Peacebstill, You act as if I am some huge Calvary supporter. I follow Christ, not a church. I am not part of Calvary Chapel. I have stated that I visited and it was not for me. The reason it was not for me was because of many things you stated, starbucks, light show, and just plain showmanship worship ext. All I said was I listen to some of the pastors on the radio and everything that I have heard them preach was biblical and spot on IMO. I do not like churches that spend allot of money on stuff that is luxury items. Don' talk to me like I am some naive brainwashed person. I know the bible and what I believe. I do not disagree with you on anything you have stated in the message above, If the accusations are true.

seymour:

You do seem somewhat naive and/or ignorant.

Deacons, elders etc. can be handpicked by an authoritarian pastor, or there can be democratic church government as mandated by a constitution with bylaws providing for regular elections.

The general membership votes for a board or elders to fixed terms by secret ballot.

The board or elders control the money, determine the budget, salaries and can discipline and need be fire the pastor.

This is the way the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches work.

Most Protestant churches likewise have educational standards that require a pastor to be a college graduate from an accredited college or university and often to attend a seminary for post-graduate instruction.

In this way churches can be sure they have knowledgeable and tested pastors that know the bible.

Calvary Chapels typically have none of the above.

Seymour, my utmost apologies, for it wasn't my intention to offend you, or to cause you think that I believe you to be brainwashed or any other such thing! Forgive me for causing you such distress. As for the accusations so stated, I wouldn't dare but to speak the truth. This is something I take very seriously, even because it is a most serious matter when one comes up against a church that is supposed to represent Jesus Christ! I seek God's face in all of these matters, discerning truths as best I can, as well as I search His word and mountains of evidences and supports, and I dare to speak only when all possible means of excusing have been exhausted, and even then fall flat on my face even begging God to reveal to me where I might be in error. And please understand that I am not saying all Calvary Chapels are bad. I've only been to a handful, and unfortunately it always seems that though they start out small and true to the Word they eventually get all caught up in the fanfare, fame, power and glory. The larger they are, it just seems to me, the farther away from the truth they become, and the more empowered they believe themselves to be, and the more power and control and authority they seek.


Simply, and most humbly,
Peace

You are still missing my point, may be I am ignorant because I do not know all about how Calvary is structured. My point was from preaching the word of god I have heard nothing non biblical in the messages I have listened to. I was also under the impression that there pastors were indeed educated and all have gone through seminary. If they are indeed uneducated and have not been through seminary I have been misinformed. I still will listen to KWAVE because I have not heard anything that makes me have concern in the messages. There are a lot of Calvary Chapels that differ from one another and to say they are all cults based on the way that they are structured is completely nonsense. If you don't like how a church operates don't go, leave, find one that fits you and you agree with. The rock and roll show, Starbucks and the other stuff that I don't like there are people who are into that kind of thing and that style of worship and it reaches out to some non christians. Who are you to tell a church how to spend its money. Why don't you complain about all the money that the Chatholic church spends on there lavish churches, Jews and there temples.

seymour:

This thread isn't about the Catholic Church or Jews, it's about Calvary Chapel.

Attempting to shift the focus to other groups isn't a meaningful way to address the serious problems at Calvary.

You don't seem to know much of anything about Calvary, i.e. how it works or is "structured."

Most people know in some detail how their church is structured.

You assume Calvary pastors have attended seminary, but offer no proof through objective evidence, i.e. by citing names of pastors and the seminaries they attended.

You don't seem to offer much of anything on this thread, other than your anecdotal stories and subjective experience to apologize for Calvary.

Seymour, again, my apologies. As I read back through your posts, it became clear that the reason you don't know much about Calvary is because, unlike some of us, you haven't attended with any real regularity, or for a long enough period of time to have noticed, or to have become so rather victimized. This isn't ignorance, it's a mere lack of experience. As for the matter of the ordination of the pastorate, no, they do not attend seminary. They attend Calvary Chapel Bible College and then are "ordained" by Calvary Chapel pastors, by the "laying on of hands", as I understand it. The prerequisite courses in Biblical studies can be done through correspondence, as well as to attend the numerous CCBCs some of which are housed on church grounds. The primary text books from which they learn their theology were written, for the most part, by Chuck Smith (ie: Calvary Chapel Distinctives). And no man becomes a Calvary pastor but that he agrees with the doctrines and theologies of Chuck Smith and again goes through the ceremony of the laying on of hands. It would be most interesting to know if a man ordained by Calvary Chapel would be hired, as a pastor, of a well established Protestant/Denominational church, considering the lack of a more formal course of study and ordination.

Now, of course, there are some pastors who have been recruited/hired by Calvary who have been to seminary and who were, previously, ordained pastors of other churches/denominations. And once again, no one is saying that all Calvary Chapels are bad churches. That the churches, among themselves, so oftentimes disagree and there is much squabbling between them, is proof enough of that. In the here and now, and due to several controversial issues that are occurring involving the larger Calvary and it's head pastor, quite a few once faithful attendees are seeking and recommending, other Calvary's.

No one is asking, nor so much as suggesting that you stop listening to KWAVE, nor to the teachings of Calvary Chapel pastors. You've already stated that you know the Bible so it would go without saying that you would be discerning truth from untruths and seeking the evidences for the same from the Scriptures. God knows that I thought, for years, that what I was hearing was Biblical. I mean, it was sooo close, and sounded so good, and so uplifted my soul, that I never really sought to compare what was being preached with the written word. I just took it for granted that the pastor was a true man of God and that his word, rather interpretation of the word, was true and correct. And when I did, again, as during a Bible study, it was oftentimes so close so as not to be considered an incorrect teaching, just a questionable one that didn't really need an explanation or an answer, for as the pastor and so many teachers so oftentimes said, "You don't have to understand it. Just believe it! That, in and of itself wreaked havoc with what the Bible says about God doesn't give us a spirit of confusion. He wants us to know and to understand. He makes that point quite clear, throughout all of Scripture, "Shall I keep it from my servant, that which I am about to do?" Has He kept anything from us, to include His blood on the cross? I began to question and felt guilty for doing so, for surely to question the teachings of the pastorate was blasphemy! Or so it is said, which goes right along with never question the pastor, NEVER TOUCH, QUESTION, DOUBT GOD'S ANOINTED, and I just accepted that, and for another few years.

I've already mentioned this once, and will again ... some four years ago, or so, now, I sat in the audience listening, wrenching -- WRENCHING -- way down deep, clear through to my marrow, to hear the pastor and to see him with such a smirk on his face as he addressed the men in the audience telling them that all they had to do to get their wives "in the mood" was to get down on their knees and pray (or pretend to) and my soul SCREAMED!!!!! It hurts me to my core to this very day to so much as think about it -- and how it was that this world renowned pastor had turned something as holy as prayer into little more than a sex toy, and before a crowd of more than 3000. I began to pay attention. I began to pour over Scripture. I began to pray hard, and the scales fell off of my eyes and I began to see truth and that just sickened me further! In sermon after sermon after sermon it became painfully clear to me that though it all sounded real good and though it all had a close resemblance to Scripture, so much of it wasn't Scriptural and it wasn't truth, and I began to question, to do that which the Bible tells me I am to do, test the spirits, ask the questions, hold accountable, and more than a few close to the pastorate with whom I had been friends, began to treat me as though I were a mere stranger, and worse, rather than to have addressed the issues. Though some like me just kept scrambling after God's truth. I suffer this on a daily basis, as my beloved daughter (an adult now, though barely) is caught up in the church and the teaching, and how could she not be? It's where she was raised. It makes no sense to her that after all these years, and after all of the support and respect I once had for the church, I don't anymore. The only sense she makes of it is that I must be a backslider, according to those in the church to whom she shares her concerns, and over the fact that I no longer attend as well as I have dared to question. It's difficult.

You say, Seymour, that what you hear preached, on the radio is the truth. Are you sure? I thought so too, once. And surely, there is truth taught, but not all of it is. There's a big controversy going on now over the pastor's attempt to grasp the attention of some university students by posting on campus a flyer that read, "DID JESUS HAVE SEX?" I've followed that one closely, and have suffered right along with those who were so terribly offended. Those who really know Christ, and would never belittle Him in such a manner. A dedicated servant of Christ was fired from his position at Calvary Chapel for questioning the content of the flyer, which the pastor has since attempted to excuse by saying that he was simply trying to settle the matter over the DiVinci Code as well as to shed some light on the matter of the ossuary of James, of too many years ago to be remembered, and which was, in truth, of no interest to the students at the university. You might have insight enough to continue to trust a man who would so flagrantly blaspheme Christ, but I don't. This same pastor, more recently than that, addressed a large audience of young people by telling them, "Just admit your sin and be saved." Just admit your sin. That's all you need do. Is that Biblical? Is that what gets you saved, your admission of sin? It frightens me that so many would believe and follow him and adhere themselves to such erroneous teachings, and go on to believe they are actually saved because he said they are, and because they are a part of so much that looks so good and feels so good and seems so good. It frightens me to see what I have come to deem the monster of Calvary Chapel grow larger and larger, and the larger it gets, the more the truth seems compromised, and the more who look to the pastor as their Lord and Savior rather than Yahushua Messiah/Jesus Christ! I can see that quite clearly, now. He tells them what to do. He tells them what to think, feel, believe. He holds himself up as the divine authority and fires anyone who would question him and his intentions. There have been a few.

Be careful, Seymour. That's all I'm saying. Be sure you are seeing clearly and hearing correctly. I'm merely questioning you, not accusing you, Seymour.

"For they are ever perceiving but never seeing. Ever listening but never hearing. Lest they would see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn and I would heal them."

It gives me NO pleasure to say these things. No pleasure at all, for I would but that the truth of God and of Christ His Sacrifice, would always be told.

Simply,
me

Peacebstill, Thank you for explaining things. I agree with you and see exactly what you are saying. On the context of the flyer, If that was just the question on the flyer to get people interested and then settle the question with the truth I see no wrong with that if that was what it is. If I saw a flyer that said ,Did Jesus have sex? I as a believer who knows the truth would not waste my time reading such a thing. But a person who does not know might read it and then get the biblical point of view. I am not trying to argue just offer an opinion. I also don't like the fact, if it is true, that if a pastor does not see eye to eye with chuck that they are shunned. I would need to hear the message about the sex thing to form an opinion because allot of things taken out of context can sound horrible when in reality they are not. Agin Peacebstill I am not trying to belittle your experience or discredit you I am just stating an other option or possibility. Thank you for all the information and I am always careful. I question my own pastor and sometimes disagree, but if I heard something that made me uneasy or upset my spirt I would ask my pastor to clearify what he said and what he meant. If I still was not happy and my spirt was still upset I would leave very fast. I also have noticed how much some churches change when they grow large and suddenly have goals that were not part of there plan when they started. Once again I see where you are coming from and I am just offering another possibility, that's all I can do without hearing the messages that you are talking about or attending Calvary for over a period of time. Thank you.

O, Seymour. You still don't get it, do you? It's not so much what the flyer said -- it was the effort by the church to capture the minds of a particular audience by using those things predetermined to be of utmost importance to the same audience, and no matter how belittling that was to the name of Christ. Sex and food. Or did I fail to mention that the very same flyer offered free lunches to the first 100? It's all about capture and control, Seymour. Capture and control.

Hi!

This is my first post here. I had heard about Calvary Chapel even visited one on a couple of different occasions (back in the 90's), but never really taken time to think about my experience there back then.

I just moved to Florida and started visiting a local CC church. The few Sundays that I visited it I kept thinking to myself "Something is missing here". This is what I observed. You are mostly greeted by the greeters at the door and the leadership. The rest of the congregation seems to be ignorant of the visitors or newcomers. The 10-11 times I visited it, I heard the name Chuck Smith about 5 times. This past Sunday, when I heard it again, I had this chill going through my soul. The pastor's teaching overall is good, but I again something seems to be missing in it. I can't even pinpoint what.

I came home after the service yesterday and emailed the pastor my observations. I know my email will upset him, but I just had to do it. Also, I decided to stop attending it. Thank you for the thoughts you guys have shared here. Now I am more than ever convinced that I have been sensing the right things all along.

I worked with Calvary Chapel, Fort Lauderdale for 2 years. I worked with the Youth Pastor and got to know the inner workings of Calvary Chapel. They are a fine organization until you get deep inside its structured environment. Calvary Chapel is big on accountability. They do hold people accountable for their actions. I had known of someone that failed to repent of open sin. Calvary sent him packing. My question is: If there is no membership at Calvary Chapel (which there is) then how can you ex-communicate someone for moral failure?
Calvary Chapel has a rotating door policy. You’re free to come and free to leave. I made a lot of friends at Calvary Chapel and in a way it was the best time of my life. There are many fine people in that organization who do a great job keeping the wheels turning.
I left Calvary Chapel, Fort Lauderdale because I did not agree with their stance on certain doctrinal issues.
When I left Calvary Chapel all communication with friends I knew there ceased. It was as if I was no long one of them. One friend that I close to, who taught the men’s bible study, suddenly treated me as a person that had gone astray and needed to repent. I never went astray, just started working for another church and could not attend any longer.

Calvary Chapel is big on attacking those who don’t agree with their doctrinal values.
CC believes you can lose your salvation. Works is a big part of their focus. If you are not involved in some sort of CC related ministry, your heart is not right. I know Bob Coy is a smart and morally upright man, that point you cannot argue. He just repeats what Chuck Smith has taught for years. So if you want to know what Bob Coy believes, just stay home and buy all of Chuck Smith’s teachings on CD.

Calvary Chapel’s inner circle is very complex and controlling. First and foremost you must be accountable. They believe you must confess all past sins in order to get right with God and continue to confess to your accountability partner.

They have what I call, a few troubled individuals that are in the counseling ministry. One man very close to Bob is a little on the bleeding edge of accountability. So much so I would classify him as a control freak with some emotional issues.

Next, once you really get inside the inner circle, you are required to learn the gifts. I’ll leave it at that because; like I said it is a very complex organization. CC has people in positions of authority, who control the day to day operations of its corporate structure.