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bozman
In theory, that is the case. However, ACIM people often do everything they can to stack the deck in their favor -- including working to get rid of ministers who don't want ACIM taught in the church. They have also gone to great lengths to keep church members ignorant of the many controversies surrounding ACIM, such as the Endeavor Academy cult (and attendant suicides), the copyright battles, etc.

First of all, in all my years in New Thought I never heard of Endeavor Academy, and I have studied ACIM along the way. (There are some quotes from it that have become permanent parts of my "favorite quotes" file. In fact, my wife and I put a quote from the Course (changed from singular to plural) on the front of our wedding invitations: "Love, which created us, is what we are.")

If people have sommitted suicide, that is terrible, but how is it the fault of ACIM, the Miracle Distribution Center, or anyone else at ACIM?

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My information comes from 16 years in Unity, in several different communities. I served in several capacaties in those churches, including Sunday guest speaker, class teacher (adults as well as youth) and workshop facilitator.

Beyond that, for many years I had a YahooGroups list called Unity In Crisis, in which such issues were discussed. It is important to realize that the administrators of Unity actively discourage open discussion of these issues. That is why they shut down their own Internet forum six years ago.

And there are planty of places for these things to be discussed. Most movements don't encouraage discussion of their problems. Not to sound like I'm beating up on the Catholics but they actively discouraged discussion of the priest child-abuse scandal, apparently to the point of paying off some kids. (The Catholic Church and Michael Jackson? What a combination.)

Many ACIM groups are in Unity and other New Thought churches (as the Miracle Distribution Center's website reveals), but many churches do not promote, or in some cases, even tolerate the Course.

I know that in Unity's sister teaching, Religious Science, there was quite a discussion a few years back when the then-President of Religious Science International, Dr. Kennedy Schultz, barred ACIM.

The fact is that if you read New Thought literature and read [i:8c34b9fca5]A Course in Miracles[/i:8c34b9fca5], you'll find that many of the ideas are simply the same idea in different language.

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The main hole is that true discernment is not possible when anything and everything is allowed.

It's called being open. Information is presented and you can take it or leave it as you choose. The beauty is that you are not required to believe anything.

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It is unfair to members of any church group not to warn them that certain "teachers" such as Twyman are hucksters or worse, that certain teachings such as ACIM are nothing more than thought reform through self-guided trance.

Trance? I have read [i:8c34b9fca5]A Course in Miracles[/i:8c34b9fca5] rather thoroughly (all 3 books, including the Teachers' Manual) and I find no evidence of trance there? It's simply teaching about forgiveness and extending love to everyone. Recall the most famous quote from ACIM: "Teach only love, for that is what you are."

As for Twyman, I have never gone to one of his events nor have I read his stuff, except for brief quotees that someone has shared in email, on a board, or in a reading, so I don't know much about him. But if he is making money doing what he is doing, what is wrong with that? I do know that there are many people in New Thought who find he resonates with them and many who don't like him. And either is OK. There is no pressure one way or another.

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Even if they do take note of problems with a particular teacher or path, it is done in a tepid and ineffectual way. An example is the cautionary message sent out a couple of years ago concerning books in Unity bookshops and libraries -- such as Wayne Dyers -- which advocate the accused pedophile guru Sathya Sai Baba. The books were never the real problem. The real problem was, and is, that there are many Unity centers where there are active SSB groups meeting in the church on a regular basis, and that this is often presented as a part of Unity's offerings and not just as a group renting space.

In what way is this presented as part of their philosophy? I know of one RS center that has a yoga teacher who is also a Practitioner-in-Training. She puts up announcements for her yoga classes. They are occasionally in the bulletin. No one says that they are part of Religious Science, just that they are occurring at the Center.

I have heard Dyer and read some of his stuff and have not seen him advocating Sai Baba, so you'd have to gie me a specific reference. But while Sai Baba is likely an unsavory character, accusation is not proof, and some of Sai Baba's ideas are good ones and very much in tune with New Thought, as are Dyer's. (I did hear Dyer refer to Thomas Troward, FWIW. Not that many people know Troward.)

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Yet it is taboo to openly criticize the actual offerings of any Unity church. That makes you a "bad seed planter", a person exhibiting "disruptive energy", etc. Those are just a couple of the terms that are used to marginalize those who express any form of disagreement with the policies or actions of any minister in Unity. There are many, many more.

You've said this before and I don't doubt that this happened in your experience from some folks. That's unfortunate, and clearly these folks don't really understand the philosophy. However, I have dealt with -- and deal with -- many Unity people and have never heard any terminology of this kind. However, it is always noted that you experience the belessings of the Kingdom in proportion to your expectation and if your expectation is negative, then your experience will be negative.

Spreadiong negativity around is not welcome in any organization, but principled criticism of anyone, provided it stays on principle and does not devolve into a personal showdown or into gossip, is always a good thing.

They may not implement what you suggest, but it helps to make the organization stronger.

Timmer:

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tar Unity with the "cult" label.

Please understand that there is not even a Unity Church section within the Ross Institute database.

But there is a very large database section regarding Clergy Abuse, which for the most part contains articles about Catholic priests, related arrests and litigation.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Sai Baba has a section though.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This guru has seen better days and is now scandal-ridden as a purported pedophile and sexual predator.

See also [www.exbaba.nl]

Unity is so decentralized, that many of the problems are LOCAL. Like the local Unity Church where the Minister was having sex with many women. Because he stacked the board, they could not get rid of him.

The Catholics were much worse, so don't get me started on those guys.

But the larger Unity organization is not much better.
Where are the FACTS to support their outrageous claims?
There are ZERO facts, just stories and anecdotes. Same stuff, different pile.

The Unity "theories" of the God-Man make a very ripe audience for scammers like Sai Baba. The guy has been shown to be a fraud, and he does NOT have Avatar Superhuman Christ Powers.
(I even have a video where Sai Baba is shown to "calm an elephant", You can SEE THE ELEPHANT TRAINER BEHIND THE ELEPHANTS LEG!!! Totally hilarious.)
And yes, much of what Sai Baba says is SIMILAR to what Unity says. That is my point.

But True Believer Syndrome and the Confirmation Bias insulates the believer from the facts and from the evidence they refuse to see.

Coz

[skepdic.com]

[skepdic.com]
"Since by definition those suffering from true-believer syndrome are irrationally committed to their beliefs, there is no point in arguing with them. Evidence and logical argument mean nothing to them. Such people are by definition deluded in the psychiatric sense of the term: they believe what is false and are incapable of being persuaded by evidence and argument that their notions are in error.
Clearly, if there is any explanation for true-believer syndrome, it must be in terms of the satisfaction of emotional needs."

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Cosmophilospher
Unity is so decentralized, that many of the problems are LOCAL. Like the local Unity Church where the Minister was having sex with many women. Because he stacked the board, they could not get rid of him.

Aren't the boards elected? Clearly, that group needed to oust its board.

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Where are the FACTS to support their outrageous claims?
There are ZERO facts, just stories and anecdotes. Same stuff, different pile.

Again, you are confusing your opinion with "fact." It isn't.

I posted Myrtle Fillmore's own story. There is no "scientific" explanation for her cure from an "incurable" condition, yet somehow we're not supposed to accept her own explanation of it. We're supposed to rule it out. That's not logical.

Now, the Fillmores and Holmes and the Brooks sisters and Malinda Cramer (and Emma Curtis Hopkins, who taught most of them) are nobody special. They're not "messiahs" or anything. So if they can do these things, why can't you and I?

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The Unity "theories" of the God-Man make a very ripe audience for scammers like Sai Baba. The guy has been shown to be a fraud, and he does NOT have Avatar Superhuman Christ Powers.
(I even have a video where Sai Baba is shown to "calm an elephant", You can SEE THE ELEPHANT TRAINER BEHIND THE ELEPHANTS LEG!!! Totally hilarious.)
And yes, much of what Sai Baba says is SIMILAR to what Unity says. That is my point.

What exactly is your point?

Sai Baba is a fake.
Sai Baba preaches ideas similar to Unity.
Therefore, Unity is a fraud.

Sorry, that syllogism isn't a valid one. If you understood logic, you'd see that. While he himself may be a con man and a huckster, it doesn't mean that his ideas are all automatically invalid.

But I have never seen or heard of a Sai Baba presentation in a New Thought center anyway. A few people have read some of his work, but it's not as if his books are being sold in any churhc I know of. He's not being promoted. But New Thoughters tend to cast a wide net, and if Sai Baba or anyone else says something they find valid, they will pick it up. Nothing wrong with picking up a good idea, wherever it comes from.

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But True Believer Syndrome and the Confirmation Bias insulates the believer from the facts and from the evidence they refuse to see.

As I have said before, you yourself exhibit strong signs of "True Beleiver Syndrome." I've only ever seen you cite about two sources, both locked in an ideological box. I certainly don't mean to attack you personally, but it seems that your ideology absolutely cannot admit the possibility that these ideas might actually work, apparently because you had a bad experience. I'm sorry about that, but it does not reflect on the movement.

Can you explain how Myrtle Fillmore, for one, was cured of a condition every doctor told her was "incurable"? Ther eis no real scientific explanation for it, and no one can deny that it happened, so what brought it about? Luck? Accident? Or what?

Timmer:

You have offered no scientific evidence to support any healing claim or even cited research or tests to prove anything.

Sai Baba is someone with a deeply troubled history of scandal.

His "ideas," reportedly have been to prey upon boys and young men for sex using his "guru" status to gain undue influence and advantage. If this is evidence of enlightened thinking many would probably prefer to be left in the dark.

Again and again you use terms such as "cultic thinking" or "true believers" to categorize those who disagree with you. But these terms have very specific meanings that do not match your analogies.

The info about coerced, abusive sex with congregants on the part of a Unity minister was expressive of only one of the many problems that have been covered up by the Unity organiztion(s). Comparing it to the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church is just setting up a straw dog argument. Unity and the New Thought movement is miniscule compared to the Catholic church, and its history is comparatively brief.

In the Catholic church, you have a vast body of people covering up horrible abuse for centuries. In Unity, you have, basically, a few hundred members of clergy doing so. In fact, I personally know some of them.

Apples and organges, really. But it is interesting to note that a legal precedent was set when the victim sought legal redress, and that precedent has since been used to get abusive priests and other ministers off the hook in some cases in Maine.

BTW, while I find some of Timmer's arguments somewhat overstated and kind of off the mark (for example, there is no really understanding on that posters part of what is meant by "The Christ" -- and who really gives a damn about whether or not it is "blasphemy"?) in subsance he/she is absolutely correct. All of the things you say about New Though, RS, Unity, The Fillmores, etc. ... even where I somewhat agree with you, it's all a matter of where you put your faith. In that regard, when you strip away all the rhetoric about Truth, demonstration, etc., it is no different than any other religion. It may have it's own distinct system of internal logic, but in this conversation it should be heavily underscored that IT IS ITS OWN SYSTEM.

Also -- please look at what you are doing when you tell me that you have not experienced what I have experienced, and then proceed to attack my credibility on that basis, and thus negate my own experience. This is your totally unquestioned faith in New Thought at work, my friend, not any function of youf true critical faculties. Thus it leads you to filter out important information. If this information is not filtered out, you can't be right, and your faith demands that you be right at any cost -- and that you find some way to attack anything that threatens your rightness.

For example, I have stated that there are many, many Unity ministers who are wholly devoted to ACIM, some of whom are administrators -- and even some in the administration who are devotees of Endeavor Academy. You filter this information out, and continue to parrot the Unity party line that ACIM is just suplimentary material, that it is the choice of each individual whether or not to participate, etc. The fact is, Unity is permieated with ACIM. There may be some few small centers remaining where it isn't taught, mainly those affiliated with the Unity-Progressive Council -- but the ministers of those churchs have no real power, and no real will to stand up against Unity being subsumed by ACIM.

The argument about the difference between New Thought and New Age sounds good -- but for all intents and purposes, the lines were blurred long ago, when Unity started to incorporate more and more New Age and Transpersonal Psych elements into its services. "Guided Meditation" is one such element. It is nothing but hypnosis, pure and simple, and it is almost impossible to find even one Unity minister who will admit this is true. Or one who will admit the real reason that the meditation almost always comes right before the offering plate is passed. Also, most Unity libraries and bookstores are chock full of New Age material. The lines have been blurred on this, just as the lines between Unity and ACIM have been blurred since the days when the late Sig Paulson declared the channeled work in question to be almost identical to the Fillmorian teachings.

The same general trend exists to differing degrees in RS and other New Thought organizatins. RSI perhaps less so than UCRS. If you'd like, we can have a conversation about how treatment, as practiced today, is far different than it was in the days of Quimby and Hopkins, and is more like self-hynosis -- or perhaps just intense self-delusion.

From your posts, it would seem that your thinking on these subjects is absolutely steeped in dogma and rhetoric. You would call it "Truth". However, I suggest you look, as objectively as you can, at how you consistently deflect reasoned argument in favor of conditioned responses. These respnses have been conditioned, no doubt, by many, many sessions of trancework.

You may call it quided meditation. You may call it treatment. Whatever you call it, as it is done today it nothing that P.P. Quimby ever advocated in his teachings. It is what New Thought has adopted in recent decades to sell its message to more people and get them to give more money. That isn't "Truth". It is, frankly, a form of mental bondage. And didn't Cady warn us about mental bondage?

Hey, don't get me wrong -- I still like the works of Fillmores, Cady, Holmes, Quimby, Hopkins, etc. I find them quite informative and useful to this day. But I no longer put all my faith in their words as being gospel.

That, in my opinion, is the beginning of true mental freedom.

- Boz

Well, I am not going to waste to any more time with Timmer, as its obvious this person has zero interest in objective facts, and just in propagating the irrational New Thought dogma.

I will just be blunt.

What is it with the bullcrap about Myrtle Fillmore? Who cares? That is some ridiculous story written as a testimonial going back what, over a hundred years? Get real.

First, where are the notarized MEDICAL RECORDS?
Its just a story.
Its time to wake up and realize your Fillmore’s were BUSINESS PEOPLE and not saints.

By the way, MANY HUMAN ILLNESSES heal themselves through the natural processes of the body. Its likely her body just healed itself. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
Maybe she got better at the same time she started the "Mental Healing".
Maybe it was some local effects of self-hypnosis?
Maybe she lied.

No one with EVER know, as there is NO PROOF. Its a SALESPITCH for suckers.

Personally, I think she just exaggerated to help promote their business. Mary Baker Eddy flat out lied to do the same.
They were all a bunch of Mental Snake-Oil folks, and they were making some serious money. Of course, they were probably self-deluded as well.

Also, if Unity had ANY credibility, it would get several universities to conduct long term trials to try and show evidence of this "healing". There is NO PROOF. ZERO.
Just stories from guys like Timmer, and people who make a living promoting this mental junk.

As far as Sai Baba, it shows that the ideology of the GodMan sets people up to be abused and lied to.
There are no Godmen. Its a fraud.
The ideas behind New Thought are some type of narcissistic pathological fantasy.

Beyond that, any person who thinks they can attain the Christ Consciousness as in having the Powers of Christ, should see a mental health professional.

I am not going to waste too much more time with New Thought True Believers, like Timmer.
Obviously, he is deeply involved in this business.

Who knows, perhaps he is even a New Thought practioner.
You know...get the person on the phone, then they come to your office. You twist the religious words to make them think that something is going to happen. You hook them into the Mind Control system...they pay their $180.00 and come back many times...hey...if they BELIEVED better, then they will get better.

Money for nothing, and in some cases, they get the chicks for free, as has been noted.

Of course, they don't publish the stats of all those who still DIE.
Look, Christian Scientists were shown to die SOONER than the public. I bet Unity is the SAME as the public, as they see doctors. I bet there is ZERO benefit to this stuff.

This is why there are ZERO studies done by Unity, RS, or anyone else.

Look, self-hypnosis can lead to some healing effect, MAYBE, in certain cases.
But the overall idea that you can become One with God, and heal cancer by Magic, and have supernatural powers, and if you get good enough, even Raise People from the Dead, is pure madness. That is what Unity is really all about.
Virtually all of these New Age Cults tell the same story.
YOU CAN BECOME LIKE A GOD.
Hey, it says so in the bible, right?

At least conventional religion recognizes the insanity in that position, and the danger, which is why it is blasphemy. I am not a fan of blasphemy, but in this case I agree. Humans thinking they are Gods is SICK. Its mental illness. Its Grandiosity that is beyond sanity. And it can lead to horrible abuses of power.

All of the balderdash and Newspeak and New Age junk is a fig-leaf for the core ideas that you can attain the powers of Christ and become a Godman.

I am tired of this endless repetitive nonsense with Timmer.
All I can say is a hope he is not a New Thought practioner, who can then spin these dishonest Fables on vulnerable people. Its a terrible mental trap that can lead to real problems.
And there are plenty of Mental Healing Snake-Oil Spin-Doctors out there more than willing to twist reality to suit their needs, and get some money for nothing, and for a select few, get the chics for free too.

You know, in some ways, the New Thought people are even worse than the Landmarkians, i think. Landmarkians are at least more cynical, and mainly ADMIT that they are leading the sheep to the slaughter. But the New Thought folks think they are literally Jesus Christ, and can do no wrong, even as people are dying from lack of medical treatment, and are being recruited into cults right in their midst.
On top of this, they consider themselves intellectuals and "scientists" when in fact they are practicing Antiscience.
It really is a type of mental poison, in many cases.
The self-delusion is unreal.

Coz

By the way, the dishonest charge that someone like myself is a type of Anti-True Believer is an abject falsehood.
The reality is the exact opposite.

I freed myself from the New Thought prison, and a few other mental prisons, by FOLLOWING THE EVIDENCE, and exercising Critical Thinking.
By stopping "Believing" things, and carefully looking for facts.

If there was proof that the New Thought ideas worked, i would support them.
But the evidence shows it does NOT work. The evidence shows it is a delusion and a fraud.

We can benefit our emotional life, and even to a limited degree our overall health by using the cognitive tools of things like Cognitive Therapy. But these are the opposite to the New Thought craziness. You carefully Reality Test your thinking, you look for evidence, you try to think rationally and critically.

So i advocate the exact opposite position than the True Believer syndrome.
All i say, is SHOW ME THE FACTS, the objective scientific evidence from many many sources.

New Thought, and cults, say the exact opposite.
They basically say, "blessed are they who believe without proof".
Or, "if you Doubt, then it won't work!"
or, "you are outpicturing your doubt, so it IS working".
so... "you are creating your cancer by your thinking".
or, "if you believed in Christ properly, then your AIDS would vanish".

That is the ultimate in Mental Fraud and deliberate cultic confusion.

"If you doubt the New Thought ideas, then they will not work".
or even worse, as has been sold by Timmer...

"the New Thought Law of Mind IS working, and that is why your life is as it is".

Can anyone see the confidence trick in these statements?
No matter what your circumstances, that is the "proof" that it works!
That is a complete fraud.

The only way to prove it would be to do proper objective, double-blind controlled studies, which after 100 years there are ZERO, as they known damn well they will NOT work.

(they even have an excuse for that. They say, if there are DOUBTERS in the testing process, then The Law wrecks the results!!!! The only way to get good results, is to have True Believers do the testing!)

Fallacy after fallacy.
Its a pure confidence trick.

That is a blatant Catch-22 mental confidence trick, and can be a prison that can trap people for decades. The way out of this trap is to learn how to sort fact from fiction, and imagination from objective reality, and to demand proper scientific evidence.
Sadly, most of society is scientifically illiterate, and has never been shown how to figure this stuff out, so they get tricked by the New Thought Catch-22 confidence trick.

Coz

Sad to say, much of what you say it true. I'm not quite where you are as far as the motives, etc. of the Fillmores are concerned. But I certainly lean more toward your view than I do that of Timmer.

I'm not an athiest, but I've definitely moved into the agnostic camp. I know something's up with the universe, but I no longer trouble myself as to the exact details, and I hate being bullied by those who are convinced they have it all figured out (including some extremely didactic athiests, present company excepted). The insanity that I encountered in Unity, and in my encounters with many other New Thought and New Age groups took away the last vestiges in me of the need for any kind of religion. 9-11, too, had an impact there. Made me see what can result from blind unquestioned faith.

BTW, re:Landmark. I did it, I "got it", I got had. Nearly went freakin' nuts shortly after, too. Snake oil, pure and simple. And guess what -- Erhard based part of it on Unity and New Thought ideas, in addition to those of Scientology. Not only that, but the guy who came up with the first LGAT, which infuenced est tremenously, was a failed Unity ministerial student. And there are many, many Unity ministers today who are Landmark grads, Landmark siminar leaders, etc. Next to ACIM, it is one of the most influential groups on the thinking of Unity ministers. If that doesn't make someone stop and wonder where that organization is headed, I don't know what will.

Another thing -- I indavertently referred to you as Timmer in part of an earlier message (not yet posted as of this writing). It gets confusing on this board sometimes, expecially since I've been mainly accessing it either on library computers or a dial up connection at home --and sometimes have to log in several times during one session.

- Boz

Hey Boz, thx for the post.
Yeah, i have atheistic tendencies, but that is not what this forum is about at all. Belief in God, or not, is a personal matter, and each person has to figure that baby out for themselves as best as they can.

To me it seems, what matters is how these organizations work, and what they are doing to people.

I don't know the motives of the Fillmores, but they were business people before they got into the religion game.
Who owns Unity now i wonder? I heard it was passed down to their children? I don't know...Someone is making lots of money....

I have heard that life down at Unity Village HQ is totally absurd. I only knew one guy who went there and he said it was a total waste.

There is a Landmark-Unity connection. Even in my city there was some cross-breeding.

I think Unity done in real moderation, and done as a metaphor is one thing.
But when people get fanatical, and supernatural about it, and start collecting huge some of money...
Lets face it, Unity pulls in some serious coin...its a huge business.

Its one thing to have a philosophy, its another thing to make claims of supernatural healings, etc, and not provide the scientific evidence.

In my old life, i enjoyed some of the Fillmore's writings myself.
But i would have to reread them now that i have a brain, to see how much sense they make now!!

Personally, i think the belief system can be a real trap, when taken to its logical (illogical) conclusion. It can open the doors to real mental abuse, in my view.

Coz