Hi there, greetings in the name of Jesus and greetings in the power of Jesus' blood that is shed at the CROSS for your sins and my sins.

thank you for your kind advice and words of caution. I do understand where you are coming from. Corporate Governance, transparency, accountability etc etc etc. I do understand your concerns about cults and the dangers involved.

Those scandalous corrupted men (mostly Amercans, I noted) are well publicised and well known, they are simply perverting Jesus' Grace for their own monetary benefits and sexual sins. Hipocrites. Greedy men. Sinful men. Fake pastors. False teachings.

I am sure God will punish them.
Jesus will punish them.
God's wrath will be worst than terrible!


Anyway, do you know of any churches in Auckland's Pakuranga, Howick and Botany area ( or nearby) who would meet my requirements and also meet your standard?

Most Christians today are not stupid, we are very aware of pastors and their short-comings....( Nonetheless, I still want to listen to speakers who are charismatwic and interesting and inspiring and up-lifting AND most important of all, draw the strong pulpit message from relevant verses in the BIBLE). I reiterate, we are not stupid, we Christians will know in our own spirit that we have to TEST the pastor's message, test the spirit of his message and the spirit of the church he leads....is Jesus and the Gospel the centre piece? The pillars of the church?

Or is the church centred around ONE man....the pastor?
Is the pastor and his team always asking for money?
How did the pastor and his family live their lives?
Are they surrounding themselves with material luxury? Big cars, flashy houses, rolex watches, gucci bags, designer perfumes, luxury, new clothes all the time, expensive lifestyle etc etc etc...gold chains.....pastors have mistresses? Weakness for attractive females?
Words do get around......


Men are weak and sinful....greedy for money and personal benefits etc etc....the flesh is weak and sinful...stealing money from others...using other people's time and effort and labour for their own ego and glory.

However, We who are Christians, must look to Jesus for Strength and wisdom. WISDOM. Jesus is REAL...HE will speak to us and tell us when "things" are not right with God....it is whether we are willing to listen and obey...or not...
Discerning spirit....be Alert.
Be wary of men's deception and sweet words.....men's actions speak louder than words.
Pastors are nothing but mere men....human beings.

So don't expect them to be perfect and all Godly.
They can't....simply because of their sinful nature...this apply not only to the pastors, the church leaders, the church workers but this also apply to YOU and ME.

Pastors are attacked by Satan all the time.....especially when they are succeeding in winning souls for Christ., especially mega churches....
So if YOU are a Christian, you have to be aware whether you are helping Satan or you are working for Jesus.

Do YOU pray to JESUS earnestly and fast over this concern about cults and false teachings? .....Do you pray for all these churches and their pastors who are featured here in your forum?
Jesus is real. Jesus is powerful. He is wise. He hears your prayers.
He will intercede for YOU and close down those churches who are not truly JESUS' church.


All Christians who go to church to worship God, to worship Jesus.....must test the spirit of the church....tithes and money are only the symptons.....find out what are the roots...what is the heart of the church and its leaders.
Do not be deceived by sweet words which may be convincing on the surface.
Actions are louder than words. Consistent actions.


Being a christian is our own personal relationship with Jesus. Rely on our own reading of the Bible. Rely on the Holy Spirit living in each and every Christian.

DO Not depend on a church only......church is made by men and men are sinful.

There is NO perfect church....every church has its own short-fall and sins.
Every church has its problems and challenges.
There is NO one church which will suit everyone.

So, back to my original question....do you know of a church in Auckland's Pakuranga, Howick, Botany areas or nearby which would meet my requirement and your standard?

Thank you once again for this forum and your advice.

Shalom!

WeAreChristians:

If you are looking for a new church in your area you can easily check to see if it has meaningful safeguards regarding governance through its bylaws and meaningful financial transparency and demonstrated by an independently audited budget.

It's up to you and not my responsibility.

The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches have such safeguards. It is likely there are many churches that have such important safeguards in your area.

There is no perfect person and no perfect church, that's why such safeguards are necessary.

You seem to be talking in circles and attempting to evade the issue of meaningful accountability.

Either a church has such safeguards or it doesn't and it's a simple "test" to determine this.

If you are in a church and there is no regular election of church board members to fixed terms it doesn't have democratic governance.

If you donate to a church and don't receive an annual budget that is independently audited, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds, then it doesn't have meaningful financial transparency.

You are right, "most Christians today are not stupid" and can easily understand this.

Does "Impact Church" have these safeguards?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2013 10:38PM by rrmoderator.

Hi rrmoderator,

Such financial reporting and so called "meaningful accountability" are INSUFFICIENT.

There are too many loopholes, too many ways to hide, too many opportunities for dishonesty, fudging numbers....Enron, Lehman Brothers, AIG and many other publicly listed corporations are prime examples.
Moreover, there are many ways to manipulate the Board and its election. You see such manipulation and deception in the corporations, in commercial entities.

Once you have sinful greedy men in position of power, "Men made mechanism, Men made processes, Men made reporting" could NOT stop them.
May slow them but can't stop them.

Anyway, Church is not a commercial entity.
Church is a spiritual entity.
Church exists because of God, because of Jesus and His Blood shed on the Cross for your sins and my sins.
God's grace and mercy. God's Love.
The head of a church is Jesus...not the pastors, not the church leaders, not the board.

Therefore, What is needed is Divine oversight and alert Christians....Christians walking closely with Jesus, personal relationship with Jesus.
Proverb 3.

Financial reporting and all the other safe-guards you mentioned are insufficient.
I am not talking in circles or attempting to evade the issue of meaningful accountability

There are always "tell tale signs" when a church, pastors and church leaders are not right with God.

If City Impact Church is Not doing God's Work, Jesus will close it down.
However, if this Church is doing God's Work, winning souls, spreading Jesus' Gospel, then Jesus will grow the Church and bless the Church.

WeAreChristians:

You are talking in circles again without answering directly.

I take it from your evasions that Impact is a dictatorship with no democratically elected leadership and therefore no meaningful accountability concerning its leaders.

You also offer nothing regarding any meaningful financial transparency at Impact, so that means the membership has no real understanding how church funds are handled in any detail.

Impact leaders can do what they want and no one in the congregation can do anything about it other than walk out. That is, "vote with their feet".

Thankfully the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches are not run this way and congregants can be protected through meaningful safeguards.

"If City Impact Church is Not doing God's Work, Jesus will close it down"?

Paul told Christians to obey civil authority (Romans 13:1) and Jesus said, " “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s" (Mark 12:17). So if a church isn't following the law the authorities may bring it down.

Paul told the Galatians they had been "bewitched" by bad leaders (Galatians 3:1). He sought to bring those leaders down and condemned them. He didn't wait for Jesus to do it. Paul understood that it was his Christian responsibility to begin the process himself by speaking out. Simply waiting for Jesus to close a church down is not what the New Testament teaches. Believers can hold leaders accountable such as deacons and elders according the guidelines set in the New Testament (1Timothy 3:2-8, Titus 1:6-8).

You have attempted to ignore what the New Testament actually teaches regarding leadership and the democratic checks and balances most Protestant churches have implemented to enforce such accountability.

Your posts make Impact seem like a deeply troubled church without any meaningful safeguards to protect its general membership. And you seem to be defending the kind of absolute power that Martin Luther rebelled against, which began the Protestant Reformation.

Is Impact leadership somehow infallible like a Roman Catholic Pope? Do you believe in a kind of papacy at your church that cannot be disputed?

Perhaps you wish to ignore these issues, but it is easily understandable why many people would not ignore this and instead seek a safer church.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2013 09:56PM by rrmoderator.

An old thread, but still it has recent additions.

I was a member of City Impact back in the early 90s when it was still known as Bay’s Christian Fellowship. I loved the church. Best one I’d ever been to and thought Peter Mortlock was a powerful and inspired pastor. He knew my name, but back then the congregation wasn’t as huge.

Now I look back on it without the rose-coloured glasses I do have my doubts about the Mortlock’s sincerity. I know they are great supporters of Brian Tamaki and I remember even back then before Tamaki founded Destiny Church, him being the guest speaker on the odd occasion. Guilty by association?

Even back then the Mortlocks drove around in flash cars, but people always pointed out it was because he was wealthy before he became a pastor. Others say God has blessed him, but the money is clearly not coming from God, but from the people in the church. I look at the church now and see just what a huge flash organization it has become and wonder why there is so much extravagance when so much of that money would be better off used in other areas rather than building flash buildings, using state of the art technology and making the office areas luxurious.

Myself and my wife were always valued there although there were always people in leadership there ready to pull you back to correct you if they thought you weren’t heading along the path they wanted, but then again leadership I think are supposed to do that.

I sometimes think… are the Mortlocks simply in it for the money and the power? After all it’s been said that the way to make a fortune is start your own religion. So the Mortlocks have started an empire within the confines of a religion already established. The same principles apply.

There is only one story I can tell that still makes me scratch my head and wonder if perhaps they could be conning their congregation….

Back in the early 90s, one of their teenaged sons got up one day in front of the church and all teary eyed admitted that he’d fallen morally. He never said what it was, but he apologized to the church and his family. I think most of us were scratching our head wondering what the hell he was talking about, but at the same time having some idea… after all he was a teenaged boy. But for a kid like that to get up in front of the church to admit such a thing was bizarre. What did it have to do with any of us at all? It seemed totally inappropriate to me, that his parents made his air his dirty laundry out in public. A harsh way to treat your child.

Anyway after that, Peter Mortlock got up himself and went on to imply that himself and his wife, had somehow failed as parents and were resigning as pastors of the church. At the time it seemed like a real act of humility on behalf of them. Myself and my wife even wrote a letter to them saying that we didn’t want them to resign.

About a week or so later they were back up the front again thanking everybody for their support and all the letters they’d received insisting that they stay on as senior pastors. They of course remained on.

But you know, in hindsight, I wonder just how sincere it all was. Being a little cynical I can’t help but wonder whether it was a big orchestration to manipulate the congregation… perhaps just to see who their keenest supporters were or to make themselves look like wonderful Christians and leaders in the eyes of their congregation. To show us how dedicated they were to surveying the church. I really don’t believe they had any intentions of resigning and they knew they had plenty of solid support. Seriously do they really think that anyone would blame them for their teenaged sons overactive hormones??

{Shrugs} I don’t know if makes them con-artists or whether the church is a cult. I just couldn’t say.

This is exactly what happens when you try to put old wine into new wineskins. Mixing law and Grace doesn't work - it will always produce a self consciousness of sin and keep you in bondage - this is what Jesus died for, freedom from bondage. We are supposed to be Jesus conscious not self conscious. Unfortunately City Impact Church keeps people in bondage by keeping them focussed on their shortcomings instead on Jesus' victory. They do not believe that the Grace of Jesus Christ is enough to keep people - they do not trust Jesus! Jesus set us free - yet there are still people who are trying to keep the law - they don't get that they will NEVER be able to keep it and that Jesus was the only one who could. How arrogant!

The law is supposed to show you that you CAN'T keep the law......it can't justify you nor make you righteous. The law was for the purpose of bringing man to the end of himself and to show man that he needs a saviour! That saviour is Jesus. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - we are free not by OUR performance, but by HIS sacrifice. There should also be no more consciousness of sin. At some point the church needs to move onto meat, these are milk issues keeping them babies and stopping them from growing.

Once convinced, thank you for sharing

One thing that sticks in my mind was one day in church, round about the time of parachute music festival. Many of the young ones had gone down for the weekend and had not come back for sunday services. Peter Mortlock got up and preached a thundering sermon, including lambasting these kids who hadnt come back for church

"You need to be under the word of God on a sunday"

I'm sitting there thinking "hang on, its a christian music festival and isnt the sunday at parachute like one big church service" it became quickly apparent what he was actually meaning was "you need to be under the word of god on a sunday, as preached by me"

The congregation were 'preach it, tell it pastor'


One other, I think the cynics call it mystical manipulation. Its where a pastor uses conficdential information as a god given word of knoweldge to manipulate people. People say that peter Mortlock is gifted in words of knowledge. He was only gifted in words of knowledge because he had such a good informant network. The contents of pastoral care sessions would become the topic of senior pastors meetings.

Yes, that's a great point. He has a lot of loyal yes-men there and the cell group system is a great way to get information up to the top. I was involved in leadership there for a short while and have been at other churches too. Important information definitely makes its way up the ladder in any such organisation.

City Impact Church, like many other churches is very personality based. If Peter and Bev were to step down, I believe the numbers of people would drop drastically. I've seen that in other churches too when a popular pastor has stood down. On the very odd occassion the opposite happens. That tells me that church attendance is more based on how inspiring and charasmatic the pastor is, not whether God is working there or not.

I have trolled this thread foa long time now and it's interesting to see some new posts coming up.

Many years ago I attended a service or two at City Impact Church but I never felt comfortable. More recently, a very dear school friend has gotten herself and her family quite involved there. It worries me to see her under the leadership of Peter Mortlock because his over-powering tithing messages and the sheer scale of the financial side of that church concern me.

When I read the posts here and on Cultwatch.com describing what to look out for in a super-apostle and/or destructive churches, all I see is images of City Impact in my head.

There isn't much information about them out there to find though. This thread has been a great source and I do hope to be contacted by some of you because I would like to learn more of your stories about what it's really like there. Another good source was a Blog I found a long time ago but haven't looked at recently (I hope it's still there) by someone that went by the name of Exwitchnz or similar. I recall thinking she/he might be wizeone from this thread. Ifit is you, please get in touch. I would really like to use some of your material on a blog that I have started to expose the church a little their members, in the hopes that I can get my friends attention with a few questions she should ask herself.

Of course, anyone who does comunicate with me about this church does so in strict confidence. I myself really don't know what the leaders there are capable of and worry about being identified. What would the do to my fiend or me? How could they break her/us spiritually or worse?

Any help that you can provide to help me get my friend out of there would be greatly appreciated.

Ruth
nztruth.wordpress.com

Sorry, my link should point to nztruthblog.wordpress.com

I always get that wrong.