I tend to hold with Ezekiel 34 in the which pastors are castigated by 'The Lord' who says that He will lead and teach His flock and bring them to His 'holy mountain' since the teachers are in the way of His plans and exploiting the sheep.

I also tend to groove on the scripture in Jeremiah that declares that 'cursed is the man that trusts in men' (17:7) - the Greek Testament can be twisted any which way to suit the readers, hence the thousands and thousands of denominations all claiming they have the truth.

Coolhermit:

Please keep in mind that this thread is specifically about Thieme and his leadership.

Try to stay focused on this topic rather than drifting into a more general discussion.

Of course you can start a new thread if you wish, i.e. within the rules of the message board.

Quote
radaph
The man is gruff and blunt, no doubt. But the concept of the churches being dependant on their pastors is very much a biblical concept.

Pastors are called "shepherds" in the bible.
Sheep need a shepherd, and they depend on him.

If we could get all we need from just reading the bible for ourselves, we wouldn't need pastors and teachers. But the bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit distributes said gifts for the building up of the church. So is He wasting his time, and would be better off distributing bibles instead?

If you have a problem with this concept, your problem is with the bible, not with Bob Thieme.

Truthtesty: No. You have been misled. The problem is with Bob Thieme's false concept.

Per Dr. Wall's doctoral dissertation:

Critique
At the heart of Thieme's doctrine of right pastor is a questionable concept
of church government. However, even if Baptist polity is accepted, Thieme has
added some elements to the Baptistic view of the pastor which are clearly
contrary to the biblical pattern and which produce some dangerous spiritual byproducts.
We will examine Thieme's three basic distinctive concepts first; then
we will list a series of dangerous implications of such a doctrine.
Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority.
Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of
church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the
protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29;
Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or
"bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear
biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all
in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself.
Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it
teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two
major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of
11 Thieme, Establishment, pp. 55-57.
12 Sharon Farmer interview, 29 September 1977.
13 Interview with Alice Blickle, Houston, Texas, 13 October 1977. Mrs. Blickle further stated that
her sister proved to be 'more grace oriented" than she was, since her sister continued to show love
to her.
132
pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all
believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second,
maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to
one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular
teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to
single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary,
there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary
church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had
both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the
ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3
John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock,
forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ.
Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes
doctrine."
Third, he gives a false impression as to the believer's personal
responsibility relative to testing the reliability of teachers and relative to his own
personal study. For Thieme, once one joins a church fellowship, he is to
unquestioningly respond to the pastor's authoritative teaching and rely on this
pastor to do his study for him. This contradicts the biblical example of the
Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and the clear exhortations to test the doctrine of teachers
(I Cor. 12:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; Gal. 1: 6-1 0). It also contradicts the intent of the
gift of pastor-teacher. According to Ephesians 4, it along with the gift of
evangelist and the temporary gifts of apostle and prophet were primarily given to
the church to prepare or equip the saints to minister and edify the body of Christ.
It would seem strange indeed to think of one's being equipped to minister as a
self-sustaining, contributing unit in the body of Christ, and yet unable to be selfsustaining
in his own personal study of Scripture.
Implications. The implications of Thieme's teaching in this area are farreaching.
Although the concept of right pastor does produce an efficient church
operation and simplifies the believer's learning process,14 the negative results of
such a teaching far outweigh the advantages.
First, Thieme's approach produces division. Thieme's commendable
attempts to discourage division by his teaching notwithstanding, division
continues to develop. If one wants the product of Thieme's intellectual research
and "breakthroughs," he must soon adopt Thieme as his right pastor, even if he
lives in another city. This frequently results in either an emotional or physical
separation from a local body. In fact in many cases, Thieme encourages people to
separate from other churches if their appetites for doctrinal teaching of Thieme's
type is not being met. Following is an excerpt from a form letter also quoted in
part above:
14 William O. Menefee to Joe L. Wall, 20 October 1977. Menefee is a successful Houston
businessman who expresses a deep appreciation for Thieme's ministry to him. Formerly he served
as the lay director for the Houston area Campus Crusade for Christ.
133
Therefore, if you find the teaching of that church
incompatible with your norms and standards concerning Bible
doctrine, then only you can make the decision whether or not to
separate yourself. As long as you are oriented to Bible doctrine
and understand the significance of the ritual of baptism any pastorteacher
can baptize you. As far as communion is concerned,
church membership is not necessary to partake of the Eucharist,
although some churches do limit communion to their own
membership. Therefore, you can take communion anywhere if it is
available to you or it may be possible that you will find other
believers who are also listening to tapes to join with you in this
most significant memorial. These are functions which will be
provided for you by the Lord in His own time.15
To assist groups that separate from local churches to form tape groups
Thieme, through his executive secretary, distributes information on how to
establish a tapers' church:
The following information constitutes suggestions for
organizing a tape class. It must be understood, however, that in the
final analysis, each group must form its own discipline.
It is advisable to stabilize a group of believers who wish to
gather together and hold Bible classes and formal church services.
These meetings may be held in a school, a large home, a funeral
chapel, or any other location available and suitable for this
purpose....
If you decide to incorporate as a church, it will be
necessary for you to draw up a Charter within the requirements of
your state. You will need three male officers to act as Chairman,
Treasurer, and General Administrator for your church group.
Enclosed is a Berachah Church doctrinal statement for your
information.
Biblically, it is perfectly legitimate for the believer to
obtain doctrinal teaching which is vital to his spiritual growth by
means of a tape recorder.... 16
Taper churches are strange indeed in the context of Thieme's ecclesiology.
By extending his right pastor authority through his tape methodology, he has not
only produced division in various communities, but he has produced numerous
situations that contradict his own ecclesiology: churches having no authoritative
pastor-teacher on the scene to exercise discipline and oversight, but which seem
to carry some of the traits of a denomination.
15 Tapping, "Form Letter, Leaving."
16 R. B. Thieme, Jr., "Tape Group Information," unpublished form, Berachah Church, Houston,
Texas, n.d.
134
Second, a combination of Thieme's authoritative methodology and the
doctrine of right pastor produces both a mentality and an emotional response that
makes it difficult for many students to relate to any other teacher. One former
student related how she was saved under Thieme's ministry and how valuable
those first two years of studying under Thieme were (1961-63). She confided,
however, "I had a hard time hearing anyone else" who was ministering the Word
after we moved to Dallas.17 Another student, who had spent his entire life until
age 18 under Thieme's ministry, stated, "When I went to Stephen F. Austin
(College), I had a barrier and a rebellious attitude against any other teacher of the
Word." He further observed that his attitude had been "a result of the teaching
and ecclesiological viewpoint taught by R. B. Thieme, Jr."18
This extreme emphasis on authority can also result in an irresponsible
submissive attitude. Although Thieme may not directly encourage such an
attitude, his doctrine of right pastor and his authoritative methodology does.
Denny Rydberg quotes a member of Berachah Church as stating, "if the Colonel
told us to build a whore house on the back lot of the Church, we would do it
without questioning."19
Third, this doctrine and its accompanying methodology can easily produce
a man-centered mentality. The manager of a Christian radio station in Houston
states that he has a number of friends who say that they can only be taught by
Thieme. No one else can teach them anything. He goes on to relate that "one
active member says that at the end of each age God raises up a prophet or
spokesman, and he believes that Bob Thieme is the man for this age."20
Fourth, the doctrine of right pastor produces an unhealthy situation for a
local body. If the local body is exposed only to one spiritual gift, and that in the
life of one personality, there will tend to be a one-sided mentality developed in
the lives of the people.
Fifth, there are problems related to the basic humanity of the pastor.
Every pastor-teacher is a sinner by nature.21 Furthermore, no pastor-teacher is
perfect in his interpretation of Scripture. In view of the fact that the Scriptures
indicate that an elder-pastor is to be an example to the flock (I Pet. 5:3), if a given
flock is restricted to the authoritative teaching of one man in the body of Christ,
there will be a large gap in the example lived before that particular flock. Also,
Thieme's concept of authority discourages a critical evaluation of his teaching, so
his students are not only limited by having only one pastoral example, but
17 Interview with Judy Montgomery, Houston, Texas, 23 September 1977.
18 Dean interview, 22 September 1977.
19 Rydberg, "Sieg Heil," p.24.
20 Interview with Peter Steigerwald, station manager, KHCB-FM radio, Houston, Texas, 23
September 1977.
21 For example, Thieme's personal prejudices against blacks (described as “melanoderms”) and
Chicanos comes out dogmatically in his teaching. Note magnetic tape reproductions of messages
preached at Berachah Church: "Philippians 4:4," 22 February 1976; "Genesis 14:10," 21
September 1976; "Genesis 15:5," 8 October 1976; "Genesis 15:6," 10 October 1976.
135
they must accept the errors which he teaches along with the truth without any
functional means for discriminating between the two.
Sixth, as much as Thieme emphasizes the importance of growing
spiritually, the application of the doctrine of right pastor actually has a retarding
effect on growth. With the dependency upon one's right pastor, one is moved a
step beyond "milk," but he isn't taught how to carve the meat and to chew it up.
Students of Thieme who consistently apply the doctrine of right pastor easily get
hooked on a "bottle of strained meat," that is, doctrine that has gone through the
Thieme grid. The job of the pastor-teachers in the body is to prepare or equip the
saints (Eph. 4:12). This means that the individual believer should be trained so
that he can be self-sustaining both in the spiritual combat of life and in his
ministry to the rest of the body. Thieme, on the other hand, discourages personal
Bible study22 and ridicules anyone who attempts it unless he is a trained pastorteacher.
23
Seventh, an extensive emphasis on the doctrine of right pastor can produce
a fear of leaving a local church. If Bible doctrine is defined in terms of that which
one's pastor-teacher communicates, then leaving his authority, in the minds of
many, is tantamount to leaving God or moving into reversionism. This is similar
to the emotional slavery developed by the authoritative leaders of some of the
newer, false cults.
Eighth, we have already noticed that this extreme view of the pastor can
result in a warped view of separation. Biblically, separation is not related to the
issue of a pastor-teacher. Separation is for extreme immorality, a rebellious spirit,
the causing of division in the body, and doctrinal heresy. Students of Thieme who
break relationships with friends and/or family over the Thieme issue are totally
out of line biblically.24
Ninth, this concept of the pastor can produce a false sense of superiority in
a pastor-teacher. It can also engender an independence that hinders interaction
with others in the body and that makes his own personal spiritual growth difficult
in many areas.
Tenth, a harsh, authoritatively demanding pastor-teacher can produce
some unwanted results in some students such as a cold, overbearing, aggressive
attitude, that leaves little room for differences of opinion. 25
22 R. B. Thieme, Jr., "Phil 3 via 11 Timothy 4:8 Doc/Surpassing Grace (SG3),” Philippians,
magnetic tape reproduction of message preached at Berachah Church, Houston, Texas, 26
December 1975. He says that if you read the Bible, "you're not going to get anything out of it ...
you'd better come to Bible class . . . or listen to a tape." See also Thieme, Super-grace, p. 1.
23 Thieme, Tape of "Phil 3: 15b."
24 See the passages on separation: I Cor. 5; 2 Cor. 6:14-18; Gal. 1; 2 Thess. 3:6-15.
25 Telephone interview with Randy Price, student, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas, 23
September 1977. Mr. Price a long time Thieme taper himself, indicated further that, while in
college, he noticed that those students on a steady diet of Thieme tapes became more narrow and
unaccepting of divergent points of view, and unwilling to discuss openly spiritual things with
other believers. Those tapers who had a balanced diet of tapes, books and church services under
other pastors, he observed, tended to be more balanced and to develop true spiritual qualities.
136



Truthtesty

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer - Systematic Theology Vol. 4, Page 151, 152

5. The Church and Her Order. In his Bible Correspondence Course, Dr. C. I. Scofield writes thus at length of the functions of the organized church:

The story of the development of the local church is gathered by inference from the Acts and Epistles. So gathered, two errors of men concerning church order are at once refuted. The first is the notion that the apostolic local churches were modeled in organization upon the synagogue. Doubtless resemblances may be traced, as the synagogue itself has shadowy resemblances to things in ancient Israel. But the synagogue organization was perfectly familiar to the church at Jerusalem, and yet that church consisted of thousands of believers before there was even the most rudimentary organization; when, at last, the work of administering the charity of the church became a burden beyond reason to the apostles, they based the direction to “choose seven men of good report,” etc., not upon synagogue analogy, but upon the reason of the matter (Acts 6:1–4). The second error is that the Acts and Epistles contain such a doctrine concerning church organization as constitutes a binding rule, a new and rigid Leviticus. One body of believers, for example, erect the statement that the disciples at Troas came together on the first day of the week to break bread, into a law that all disciples everywhere should meet every Lord’s day for that purpose. Surely a broad generalization from one instance! What seems clear from a consideration of all the passages is that gradually the normal local church organization included elders and deacons. “Bishops” and elders seem identical (Titus 1:5; cf. vs. 7). It should be added that both the eldership and diaconate in the apostolic churches were plural. There is no instance of one elder in a local church. The functions of the elders were (1) to rule (1 Tim. 3:4, 5; 5:17); (2) to guard the body of revealed truth from perversion and error (Titus 1:9); (3) to “oversee” the church as a shepherd his flock (Acts 20:28, where “feed” is literally to “tend as a shepherd”; John 21:16; Heb. 13:17; 1 Pet. 5:2). Elders were (1) ordained (Greek, cheirotoneo, which may mean either “to create or appoint by vote,” or “to elect, appoint, create,” Thayer) by the apostles (Acts 14:23); or (2) they were so “ordained” by men appointed by an apostle (Titus 1:5); or (3) were made overseers by the Holy Spirit (Acts 20:28), an expression which is not explained unless that explanation is in Peter’s phrase (1 Pet. 5:2), “Taking the oversight thereof”; in which case it might mean that the Ephesian elders were so evidently in possession of the gift of government (1 Cor. 12:28), and of the qualifications afterward defined in the Epistles to Timothy and to Titus, that without note or apostolical appointment they “took” the oversight, etc. This seems far-fetched as interpretation, and is open to the objection that such a practice would fill the eldership with the most pushing, conceited, and self-seeking persons in the churches. The deacons seem to have been concerned with the offices of comfort and charity rather than with those of oversight, and to have been chosen by the people (Acts 6:1–6; 1 Tim. 3:8–13). It should be added that appointment to office in the apostolic church was with the laying on of the hands of the apostles (Acts 6:6; 13:3; 2 Tim. 1:6) or of the presbytery or eldership (1 Tim. 4:14). But a distinction of first importance to a correct understanding of the New Testament local church is that between office and ministry. Office was by appointment, ministry was by gift of the Spirit. Philip, one of the seven first deacons of the church in Jerusalem, is a sufficient illustration of this distinction. By office he was a deacon; by gift, an evangelist (Acts 6:5; 21:8). No doubt the appointment to office was, so long as the churches were spiritual, the recognition of spiritual gifts and graces in the men appointed, but nothing is more outstanding than that in the New Testament churches ministry was absolutely free. The abiding ministry gifts are enumerated in Ephesians 4:11: “And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.” These, it should be observed, are not gifts of the Spirit to men, as in 1 Corinthians 12, but gifts of Spirit-gifted men to the church. They belong to the whole “church which is his body.” No instance is found of the ordination of a prophet, or of an evangelist, or of a pastor and teacher “over” any local church, though local churches were ministered to by them (Acts 11:19–28), and often for years continuously. The laying on of hands was either for the impartation of spiritual gift (2 Tim. 1:6; 1 Tim. 4:14), or for setting apart to office (Acts 6:6). It should also be noted that, as ministry was by the Spirit and was free, so the ordering of place, time, and method in service was kept under the free authority of the Spirit (Acts 13:1–4; 16:6–10). It remains to add that the New Testament knows nothing of a priesthood other than the priesthood of all believers under the High-priesthood of Christ; nothing of a “clergy” as forming a body distinct from the “laity”; nor anything of certain men set apart to baptize and to administer the Lord’s supper, though doubtless it would be within New Testament liberty to designate one or more for these purposes.—Op. cit., pp. 428–30


Truthtesty

Quote
radaph
can tell from what certain people have said about some of his doctrines that they either haven't heard the whole story or they are extremely biased. Right man Right woman, is a perfect example. I believe whole-heartedly in that doctrine, and it hasn't destroyed my marriage. It has made it stronger.

I would like to apologize for this lie.

The doctrine of Right-man / Right-woman has been very destructive to my marriage. I just didn't want to admit it until now.

Quote
radaph
The man is gruff and blunt, no doubt. But the concept of the churches being dependant on their pastors is very much a biblical concept.

Pastors are called "shepherds" in the bible.
Sheep need a shepherd, and they depend on him.

If we could get all we need from just reading the bible for ourselves, we wouldn't need pastors and teachers. But the bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit distributes said gifts for the building up of the church. So is He wasting his time, and would be better off distributing bibles instead?

If you have a problem with this concept, your problem is with the bible, not with Bob Thieme.

RADAPH,
Thanks for this.

YOU SAID:
The man is gruff and blunt, no doubt. But the concept of the churches being dependant on their pastors is very much a biblical concept.

Pastors are called "shepherds" in the bible.
Sheep need a shepherd, and they depend on him.



REPLY:
Gruff and blunt is not the issue. The issue is IS IT TRUE AS HE TAUGHT IT? And being DEPENDENT ON PASTORS as Thieme teaches it is NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Sheep do need SHEPHERDS, but the shepherds do not PREDIGEST THE GRASS FOR THE SHEEP AND FEED THEM THE RESULT as if it were unadulterated and pure grass.
A shepherd leads the sheep to the GRASS in PASTURES that are safe and nourishing. We are to FEED DIRECTLY ON THE WORD, not depend on someone else's SPOON FEEDING it to us through his personal study, nowever educated he may be.


YOU SAID:
If we could get all we need from just reading the bible for ourselves, we wouldn't need pastors and teachers. But the bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit distributes said gifts for the building up of the church. So is He wasting his time, and would be better off distributing bibles instead?


REPLY:
I notice you have not cited one scripture to sustain your claims. Why not?

We do have pastors and teachers, but they do not take the place of the HOLY SPIRIT AND THE WORD AS OUR FOOD. NOBODY should be spoon feeding PREDIGESTED RESULTS OF THEIR STUDY TO YOU AS YOUR ONLY SOURCE OF TRUTH.


You have the RIGHT and the OBLIGATION to EXAMINE ALL THINGS, hold fast to that which is good. If the Bible was not your source and standard of truth, what do you suppose men have died for through the ages to preserve it and to give it to you in English?

Like the Bereans of old, who tested all the Apostle Paul said TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT WHAT HE SAID TO THEM WAS SO, the only measure they had available to them were THE WORDS OF THE LIVING GOD, at that time they probably had only the written JEWISH SCRIPTURES. And Paul COMMENDED THEM FOR IT. Unfortunately, Thieme's ministry does no such thing.


YOU SAID:
If you have a problem with this concept, your problem is with the bible, not with Bob Thieme


REPLY:
Your comment equates THE BIBLE WITH BOB THIEME'S TEACHING. Do you see how wrong that is? What Bob Thieme teaches is to his faithful followers, IS BIBLE DOCTRINE, which puts the words of a man and makes them equal to Scripture.

Thank you though for continuing to share your thoughts.


Sistersoap

Quote
truthlover
Apparently there are some Thiemites that don't believe he ever discouraged anyone from reading the Bible for themselves. I was there and heard it with my own ears numerous times, but didn't have a direct quote until now. I found the following quote on the thiemite.blogspot.com site:

[i:f326bbd1dc]"The soul is a receiver. The lungs of the soul are apertures designed to receive bible doctrine. Either directly in Bible teaching or in Bible study or through the storage area of the human spirit.

The mechanics of this thing involves several aspects: You can store doctrine in the human spirit and use it later. You can take it directly through Bible teaching; and when you have become mature enough, so that you are spiritually self sustaining you can read and benefit from the Bible, but the worst fallacy in the world is the idea that a born again believer can sit down and read the Bible and derive spiritual benefit. That is a farce and every evangelist says 'Now read your Bible every day and everything will be alright.' and reading your Bible everyday isn't going to mean a thing, you have to be taught. So the greatest farce in the world is that you, a believer, a new believer, can sit down and read the Bible and learn something. That's why the gift of pastor-teacher exists in the church and its a long time before you get to where you can read and understand. When you see a passage you may not understand it, but once you have categories of doctrine, you can identify categories and work it out. So, don't kid yourself, when the day comes that any new believer can open the Bible and become an expert that's the day when we won't need pastors and teachers and I'll go to Hawaii or I'll go back into the service or something. ... So whether you like it or not, you are dependent on me."
Bob Thieme[/i:f326bbd1dc]

One of the worst lies he ever told in my opinion.

Truthlover

THANKS so much Truthlover! That is the passage for the most part that Rev. Graves played on the audio no Thiemer will admit to listening to on any forum I have ever cited it on.

I would like to share your post with others outside this forum. Would you give me permission to do that?

Thanks!

Sis

Quote
orangeperuviscacha
(Radaph), “I can tell from what certain people have said about some of his doctrines that they either haven’t heard the whole story or they are extremely biased. Right man Right woman, is a perfect example. I believe whole-heartedly in that doctrine, and it hasn’t destroyed my marriage. It has made it stronger. And guess, what. I believe I didn’t marry my right woman. But it doesn’t matter. Grace trumps all. When you are studying His word, and seeking His will, He can and will always turn a bad situation into a good one, cursing into blessing. Right man/right woman is the ideal situation. But Thieme never once implied that marriage can’t work outside of that scenario, or that divorce is ever a viable alternative.”


Thieme Jr., in “Right Man/Right Woman” (1st page)...

..... the next most important decision any member of the human race can make is that of choosing the right person as a lifetime partner. The right man must find the right woman; the right woman must find the right man. Anything else is — as close as you will come to that phrase (which is a misnomer) — “hell on earth.” Hell is in hell, and it’s future; but if anyone wanted to describe “hell on earth”, in one sentence marriage to the wrong woman or to the wrong man would be it! One of the greatest causes of suffering in life comes from marrying the wrong person.”

That is once.

HELLO, ORANGE!

Thanks for the direct quote. It might be worthwhile to create a new thread called RIGHT MAN RIGHT WOMAN or just ERRORS OF R.B.THIEME JR.

You doing OK?


Sistersoap

Quote
radaph

Quote
radaph
can tell from what certain people have said about some of his doctrines that they either haven't heard the whole story or they are extremely biased. Right man Right woman, is a perfect example. I believe whole-heartedly in that doctrine, and it hasn't destroyed my marriage. It has made it stronger.

I would like to apologize for this lie.

The doctrine of Right-man / Right-woman has been very destructive to my marriage. I just didn't want to admit it until now.

DEAR RADAPH,

Thank you! You encourage me enormously and this makes your change of heart look much more genuine than it might otherwise seem. I found it freeing to tell the truth in public and I think you will too.

Your sister in Christ,

Sistersoap