On the back of that :)

Fair comments, however... who appoints a Church of England vicar? Can a congragation dismiss a vicar? Does a church of england church not have a church council who are 'controlled' by the vicar? I cannot see how this system differs from mainstream churches?

Yes, I agree the financial side of things should be more accountable however since our Pastor has gone part time in his job etc he is living a far lower standard of living than you would expect if he ws fleecing the system.

If you take the time to read the articles at the database archived about Mitchell and his Christian Fellowship churches, pastors such as Paul Campo, Harold Kern and Mitchell are hardly struggling financially.

The 10% you admit goes up the pyramid, which ultimately benefits and is controlled by Mitchell and his gang, can be seen as a form of church multi-level marketing.

This is not like the Church of England, unless you think Mitchell is the "Queen."

But you have made a valid point.

Christian Fellowship Churches is unlike the overwhelming majority of Protestant denominations, which came after the "Reformation."

Instead, it has all the problems and corresponding issues of a clergy-run church, much like the Roman Catholic Church, which Mitchell rants against.

Mitchell can be seen as something like a "pope," though no one ever elected him.

And the authority of the fellowship is either to be obeyed, or you can vote with your feet and walk out.

In fairness, there is far more open dialog and meaningful transparency regarding the financces of the Church of England, than Mitchell and his cronies allow within their churches.

For example, Episcopal Churches in the US have elected boards, officers and control the membership controls budgets and fund-raising.

Mitchell would never allow that kind of power sharing.

Yes, I can see what you mean regarding the control of finances. The overall say so of how money is spent, for example on redecorating or equipment etc is controlled by the Pastor and his wife.
As for the 10% going to the head church, I am pretty sure the Church of England and the Methodist churches, for example, pay an amount to their 'regional' head churches. Not sure why that is or what the money is used for though :)

On another note though, I can't say as I have had much of a problem with the preaching from the pulpit though. Occasionally there is a visiting Pastor who may say something dumb or invent something to get a point over but I am one who researches and studies the word of God for myself and I don't usually take things at face value.

If you don't mind a church run by leaders that have no meaningful accountability to the general membership that's your choice to make.

I receive regular complaints about the bad behavior of Christian Fellowship Church pastors.

There are probably more former than current members, given all the defections and church splits.

Mitchell has been criticized by Christians in the US and Christian Fellowship Churches has caused numerous divorces and custody battles.

I don't receive any similar complaints about the Church of England or Episcopal Church in the US.

I must admit that I do often wonder why the church never seems to grow. We get many people in but then just as many leave after a short while.

I will say though that if things are getting 'funky' in the church then I will be the first out the door. :)

I will definately stay around on the forum though and maybe shed some light on things for you and vice versa.

Sadly that's the only way people can effectively change the churches under Mitchell control, is to leave them.

My experience with complaints about Mitchell began during the 1980s in Arizona, where the whole thing started.

There are a number of threads that focus on Wayman Mitchell and his Christian Fellowship Churches, which includes "Potter's House," "The Door," "Praise Chapel," "Victory Chapel" and various other names.

See the following threads:

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

[board.culteducation.com]

I am a former member of the Potters House U.K and a former lay preacher there. As I have been there for many years let me make a few things clear.

1 - The Walthamstow church was founded in 1986 by an Australian by the name of Peter Beyerman. In the time he was there the church grew to around 400. For the last four years of his tenure he conducted an adulterous affair with a woman in the congregation. He was alos fleecing the church of funds and beating his wife. The manner of his removal was alos highly controversial as Mitchell lied about it and the news of his affair was already spreading through the church.
2 - David Vicary was imposed on that church despite the fact that he was running a tiny struggling church in Bury St Edmunds. Vicary has also been accused of using church funds as a private source of interest free loans for property investment.
3- During the first U.K conference in 1993 the Preacher {Hank Houghton} ordered the ushers to guard the door so that nobody could leave as he was angry at the size of the offering. He demanded that people give more before he let them go. The ushers actaully obeyed him!
4 - During a conferece I attended in the mid nineties we were told in no uncertain terms that there was not enough money coming in and that if we did not give more at that conference the next one would be cancelled because the Walthamstow church would not be able to host it. This was an outright lie. Within two years Vicary tried to purchase a large former cinema near to Walthamstow market but was blocked by the local authority on grounds of noise pollution {It's in a residential area} Where did the large amount of money neccessary suddenly appear from to make this deal?
5 - During the nineties the pioneer churches were told that they had to tithe from their gross income despite the fact that they are registered charities and can claim the tax back from the government. Why were we told that we must tithe the full amount or be guilty of robbing God and go to hell? Isn't this fraudulant.
6 - The Walthamstow church at present brings in well in excess of £1million a year but has never given it's pioneer pastors a living wage. They claim to have spent a large amount of money supporting pioneer churches but most survive on around £6,000 to £8,000 a year and they coem under heavy pressure to come off support. The amount Walthamstow spend on pioneer churches is minimal compared to what they collect. Still struggling pioneer churches that desperately need people in them are denied the opportunity of a full time pastor/evangelist because the mother church won't pay these men a wage.
7 - 40% of all indiginously planted U.K Potters House churches have either closed down or left the fellowship. This is an appauling attrition rate.
8 - The agreed upon method for handling complaints was circumvented in dealing with Jon Spurgeon which along with unfounded allegations led to his decision to pull his church from the fellowship in 2003. Walthamstow opened up a rival church down the road to steal members from them.
9- Marty Carnighe after making criticisms of leader Wayman Mitchell suddenly found himself out of the position of pastor of the South London church and forced to become an evangelist. People were lied to about his wifes apparent sickness and this used as a cover for the Carnighe's departure for the States. Peter Ajala then began a cull of all who were suspected of being loyal to Carnighe and many left the church including some bible study leaders.
10 - Evangelist Ernie Toppin was once pastor of the church in Northampton and through a series of disgusting and unethical events managed to get money out of the church. {In my view under duress} He deliberately lied to people in order to do this.

I have much information on the goings on in the U.K Potters House. On the surface everything looks fine but underneath there is much corruption and croneyism. The attempts to look accountable and democratic are really only window dressing. If anyone want s to know more about the goings on there you can visit my website on the following link.

[www.habakkuk2-4.com]

or you can visit the U.K run message board which reports on the fellowship which can be found on the following link.

[groups.yahoo.com]

I've preached in this fellowship and played a significant part in it for many years. I have not reached this position lightly. I believe that what I'm doing is right in the sight of God and that these abuses and corruptions must be dealt with. As the fellowship clearly has no intention of doing so then I must expose what is going on publically.

God bless you...naboth675

I have examined a few things in depth and am wary of the heavy handed approach , the free availability of illegal computer software passed between Pastors, the use of church funds for extravagent purchases that do not benefit the church...my mind is working overtime.

You should also be aware that today in the streets surrounding the Potters House in Walthamstow two men who were putting up posters critical of the fellowship were confronted, threatened and chased.

One of these men was slightly injured in making his escape. One of the men involved in this highly controversial action was assistant pastor Jimmy Robinson. Nigel Brown, the senior pastor, pulled up to one of them in his car screaming abuse. One of the protesters was also chased down and held against his will even though he protested several times that they had no legal right to hold him as this constitutes assault.

I can understand why people would not like criticism of their church but the response sounds extreme and more in line with local gangs than born again believers.

regards...naboth675

ps : Information on the issue that kicked off these events {ie: questioning the earnings of pastor Nigel Brown} can be viewed by looking at the U.K charities commission records for the Potters House Walthamstow. These records are freely available to view on the charities commision site. Brown is on over £50,000 a year and possibly £100,000.

regards...naboth675