Hi there,

Yes, I'm a member but the membership course was rushed through. This was because at the time the church was a church plant and most of the people there had come from other New Frontiers churches in the UK, there was only a few of us that were new to NF, there was about 30 of us that went through the course together. Now the membership course is done with individuals or couples, if I'd have done the course in this way I doubt that I would have joined.

A lot of churches say that they believe in tithing but don't try enforcing it, it was not made clear that I would have too tithe. I do believe in giving but I believe tithing is an OT principle. Also, the fact that the accounts are not disclosed is odd, as other churches I know are very open about their accounting. I have tried to see the accounts on the charity commission website and I am unable to find our church accounts, I could find other churches in our area but not the NF church. I had problems finding the accounts of other NF churches too; this is because they have trusts with different names. If you don't know that name of the trust it's very difficult to find them on the charity commission’s website, yet I have typed in the name of other churches in my area and I have no problem in looking at their accounts. NF may not be doing anything wrong but why not be open like other churches; it looks like they have something to hide even if they don't.

The accounts that I was able to see were a real eye opener, NF generally has twice the income of other churches that I looked at, and they seem to have an income of between 1.5-2 million a year. They pay their leaders on average 42-60k and one leader that I saw even had 10k paid into his pension that year. I don't have a problem with leaders being paid a fair wage but I earn 17k a year and have had pressure put I me to give more to these already rich people leaders and their very wealthy church.

I have also noticed too that NF never give any money to outside originations, the money always supports other NF churches or projects. We went to the Shuttleworth Churches Together event last year and there was a big push on giving there too.

As my wife has no desire to be a leader I was not going to get hang up about this one, even though I personally don't have a problem with woman leaders myself. There are some very gifted and anointed ladies in our church that would make good leaders; it does seem a shame not to use them.

Dear Gavtaz, everything you say is in line with my own experience. The accounts of NF are far from transparent and the senior leadership are directors of other trusts all of which takes considerable exploration etc. Another financial ploy is to make their full time pastors "self-employed" meaning they pay less NI and the pastors then claim their home against tax, pay spouse tax free allowance etc etc. This organisation is financially suspect at best. As you say if nothing to hide then why not open up the books and be completely open about their dealings. What i do know is the central church has quite a few millions floating around.

The point about female leadership is different but their does seem to be a link between churches and other religious orgs that have male only leadership. There just seems to be more financial irregularity in this situation. It was interesting that Pyjamas6 and I have no idea why that person is anonymous admits to their own concern over the clarity of their own finances. Remember as a trustee they have significant legal responsibility.

Did you manage to link into the articles about tithing. So many points against. The whole "giving" process in OT and NT was so different to concept of 10% of gross or even net income of today. Once again the religious fideists - the new Pharisees, use their own interrpretation and guess who benefits. Of course all orgs need to raise money to survive. Set a membership fee, open and transparent, raise more funds by seeking donations from those better off and do fund raising church activities. All very open. I wonder how the tithing works for leaders.. does salary include their tithe or not. 10% may of course be deducted at source which should of course attract income tax - who knows there is no admission to how this applies. Again may be nothing wrong at all but ----

I wish you and your wife well, hopefully away from this organisation. There really are some wonderful churches out there,who believe in the absolute NT principles of love. Remember you are not the problem. The problem is if this institution does not love you.

Quote
rrmoderator
You did not respond directly to the issue of an annually published budget distributed to all contributors, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses spent from ministry funds. Is there such an annual budget statement sent out by New Frontiers or any of the local churches?

I have before me a document entitled "An Overview of your Giving" and a statement that the audited financial statement will be available from July 2010 on the site Rob quotes.

Pyjamas6:

And it discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses spent from ministry funds?

Please list the salaries and compensation provided to each staff member.

Can you provide a link to where this is posted?

Or can you post a copy of this here?

£3367,000 on support (i.e. including salaries and communications) out of total expenditure of £3,762,000. I have no more information on these points. It's not a link, it is a document made available to all donors, as requested in your previous post.

One of the over riding qualities I have found in many of the contacts with NF leadership is their extra ordinary arrogance. You asked a rhetorical question. I give a basic response and you return with arrogance.

A letter in the Times of London this week pointed out that the arguement suggesting that as Jesus had no female apostles this meant women were not destined for pastoral leadership etc this was all well and good but this does not explain why we have Black or Asian leaders who were also not represented!!

Others point out Mary Magdelene had a fundamental role in early ministry and that it was Popes years later who diminished her role and then tried to discredit. Thecla as far as we know travelled with Paul and gave ministry but again all reference to her was expunged in order to prop up the male domination of early church.

Most would agree that the role of the woman in the Middle east is compromised by lack of opportunity and education. we can only imagine what it was like at he time of Jesus. I just think it is a great pity that some supporters of Western religion choose to diminish women.

Also worth considering Ephesians where it clearly states how slaves and masters should work. Do you in NF believe we shoiuld still have slaves. I can find no reference in NT to "You shall not have slaves" very much the opposite.

All I can add is that there are a lot of people out there who have been horribly challenged by NF and its leaders for not quite being sufficiently blue eyed and blonde haired. Why is this? Why was Gavtaz and the others who have very bravely come forward to give their stories had this experience. Why did they have to find this web site to get answers and some support. Surely these are all signs of a problem within the institution. The answer is easy 1) Transparent practise 2) accountability as I have described in earlier answers 3)A regulatory authority to oversee those odd personalities who find their way wrongly into leadership. Good leaders and elders have nothing to fear, I suspect their membership will grow.

One thing I know almost for certain is you will continue with your prejudice against women and your knowledge that you are absolutely right. The catholic church will continue knowing it is right even though I am aware a number of NF churches who do not regard Catholics as Christian. JW's , Scientologists, Orthodox Jews and fundamental Moslems will know that they are absolutely right. Whilst we have this kind of fideism there really is little hope for the world - and what is really strange we are all talking about the same God.

If you really believe in NF then ask the leadership what they truly think about what i have said about openess and accountability. will you get the "knock on the door" and a "visit"?

Pyjamas6:

No much disclosure.

Just the gross budget.

What outside accounting firm provided an independently done audit?

Sorry, RR, I don't have any more information on this.

Pyjamas6:

That's it?

Then it seems like very limited disclosure without an outside check through an independently done audit.