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Cosmophilospher
Eddy flat out lied about how CS was created.
She was treated by Quimby, and then stole his ideas, and changed them around a bit!

Mrs. Eddy did not admit that she got a lot of her ideas from Quimby, but everyone knows it and most people knew it then.

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But a "normal" religion is much preferable to the CS craziness, in my opinion.

CS ha problems, like not using doctors, but many of its principles are sound. And it is the root of otehr movements that are much more open.

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frogs25
the way Christian Scientist were brainwashed to think

So they're brainwashed? Do you think it's possible that people join CS because they buy the philosophy?

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In a nutshell she only wanted to continue practicing it because she thought my birth was a result of CS prayer.

As it may well have been. Prayer can do powerful things.

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Her after birth challenges demanded that she seek medical assistance.

Then she should have gone to a doctor...and a practitioner.

Lets get real and call a spade a spade.
Eddy flat out lied many times about how she created CS.
A lie of omission and lies of commision are still lies.
Eddy is a proven liar. She flat out lied many many times.

Also, CS is NOT "sound" in any way.
Denying the germ theory of disease is not sound. Its totally nutty and very dangerous.

Also, they FORBID you from going to a doctor. If you go to a doctor, you are betraying CS and wrecking your life.
This is the danger in CS.
If they said, "sure go to a Dr., and pray at the same time" then there might not be a Cult medical problem!

Your statement she "should" have seen a doctor is cultic thinking. You are BLAMING THE VICTIM. She was victimized by a damaging cult which resulted in her death.
Her mother died because of CS. That is very serious.
I hope you can see how arrogant and damaging your comments are to someone who has suffered at the hands of a cult.

There have been many DEATHS from CS. This is not a game, or a theory. People have died.

There is no evidence that prayer can make you pregnant. That is more magical thinking based on religious beliefs.

Of course Timmer, you believe all this stuff, and perhaps even do it for a living, so its to be expected you will defend these groups.

CS, and most New Thought schools use many principles found in "brainwashing" and "Mind Control".

[www.culteducation.com]
Its coercive influence. That's the trick.
Its "Mind Control" all right.

Coz

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Cosmophilospher
Also, CS is NOT "sound" in any way.

Well, that is your opinion. I find many sound principles in CS; it needs to be open and expand beyond wehre Mr.s Eddy was, however. It's stuck.

Tehre is, however, a new group calling themselves "New Christian Science" that is trying to move the philosophy beyond the place where it's stuck. The Mother Church is resisting them tooth and nail.

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Also, they FORBID you from going to a doctor. If you go to a doctor, you are betraying CS and wrecking your life.

Yet many Christian Scientists do it. I know of a number of them.

The teaching that you should not go to a doctor is a logical follw-on to their belief that the body, indeed all matter, is unreal. If the body is unreal and mind is all there is, then going to a doctor is a worhtless exercise.

This is one of the places where CS and New Thought differ. In New Thought, Divine Mind is all there is, and body is one of the aspects of it. Thus it is quite real. Not the ultimate truth, but quite real. It is Spirit, Mind, in form.

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Your statement she "should" have seen a doctor is cultic thinking. You are BLAMING THE VICTIM.

Are you going to fall back on that old, invalid cliche?

It is not blaming the victim. It is simply the smart thing to do. If you need a doctor, go to a doctor. And also pray, and have others pray for you. Doctors such as Bernie Siegel, Larry Dossey, and others have written about how helpful and essential prayer is in healing.

Ultimately, neither the doctor nor the poractitioner can heal you; youo do that yourself. But the doctor and the practitioner are instruments of God to help that healing unfold.

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CS, and most New Thought schools use many principles found in "brainwashing" and "Mind Control".

That is a false statement, at least where New Thought is concerned. Neither brainwahing nor mind control has anything to do with any of it. It's simply disciplining your consciousness, using the principles, to change the conditons you experience for the better. And many people have done it for many years.

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Its coercive influence. That's the trick.

As you know well, there is nothing coercive about it. People come to the movement of their own accord, they stay or not of their own accord, and when they see the improvement in their lives, they stick around. If they don't, then they move on. Simple as that. No coercion involved, as you know.

Its not my opinion. There are ZERO objective facts to back up CS. Just anecdotes.

What guys like you refuse to understand is that there are VULNERABLE PEOPLE who actually BELIEVE that horseshit they are fed.
Of course people should go to doctors. But some don't because they have been "brainwashed". There are horror stories of parents keeping thier kids from doctors and the kids have a big tumor, and then die from it. That is why CS is cultic and dangerous.

The anti-doctor crud comes from Quimby and is not "logical". Its insanity.

Some New Thought people are coercive in how they use it.
Some are just Smooth Talkers.
Some are True Believers who blind themselves to the facts.
Some are more moderate and accept science and doubt.

There is a massive difference in doing general "prayer" while seeking healthcare, and CS.
I have no problem with general "prayer" as even if it does nothing, it might relax the patient, and make them FEEL better, if not get better.

New Thought is based on some very simple errors in thinking, that the founders of New Thought were unable to see, it seems to me due to lack of education. Some of those guys didn't finish grade school, so they just don't know what they don't know.

Now you have Wishful Thinkers who refuse to see the facts, and lots of cults moving in, as there are lots of suckers in that movement.

As far as Eddy, she was a flat out "Cult Leader", and a liar, that is clear.

Coz

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Timmer

Well, that is your opinion. I find many sound principles in CS;

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Your statement she "should" have seen a doctor is cultic thinking. You are BLAMING THE VICTIM.

Are you going to fall back on that old, invalid cliche?

It is not blaming the victim. It is simply the smart thing to do. If you need a doctor, go to a doctor. And also pray, and have others pray for you. Doctors such as Bernie Siegel, Larry Dossey, and others have written about how helpful and essential prayer is in healing.

Ultimately, neither the doctor nor the poractitioner can heal you; youo do that yourself. But the doctor and the practitioner are instruments of God to help that healing unfold.

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CS, and most New Thought schools use many principles found in "brainwashing" and "Mind Control".

That is a false statement, at least where New Thought is concerned. Neither brainwahing nor mind control has anything to do with any of it. It's simply disciplining your consciousness, using the principles, to change the conditons you experience for the better. And many people have done it for many years.

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Its coercive influence. That's the trick.

As you know well, there is nothing coercive about it. People come to the movement of their own accord, they stay or not of their own accord, and when they see the improvement in their lives, they stick around. If they don't, then they move on. Simple as that. No coercion involved, as you know.

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Cosmophilospher
Its not my opinion. There are ZERO objective facts to back up CS. Just anecdotes.

Recorded accounts by the people involved of the healings that they have had, which is dismissed as invalid evidence by the "Establishment" for whatever reason.

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Of course people should go to doctors. But some don't because they have been "brainwashed". There are horror stories of parents keeping thier kids from doctors and the kids have a big tumor, and then die from it.

Which is one of the weaknesses in Christian Science teaching that New Thought corrected.

However, that term "brainwashed" is very pejorative, and I suspect deliberately so. People who sincerely follow a philosophy are not necessarily or even usually brainwahed; they just like the ideas presented.

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Some New Thought people are coercive in how they use it.

I've probably spent more time with New Thought people than you have, and I have NEVER seen anything coercive.

An dyou can't simultaneously argue that the mvoement is coercive and that its weakness is that it's too open. Coercive openness. There is a concept I'll have to chew on for a while.

And as we are often taught, healing is not necessarily cure and cure is not necessarily healing.

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There is a massive difference in doing general "prayer" while seeking healthcare, and CS. I have no problem with general "prayer" as even if it does nothing, it might relax the patient, and make them FEEL better, if not get better.

Well, doctors such as Larry Dossey, Bernard Siegel, and others have said that pryaer is a vital part of a patient's recovery, that it actually helps patients get better. Norman Cousins wrote a book on essentially the same theme. None of these people, as far as I know, is (or was, in the case of Cousins) in the New Thought movement.

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New Thought is based on some very simple errors in thinking, that the founders of New Thought were unable to see, it seems to me due to lack of education. Some of those guys didn't finish grade school, so they just don't know what they don't know.

1. School is not the only place of learning; you can learn as much or more by reading, by experience, by taking other kinds of classes. (Especially with the declining standards of formal education these days.)

2. Who are you talking about who "didn't finish grade school"? Many of the New Thought founders are also quite well-educated.

3. You keep making reference to "errors" in the New Thought philosophy, as if that's objective when it is simply your opinion. I have repeatedly asked for examples and substantiation, and all you do is repeat that the system is based on errors. That's circular; it's not an argument. It's also confusing your opinion with objective facts. That's the mark of an ideologue.

You say that "cults" have "moved in" on the movement. Now, my experience with New Thought is probably longer and certainly more current than yours, and I have never seen this. Repeating it does not make it so. Show me the evidence.

BTW, Christian Science is not New Thought, although some CS are reaching out to the New Thought movement because tehy are being made increasingly uncomfortable with some of the CS teachings and Mother Church is not responding to their views. (In fact, it is trying to make sure their veiws don't get too widespread.)

However, CS is one of the roots -- not the root, but one of them -- of the New Thought movement. But the New Thought movement has gone far beyond where Mary Baker Eddy dared to go.

Timmer:

What is your purpose posting here?

Your posts are essentially "circular" and offer no facts (scientific evidence) to support your claims of cures and healings.

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Recorded accounts by the people involved of the healings that they have had, which is dismissed as invalid evidence by the "Establishment" for whatever reason.

"Establishement" seems to be your euphemism for established facts supported by objective evidence and subsequently the scientific "establishment."

You keep chanting the same mantra with nothing new to offer, but your opinions posted, which are becoming quite repetitive, don't represent a dialog or an exchange of ideas.

If you don't have any substance to support your claims through scientifically proven facts why not just admit that candidly and move one.

Christian Science has a deeply troulbed history through needless deaths and recent court defeats.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And so-called "New Thought people" often offer unsupported theories, anecdotal stories and subjective claims without any basis in reality. And you have certainly not demonstrated otherwise on this board.

Believe what you want, but be honest about it.

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that term "brainwashed" is very pejorative, and I suspect deliberately so. People who sincerely follow a philosophy are not necessarily or even usually brainwahed; they just like the ideas presented.

Hardly.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This term is quite defined and specific. Read the research of Robert Jay Lifton and Margaret Singer and be better informed before making such statements.

Are you trying to say that the followers of Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson and Shoko Asahara "just liked the ideas presented" and did whatever they did without undue influence?

Again, believe whatever you want, but don't try to deny that it is a subjective belief without any basis in fact. And your subjective experience doesn't make it otherwise.

This is a MUST read!!
You will laugh so hard tears will stream from your eyes!

Hopefully Rick Ross will add this link to his CS page!!

[www.gutenberg.org]

Christian Science, by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)



This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.net

From CS by Mark Twain

[www.gutenberg.org]

CHAPTER VII

"We consciously declare that Science and Health, with Key to the
Scriptures, was foretold, as well as its author, Mary Baker Eddy, in
Revelation x. She is the 'mighty angel,' or God's highest thought to
this age (verse 1), giving us the spiritual interpretation of the Bible
in the 'little book open' (verse 2). Thus we prove that Christian
Science is the second coming of Christ-Truth-Spirit."--Lecture by Dr.
George Tomkins, D.D. C.S.

There you have it in plain speech. She is the mighty angel; she is the
divinely and officially sent bearer of God's highest thought. For the
present, she brings the Second Advent. We must expect that before she
has been in her grave fifty years she will be regarded by her following
as having been herself the Second Advent. She is already worshiped, and
we must expect this feeling to spread, territorially, and also to deepen
in intensity.

Particularly after her death; for then, as any one can foresee,
Eddy-Worship will be taught in the Sunday-schools and pulpits of the
cult. Already whatever she puts her trade-mark on, though it be only a
memorial-spoon, is holy and is eagerly and gratefully bought by the
disciple, and becomes a fetish in his house. I say bought, for the
Boston Christian-Science Trust gives nothing away; everything it has is
for sale. And the terms are cash; and not only cash, but cash in
advance. Its god is Mrs. Eddy first, then the Dollar. Not a spiritual
Dollar, but a real one. From end to end of the Christian Science
literature not a single (material) thing in the world is conceded to be
real, except the Dollar. But all through and through its advertisements
that reality is eagerly and persistently recognized.

The Dollar is hunted down in all sorts of ways; the Christian-Science
Mother-Church and Bargain-Counter in Boston peddles all kinds of
spiritual wares to the faithful, and always on the one condition--cash,
cash in advance. The Angel of the Apocalypse could not go there and get
a copy of his own pirated book on credit. Many, many precious Christian
Science things are to be had there for cash: Bible Lessons; Church
Manual; C. S. Hymnal; History of the building of the Mother-Church; lot
of Sermons; Communion Hymn, "Saw Ye My Saviour," by Mrs. Eddy, half a
dollar a copy, "words used by special permission of Mrs. Eddy." Also we
have Mrs. Eddy's and the Angel's little Blue-Annex in eight styles of
binding at eight kinds of war-prices; among these a sweet thing in
"levant, divinity circuit, leather lined to edge, round corners, gold
edge, silk sewed, each, prepaid, $6," and if you take a million you get
them a shilling cheaper--that is to say, "prepaid, $5.75." Also we have
Mrs. Eddy's Miscellaneous Writings, at 'andsome big prices, the
divinity-circuit style heading the exertions, shilling discount where
you take an edition Next comes Christ and Christmas, by the fertile Mrs.
Eddy--a poem--would God I could see it!--price $3, cash in advance.
Then follow five more books by Mrs. Eddy, at highwayman's rates, some of
them in "leatherette covers," some of them in "pebble cloth," with
divinity-circuit, compensation-balance, twin-screw, and the other modern
improvements; and at the same bargain-counter can be had The Christian
Science Journal.

Christian-Science literary discharges are a monopoly of the Mother-Church
Headquarters Factory in Boston; none genuine without the trade-mark of
the Trust. You must apply there and not elsewhere.

One hundred dollars for it. And I have a case among my statistics where
the student had a three weeks' course and paid three hundred for it.

The Trust does love the Dollar, when it isn't a spiritual one.

In order to force the sale of Mrs Eddy's Bible-Annex, no healer,
Metaphysical-College-bred or other, is allowed to practice the game
unless he possesses a copy of that book. That means a large and
constantly augmenting income for the Trust. No C.S. family would
consider itself loyal or pious or pain-proof without an Annex or two in
the house. That means an income for the Trust, in the near future, of
millions; not thousands-millions a year.

No member, young or old, of a branch Christian-Scientist church can
acquire and retain membership in the Mother-Church unless he pay
"capitation tax" (of "not less than a dollar," say the By-Laws) to the
Boston Trust every year. That means an income for the Trust, in the near
future, of--let us venture to say--millions more per year.