000 that’s $120,000 a year. You can also request that aside from this 10% you will receive a housing allowance to make your house payment. Expenses for your office building like heat, mortgage, and electricity are not paid from your 10%--these are extra costs paid for by your workers.

Despite your inexperience, you are rarely if ever questioned about your decisions. If a worker does have concerns about your job performance or how he’s being treated, you can cast doubts about his attitude or character or simply ask him to leave (of course you will give a negative report to his next employer that they have a problem with authority). If they want to complain to someone else about your job performance, they have that right. They can bring their complaint to a group of your close and often time passive friends whom you carefully handpicked as your board.

Sound farfetched? This may seem like a fantasy but this is how many UPC churches operate. Imagine how seductive a setup like this would be even for a very moral and humble person. It would be difficult for anyone to continually resist the temptation of setting up his own personal kingdom and then rule as king in a situation such as this. Throw into the mix a philosophy that encourages its leaders to think of themselves as having a special ability to hear from God (more than the average layman) and you have a recipe ripe for abuse. Who in their right mind would put someone in this position?

I belonged to the United Pentecostal Church for many years. It provided me with a lot of good things and helped me find direction in my life. Sadly, I have come to the realization that there is something thriving within the organization that has easily damaged more churches and lives than anything I have ever witnessed or heard preached against. If it were drugs or alcohol it would be easy to recognize and consequently deal with. I believe that without repentance from this area, the church will face serious complications in the future.

For years I had been around this problem, watched as people suffered from its actions and consequences, yet never totally recognized what it was because it hid behind “religion” so well. It is only recently that I was able to see it clearly for what it was and then understand why this repeated pattern of abuse of the laity repeats itself so often in so many UPC churches. Most of the turmoil and strife I witnessed emerges from a severe lack of accountability within the ministry. This atmosphere causes men to be tempted to attain complete control and power over others and many times ending up dominating and bullying congregations. They begin to substitute or add on to God’s word in order to control others as they imagine God would. It is fertile soil for abuse. What conditions produce such an atmosphere, turning what I believe are originally good intentioned and sincere people entering the ministry into ones that must control everything, many times at all costs?

The structure that the UPC organization is built on is seriously flawed. New Testament scripture shows that a person in the ministry should take on the approach and disposition of a servant. Jesus was the prime example of this.

If you are a current UPC member you might say that your pastor would never surrender to the temptation of creating a church based around them. That may be true, there are ministers capable of not succumbing to this attitude. But it also may be that you have never openly disagreed with him. I know an individual who attended a church where they boasted that their pastor didn’t have this “power trip” problem. Things went smoothly for a few years until the minister finally made a decision that some in the church couldn’t go along with. For the first time they gently explained to him of their disagreement and how they couldn't support it. He seemed to take it all right at first. But as weeks went by, he began to simmer about it. Soon he began referring to it over the pulpit, and eventually he openly started preaching that those who had disagreed with him had gone against God. It got so ugly that those who had disagreed with him had to leave this church.

The UPC ministry in its current form is unaccountable, unbiblical and many times destructive. It is a potentially dangerous place for Christians and I can no longer recommend it as an acceptable place for those who are searching for Christ to attend.