Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
Uywhan
()
Date: April 10, 2006 08:34PM
Hi Truth Seeker,
I am currently a member of CFM which of course you would know, is another fellowship under the same umbrella of the Door and others.
I am not writing this to ridicule your thoughts or opinions. I am merely going to share my experiences and hope you would respect my point of view.
See, although I am a member of CFM, I use to go to Potter’s House as well. I stayed with Potter’s House for five years during my teen’s but chose to leave for many reasons. See, I must admit right now that I probably wasn’t the most ‘holiest’ of Christians, yet I held a very prominent position in the church. Actually I didn’t know the actual significance of it until I left.
I was 14 when I first started to sing on stage for the Church and finished up when I left. Not many of my brothers and sisters thought I had any right to be up there and as I thought about that year’s later, I believed that they were right. But, GOD gave me a role and being that young, obedience was a natural progression for me. See, why I’m writing all this is because over the five years I was there, I saw my Pastor become a very strict man. One, whom you didn’t question, one you didn’t protest against. I guess at the same time I had this belief that unless you were ‘holy enough’ you couldn’t really have an opinion because nobody would hear you anyway. Or they would question your walk in Jesus.
Anyway, although I wasn’t ‘holy’, I knew who GOD was, I knew his awesome power and there were times I would sit in the pew, listening to our Pastor speak about certain things and know without a doubt that he was wrong. Because I’m based in New Zealand, our Pastor asked for a lot of drama’s that centered around my culture, because he believed they needed to be saved (as all cultures) but our culture (Maori) are prominent here in NZ. Most of the dramas were very surreal, heart-wrenching, yet had the wrong impact on people's lives. Yes, tell people they were going to hell and all.
To cut the story short, because I could go for ages, my Pastor was arrogant. Please people, don’t get me wrong. I obeyed my Pastor and all those who carried leadership roles within the church. And, I didn’t know all these things about my Pastor until they had splits occur in the Church. How did I find out? My brother was still saved when it happened.
In those times (back in the 90’s) GOD was clearing out a lot of the bad things that were happening in Churches worldwide. Our church got affected by it. And now that I hear the stories of it, the simple plain truth was – our Pastor backslid. Pure and simple.
Now that I am with CFM, believe it or not, all of us came from Potter’s House. Although I have only been with my church for less than 4 months, the Pastor, his wife, my brothers and sisters in Christ, all came from that one Potter’s House. And from what I’ve been told now, they pretty much went thru hell and back to get to where they are now. They had to change dramatically. Individually and as a Church. They had to change what had happened to them in Potter’s House and I believe all our churches went through it all. From NZ to America. Our Pastor (who is not the old one) and the church and all of our fellow churches here in NZ had to start again although to be quite honest, I'm not too sure other's were affected. They had to learn to be compassionate, liberal, giving and have a genuine love for unsaved, backsliden and saved people. I am not trying to justify what has happened to you or anybody else but change will always occur. I cannot defend every church belonging to the same as mine but do you ever remember making a mistake and having to take responsibility for it? Yes well, our old Pastor didn’t. Our new Pastor did. My brothers and sisters in GOD had to as well.
We all make mistakes Truth Seeker, even in our personal lives. Unfortunately, all of us tend to forget Pastors and Leaders are only human too even if they do hold an upright position. I actually read in the bible before I entered this site that God told us to obey those he puts in leadership, even when we think they are wrong, because GOD will have his way with them. And, my Pastor always encourages me to read my bible for answers if I don’t understand things or question certain ideas he may have. When I look back at the whole situation now, I think about how great GOD is that he gave us his Word, the Spirit of Truth. It’s a hard walk the Christian walk and yes, sometimes we tend to forget about our salvation, our personal lives and concentrate too much on the Work of GOD, which all in all, requires balance. Because all of us have been affected (in my church), we are never turned away if we have something to question. Whether it’s something the Pastor has said or somebody else, we’ve been taught (and with GOD’s grace and meditating with him) that it’s not wrong to do this you know? We’re not turned away anymore like how we use to be. Maybe that's what everyone needs to remind themselves of including myself.
I am glad I got to read your query because it encourages me to continue in the Walk of GOD with faith. Faith to believe in his Word and faith in GOD himself. Thank you for your time. You know Truth Seeker, the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. May GOD bless you! :)
I am currently a member of CFM which of course you would know, is another fellowship under the same umbrella of the Door and others.
I am not writing this to ridicule your thoughts or opinions. I am merely going to share my experiences and hope you would respect my point of view.
See, although I am a member of CFM, I use to go to Potter’s House as well. I stayed with Potter’s House for five years during my teen’s but chose to leave for many reasons. See, I must admit right now that I probably wasn’t the most ‘holiest’ of Christians, yet I held a very prominent position in the church. Actually I didn’t know the actual significance of it until I left.
I was 14 when I first started to sing on stage for the Church and finished up when I left. Not many of my brothers and sisters thought I had any right to be up there and as I thought about that year’s later, I believed that they were right. But, GOD gave me a role and being that young, obedience was a natural progression for me. See, why I’m writing all this is because over the five years I was there, I saw my Pastor become a very strict man. One, whom you didn’t question, one you didn’t protest against. I guess at the same time I had this belief that unless you were ‘holy enough’ you couldn’t really have an opinion because nobody would hear you anyway. Or they would question your walk in Jesus.
Anyway, although I wasn’t ‘holy’, I knew who GOD was, I knew his awesome power and there were times I would sit in the pew, listening to our Pastor speak about certain things and know without a doubt that he was wrong. Because I’m based in New Zealand, our Pastor asked for a lot of drama’s that centered around my culture, because he believed they needed to be saved (as all cultures) but our culture (Maori) are prominent here in NZ. Most of the dramas were very surreal, heart-wrenching, yet had the wrong impact on people's lives. Yes, tell people they were going to hell and all.
To cut the story short, because I could go for ages, my Pastor was arrogant. Please people, don’t get me wrong. I obeyed my Pastor and all those who carried leadership roles within the church. And, I didn’t know all these things about my Pastor until they had splits occur in the Church. How did I find out? My brother was still saved when it happened.
In those times (back in the 90’s) GOD was clearing out a lot of the bad things that were happening in Churches worldwide. Our church got affected by it. And now that I hear the stories of it, the simple plain truth was – our Pastor backslid. Pure and simple.
Now that I am with CFM, believe it or not, all of us came from Potter’s House. Although I have only been with my church for less than 4 months, the Pastor, his wife, my brothers and sisters in Christ, all came from that one Potter’s House. And from what I’ve been told now, they pretty much went thru hell and back to get to where they are now. They had to change dramatically. Individually and as a Church. They had to change what had happened to them in Potter’s House and I believe all our churches went through it all. From NZ to America. Our Pastor (who is not the old one) and the church and all of our fellow churches here in NZ had to start again although to be quite honest, I'm not too sure other's were affected. They had to learn to be compassionate, liberal, giving and have a genuine love for unsaved, backsliden and saved people. I am not trying to justify what has happened to you or anybody else but change will always occur. I cannot defend every church belonging to the same as mine but do you ever remember making a mistake and having to take responsibility for it? Yes well, our old Pastor didn’t. Our new Pastor did. My brothers and sisters in GOD had to as well.
We all make mistakes Truth Seeker, even in our personal lives. Unfortunately, all of us tend to forget Pastors and Leaders are only human too even if they do hold an upright position. I actually read in the bible before I entered this site that God told us to obey those he puts in leadership, even when we think they are wrong, because GOD will have his way with them. And, my Pastor always encourages me to read my bible for answers if I don’t understand things or question certain ideas he may have. When I look back at the whole situation now, I think about how great GOD is that he gave us his Word, the Spirit of Truth. It’s a hard walk the Christian walk and yes, sometimes we tend to forget about our salvation, our personal lives and concentrate too much on the Work of GOD, which all in all, requires balance. Because all of us have been affected (in my church), we are never turned away if we have something to question. Whether it’s something the Pastor has said or somebody else, we’ve been taught (and with GOD’s grace and meditating with him) that it’s not wrong to do this you know? We’re not turned away anymore like how we use to be. Maybe that's what everyone needs to remind themselves of including myself.
I am glad I got to read your query because it encourages me to continue in the Walk of GOD with faith. Faith to believe in his Word and faith in GOD himself. Thank you for your time. You know Truth Seeker, the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. May GOD bless you! :)
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
A Truth Seeker
()
Date: April 18, 2006 02:02AM
Quote
Uywhan
We all make mistakes Truth Seeker, even in our personal lives. Unfortunately, all of us tend to forget Pastors and Leaders are only human too even if they do hold an upright position. I actually read in the bible before I entered this site that God told us to obey those he puts in leadership, even when we think they are wrong, because GOD will have his way with them. And, my Pastor always encourages me to read my bible for answers if I don’t understand things or question certain ideas he may have. When I look back at the whole situation now, I think about how great GOD is that he gave us his Word, the Spirit of Truth. It’s a hard walk the Christian walk and yes, sometimes we tend to forget about our salvation, our personal lives and concentrate too much on the Work of GOD, which all in all, requires balance. Because all of us have been affected (in my church), we are never turned away if we have something to question. Whether it’s something the Pastor has said or somebody else, we’ve been taught (and with GOD’s grace and meditating with him) that it’s not wrong to do this you know? We’re not turned away anymore like how we use to be. Maybe that's what everyone needs to remind themselves of including myself.
quote]
Hi U,
This paragraph popped out to me.
Are you trying to tell us that you must continue submit to your pastor even if he is wrong or in sin?
So, if your pastor decides to murder someone, he still should be regarded as a pastor and you should still submit to him? I know it sounds extreme, but your statement bears this out.
And to think that you are suppose to let "God will have his way them" is to me a cop out.
It is quite disturbing you think this way.
A Truth Seeker
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
A Truth Seeker
()
Date: April 18, 2006 03:41PM
Quote
BurningBush
I'll state first thing that my experience contradicts all that is being said. I attend The Door Christian Center in Fairfield CA. They are very passionate about people's salvation. We outreach most Saturday's and give our testimonies to all (believers & non-believers) In no shape or form have I seen scare tactics being utilized at any of these events. If telling people that salvation comes through our Lord Jesus Christ and denying him will result in an undesirable outcome are we lying? Are we using scare tactics or are we stating the "TRUTH" as stated in our Bible. Now, I am not doubting peoples experience at other affiliated churches. However, most of your forum(s) state that this network of churches is evil or very distorted. If that is the truth then I haven't seen it. Programming or Deprogramming doesn't mean anything. Either way you look at it it is forcing one to believe other than what they already believe in. Wouldn't deprogramming also constitute as a form of programming. Shouldn't we call it "reprogramming" instead? We also have to take into accountability the mental capacity of many of the offended family members and disassociated members. The Bible constantly calls on discipline of its people and structure with in the Body of Christ. I read earlier of a 14 year old boy who gave up drugs for his church (Potter's House). Now his mother wants him deprogrammed. Please make me understand this? I can't help but laugh at the irony of that story. For those that left the church I understand that they fully believe in their cause for parting their ways with the church but whatever happened with loyalty to those above them. The same mentality for the lack of loyalty to structure will result in the same situation elsewhere. Just like divorce, if you divorce your first wife the chances of your 2nd marriage ending in the same result rises twice as much. I believe its only fair to state the other side of this conflict.
Joseph
Parishioner of the Door Christian Center - Fairfield CA
Hello Joseph,
I find your comment about "lack of loyalty to structure" is quite an arrogant statement to make. Are you trying to infer that the structure is always right and never to be questioned? Then you make the analogy of someone who leaves CFM is like having a "divorce". This is so judgemental! Maybe you should study the history of your founder, Wayman Mitchell and learn about his divorce from his leadership, the Foursquare Gospel Church. Why did he not stay committed to his headship? You know Joseph, you sound just like Rob Scribner, he dished out the same stuff and it made no logical or spiritual sense. It was all about control and manipulation to keep people in the church.
Not everyone who leaves CFM is a pervert, adulterer, or rebels. Christian believers want pastors who are faithful to Bible and it's teachings. They don't want to be used, abused and emotionally raped. That is why people leave CFM and find healthy churches to walk out their spiritual life.
A Truth Seeker
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
Uywhan
()
Date: April 18, 2006 06:25PM
Hi Truth Seeker,
Not at all! I hope and pray that [b:e601bb2004][i:e601bb2004]that[/i:e601bb2004][/b:e601bb2004]would never happen! No, I merely pointed out that our Pastor got what he deserved and he will be judged on Judgement Day for all the hurts and destructiveness he caused through his arrogance.
What I am saying is that our relationship with GOD is what matters most. Although we are given Pastors to oversee us, to help guide us, we should always question the things we don't understand and I know that the decision you have made to leave the church was for the interest of your own salvation and that's awesome to know that at that time, you made a choice that you knew GOD wanted you to make and honoured you for that.
I didn't mean for you to read so much into this, but my quote you have used is actually based on my current Pastor. My former Pastor caused alot of grief and despair for fellow church members that most of them, if not all, have turned away from GOD because of the confusion they felt when all those things occurred.
My new Pastor is a man who encourages us to question things we donot understand and I hope that you donot take offence to my reply as I didn't mean to cause this on you.
Not at all! I hope and pray that [b:e601bb2004][i:e601bb2004]that[/i:e601bb2004][/b:e601bb2004]would never happen! No, I merely pointed out that our Pastor got what he deserved and he will be judged on Judgement Day for all the hurts and destructiveness he caused through his arrogance.
What I am saying is that our relationship with GOD is what matters most. Although we are given Pastors to oversee us, to help guide us, we should always question the things we don't understand and I know that the decision you have made to leave the church was for the interest of your own salvation and that's awesome to know that at that time, you made a choice that you knew GOD wanted you to make and honoured you for that.
I didn't mean for you to read so much into this, but my quote you have used is actually based on my current Pastor. My former Pastor caused alot of grief and despair for fellow church members that most of them, if not all, have turned away from GOD because of the confusion they felt when all those things occurred.
My new Pastor is a man who encourages us to question things we donot understand and I hope that you donot take offence to my reply as I didn't mean to cause this on you.
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 18, 2006 07:37PM
Without meaningful accountability to the congregation through democratic church government bad behavior often occurs.
The more layers of accountability and democratic process there is, the safer a congregation typically is.
This includes democratically elected church boards that can discipline and if necessary fire a pastor for bad conduct. Such a board would also set his or her salary and compensation.
Elected denominational leaders through delegates sent to conferences typically helps to hold the denomination accountable to the churches.
Denominational accredited education and seminary requirements for pastors seems to prevent problems.
Financial transparency through annually audited and published budgets that reflect all monies paid out such as salaries and any expenses or compensation.
Without safeguards like this church members have no meaningful structure or bylaws to guarantee anything.
Simply saying "God will hold them accountable" is not enough. And the bible provides basic guidelines for accountability (deacons, elders and evenagleists) that can be expanded upon to meet modern concerns today.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The more layers of accountability and democratic process there is, the safer a congregation typically is.
This includes democratically elected church boards that can discipline and if necessary fire a pastor for bad conduct. Such a board would also set his or her salary and compensation.
Elected denominational leaders through delegates sent to conferences typically helps to hold the denomination accountable to the churches.
Denominational accredited education and seminary requirements for pastors seems to prevent problems.
Financial transparency through annually audited and published budgets that reflect all monies paid out such as salaries and any expenses or compensation.
Without safeguards like this church members have no meaningful structure or bylaws to guarantee anything.
Simply saying "God will hold them accountable" is not enough. And the bible provides basic guidelines for accountability (deacons, elders and evenagleists) that can be expanded upon to meet modern concerns today.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
A Truth Seeker
()
Date: April 19, 2006 01:08AM
Quote
Uywhan
Hi Truth Seeker,
Not at all! I hope and pray that [b:2b51f25f41][i:2b51f25f41]that[/i:2b51f25f41][/b:2b51f25f41]would never happen! No, I merely pointed out that our Pastor got what he deserved and he will be judged on Judgement Day for all the hurts and destructiveness he caused through his arrogance.
What I am saying is that our relationship with GOD is what matters most. Although we are given Pastors to oversee us, to help guide us, we should always question the things we don't understand and I know that the decision you have made to leave the church was for the interest of your own salvation and that's awesome to know that at that time, you made a choice that you knew GOD wanted you to make and honoured you for that.
I didn't mean for you to read so much into this, but my quote you have used is actually based on my current Pastor. My former Pastor caused alot of grief and despair for fellow church members that most of them, if not all, have turned away from GOD because of the confusion they felt when all those things occurred.
My new Pastor is a man who encourages us to question things we donot understand and I hope that you donot take offence to my reply as I didn't mean to cause this on you.
Hi U,
Thank you for clarifying what you mean.
However, CFM teaches that if you are not in a good relationship with your pastor, then you have no relationship with God. This along with the CFM teaching of staying in the church where your salvation occured is also controlling factor that is put upon the people. I have seen good people preached against for desiring to move to another city to make a carreer change or be closer to their children. They were even told if they leave the church, they would lose their destiny.
The centrality of the relationship was not based upon on God, but upon the pastor/church.
In my former church, every major move in a person's life had to go through the approval of the pastor. One instance that I saw, was so hideous. A faithful church member who tithed, outreached, brought visitors to revivals, then when he decided to move his family to be closer to his parents, be ripped up accross the pulpit.
CFM pastors stick their noses into other peoples lives where they don't belong. CFM has revived the old legalistic and heretical shepherding doctrines of the 70's. The deny it, but if you study what happen back then, they say and do the same things. It is so terrible to see what these teachings/practices do to good Christians who just want to serve their Lord.
Lastly, you said that your formerly pastor turned many people away from God. Where is this man now? Is he still pastoring? Did he get publicly rebuke when he was removed from the pulpit? Did anyone go out and try to restore relationship with those he had hurt? I was just wondering about that.
A Truth Seeker
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
A Truth Seeker
()
Date: April 19, 2006 01:15AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Without meaningful accountability to the congregation through democratic church government bad behavior often occurs.
The more layers of accountability and democratic process there is, the safer a congregation typically is.
This includes democratically elected church boards that can discipline and if necessary fire a pastor for bad conduct. Such a board would also set his or her salary and compensation.
Elected denominational leaders through delegates sent to conferences typically helps to hold the denomination accountable to the churches.
Denominational accredited education and seminary requirements for pastors seems to prevent problems.
Financial transparency through annually audited and published budgets that reflect all monies paid out such as salaries and any expenses or compensation.
Without safeguards like this church members have no meaningful structure or bylaws to guarantee anything.
Simply saying "God will hold them accountable" is not enough. And the bible provides basic guidelines for accountability (deacons, elders and evenagleists) that can be expanded upon to meet modern concerns today.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Very good Mr. Ross!
In my former church, accountability was only a one way street. You need to submit to them. They could not be questioned. But when one peels away the haze of "God's headship" and sees the reality that the pastor had no Bible college education, no counselling education and the structure of the church was a nepotistic monoarchy, one can begin to understand why abuse occurs.
Like you said, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
A Truth Seeker
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 19, 2006 01:49AM
The major Baptist denominations, Assemblies of God, Evangelical Free Church, Nazarenes and others seem to have get this and have substantial layers of accountability.
No organization is perfect and there are still problems, but many large evangelical denominations recognize the need for accountability, financial transparency and an accredited education for their clergy.
No organization is perfect and there are still problems, but many large evangelical denominations recognize the need for accountability, financial transparency and an accredited education for their clergy.
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
A Truth Seeker
()
Date: April 19, 2006 05:04AM
Quote
rrmoderator
The major Baptist denominations, Assemblies of God, Evangelical Free Church, Nazarenes and others seem to have get this and have substantial layers of accountability.
No organization is perfect and there are still problems, but many large evangelical denominations recognize the need for accountability, financial transparency and an accredited education for their clergy.
Mr. Ross,
Another warning light to me was the condemnation of higher learning.
One of the most suprising things that I heard come out of mouth of Scribner was his mocking of those who desired to go to Bible seminary. When he bring the subject up he would conveniently make the slip of the tongue and call it Bible "cemetery". The message was clear, you don't go there because they are dead and they will kill your fire. All you need is here in the church.
It became sorefully apparent the longer I stayed in the church how much the pastor was a Bible illiterate. Yet, he claim to know all the answers and what people should do with their lives.
Very frightening!
A Truth Seeker
Wayman Mitchell Influences My Former Church
Posted by:
A Truth Seeker
()
Date: April 21, 2006 10:56AM
Hello All,
I found this post today while searching through this message board.
[board.culteducation.com]
Another vicitim of The Lighthouse Church.
A Truth Seeker
I found this post today while searching through this message board.
[board.culteducation.com]
Another vicitim of The Lighthouse Church.
A Truth Seeker
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