Frank Sumatra,

Reading between the lines of your posts tells me that many cfm pastors joined praise chapel and continued for some time in their abusive and destructive ways. Shouldn't praise chapel have some sort of "Re-habilitation" plan or Accountability for these pastors to keep them from abusing their flock while their under the banner of PC. It sounds to me like a cfm pastor my join PC and abuse their church for as long as it takes to get CFM out of their system. This could last 5-10 years. Meanwhile how many hundreds or possibly thousands will be wrecked while we wait for this pastor to get his head together. This is where their needs to be "accountability."

Unfortunately there is no level of accountablility in regards to any part of the PC system. The finances are a big mystery to everyone. The open books policy that many churches have to show that they are not hiding anything in regards to finances would never happen at praise chapel. They do not want to show any form accountablility in terms of their finances.

In terms of pastoral accountability, bottom line is there isn't any. Pastors do what ever they want to do. They don't answer to anyone. They don't have any type of formal education or preparation. There is no one to talk to if there is a major issue in the church. These pastors will do counseling without a license and completely rely on "personal experience" alone.

Frank:

It seems to me that PC has had a reputation as being a cult for a very long time. In the four years that I count in attendance at Praise Chapel, I recall the pastor making mention of this many, many times. However he would make a mockery of it, and give the implication that being in a cult included candles, a guru, and black-hooded robes… then he'd laugh out loud and scoff. (Always encouraging others to laugh in agreement with him.) He would call other churches cults, and name other religions as cults, (such as Buddhists, or Jehovah's Witness) and would make comparisons that, "we are not like them."

That caused me to wonder quite a bit, as to why he would even bring that subject up during sermons in the first place? And why bring it up repeatedly? Unless, as I've now come to realize, that he wanted the members thinking in the direction he wanted them to, and so members could have a readily available answer and explanation available if anyone ever questioned or encountered the mention of PC being a cult. Later on, I found that to be true, with members of other churches in the community describing it as such.

Praise Chapel may have broken away from affiliation with CFM, but it seems that with regard to association only. The style of church it is, the structure, and the methods that they use are strikingly similar to the Potter's House. In most cases identical. I think that the only difference between the two are that PC makes efforts to be more subtle and more low key about cult-like activity than at Potter's House.

As far as the atmosphere you mentioned Frank, here is my experience. When I first started attending PC, it seemed like the greatest place on earth. I was love-bombed from the minute I walked in the door, and that continued for about the first six months or so that I was there. For about the first year that I attended, absolutely no one could have possibly convinced me that it wasn't the greatest church that I'd ever encountered. As time went on though, I began to get the feeling that things didn't seem right. Since they keep you so busy at PC with all their activities: "serving God," I didn't have much time to stop and think about subtle little manipulations that were going on.

Going to church at Praise Chapel did not just mean being in church on Sunday Frank. It meant being in attendance for Sunday morning service and Sunday evening service if scheduled, and any other Sunday activity they had planned after service like fellowships, etc. Monday evenings were reserved for prayer meetings, and a short sermon or bible study. Tuesdays you were expected to be in attendance of Discipleship classes held by the pastor, and all the men were required to go. The women had similar classes under a different name, usually held by the pastor's wife. Wednesday of course was mid-week evening service, which began at 7 PM and could run as late as 10:00 PM or even later. Thursdays were usually reserved for practice of plays or skits, sometimes pot lucks, sometimes other forms of fellowships. Friday evenings were either an event called "Friday Night Live," or Bible Study. Saturday mornings were usually the days they had Outreach, or fund raisers.

They'd keep you so busy that you really don't have time for anything else, (certainly not even for family or friends) which is just another one of several methods they use to keep you under their control and deviate your attention away from their cult nature.

Of course, they always mentioned attendance of all of this was not mandatory… but if you didn't go to all this stuff they'd start to put pressure on you. Either by calling you in for counseling, and implying that "you weren't right with God," or that "you are not moving in the direction that God wants you to go," or "you're hindering what God wants to do in your life," or "God wants to bless you greatly but you're not allowing Him to do so".. etc.

After six months the love bombing stopped and then you were expected to be in a ministry or some sort, or part of leadership. As for me, I was in leadership. Note that you could not be counted as worthy or remain in leadership unless you gave your entire week and pretty much all of your time for church. This is where the guilt-tripping came into play, if you didn't comply with what they wanted of you. If you agreed with everything you pastor said, and did everything they asked you to do, then the love bombing resumed and pastor would usually bring you before the congregation and exalt you before others. If you didn't, then he would prepare sermons about "rebelliousness" and embarrass you before the congregation… more guilt tripping. He would also put members of leadership on you, to "counsel you" and to make sure that you comply with the pastor's desires.

Also note that they would make efforts to keep you isolated, not only by taking up most of your time, but keep you alienated from family and friends who were not members of your church. They'd refer to them always in a negative light, as your "unsaved" family and friends. They implied heavily that it was up to you to get these people into your church. If not, they would remain unsaved, in the world, and of course doomed.

What you describe sounds exactly like cfm.

I'm wondering what is the general attitude in Praise Chapel about higher education? Are congregants encouraged to go to college and get a degree or is it mocked and ridiculed?

[b:849a0273ee][i:849a0273ee]"What you describe sounds exactly like cfm."[/i:849a0273ee][/b:849a0273ee]

I think you can take the Praise Chapel out of the CFM but it appears that you cannot take the CFM out of Praise Chapel. These are things about Praise Chapel that they don’t want people to know. Rather than taking efforts to correct the problems, which as you already indicated could take up to 15 years or so, they would rather put forth great efforts to conceal, put spin on, divert attention, or attempt to confuse persons with regard to what actually takes place there. Or, if someone comes on to criticize and mention the qualifiers that reveal what a big-time cult PC is, they do their best to try and shut the person up and/or intimidate them. There is absolutely nothing honest about that at all. Sound like Potter’s House or one of the several CFM affiliates? Praise Chapel doesn’t appear to be the slightest bit interested in changing their ways from the structure and methods established by Wayman Mitchell, but rather they would prefer to hide that fact than admit to anything. After all, the system seems to work for them.

I think if anyone were to take an in-depth look at Potter’s House or CFM, one will find the similarities quite revealing. Better still is for one who’s been in a CFM to take a look at Praise Chapel and certain themes keep popping up over and over.

Among several things I’ve noticed about Praise Chapel, one is their determination to distance themselves from their origins with Wayman Mitchell and Potter’s House (who created this whole mess to begin with). They claim to be different. They claim they have no associations with CFM (which does appear to be true since the split took place,) yet pretty much their structure, methodology, style, and doctrine appear nearly identical. When one of their churches is pointed out as unquestionably being a cult, again they attempt to distance themselves from that fact, and allege none of their other churches are like that. Yet the same hostility, attitudes, and theme and doctrines remain. They even make efforts to distance themselves from the mother church, who apparently is in charge of their 175 or so-called subordinate churches. Notice when similarities between CFM and PC are pointed out, they jump on the bandwagon and shout, “unfair” from the rooftops. What could be more fair than merely pointing out the truth?

A question I have is about the financing and the “Mother Church.” At the PC Churches I’ve been, they claim that their books are open for anyone to come and see at anytime. Yet, I’ve noticed that at least one time when I observed a member asking to see the books, numerous excuses were provided as to why they could not “see the books at that time.” Later on, the same is accused of “not having faith,” or untrusting. Just where does the money go? The 10% tithes paid by the membership, the so-called “love offerings,” the money asked to be given for this or that ministry, donation, etc.. the list goes on and on. Like beliveGod mentioned, it remains a big mystery. Does a percentage go to the mother church? I’ve heard it can be as much as 5%. What exactly is a mother church anyway? Apparently one church that “gives birth” to another church, the previous one is named as the mother church of that new church. All the time I was at PC, it was said time and again that the mother church was in Huntington Park. Now I’ve heard recently that the main church which has authority over all the PC’s is the one in Rancho Cucamonga. Whatever the case may be, certainly it does appear as a pyramid scheme.

[i:849a0273ee][b:849a0273ee]"I'm wondering what is the general attitude in Praise Chapel about higher education? Are congregants encouraged to go to college and get a degree or is it mocked and ridiculed?"[/b:849a0273ee][/i:849a0273ee]

In my experience at PC, very little was said about gaining higher education, as it was never encouraged, but neither can I say was it discouraged... More so was finding employment and staying employed, or seeking a better job was the emphasis, with a very heavy hand by PC upon tithing. I’ve never heard anyone in PC mock or ridicule anyone looking toward college or getting a degree. They did however mock bible colleges, and persons interested in seeking a full knowledge of the bible. Such persons they would label “theologians,” putting the term in a negative light and negative connotation to the definition. Kind of like another PC Buzz word. The way I interpreted this attitude, was that PC pastors seem to feel threatened or intimidated by persons with more than average knowledge of scripture.

It was further expressed that no one outside of Praise Chapel has the ability to teach or interpret the bible. Of course, their methodology or learning the bible is through discipleship classes given by the pastor, or their version of bible study given by the pastor. For only he (a PC pastor) has the ability and/or knowledge to interpret and teach the bible properly. (According to them.) This is how PC pastors are “hand-crafted” by the way, as apparently their contention is the exact same as CFM. Note that at Praise Chapel, bible colleges are deemed useless and a waste of time. Persons who become PC pastors are hand-crafted by becoming more or less clones of the pastor who mentored them.

They did make some pretty bizarre and extreme mockeries that I recall however, such as keeping a bank account, saving money for a rainy day, or even paying your rent. All of these were heavily discouraged. Why? Because at PC tithes come first and foremost. If you paid your rent before you paid your tithes, you were made out to be one as “having no faith,” “out of God’s will,” or “hindering (preventing) God from blessing you.” Scripture was used against keeping banking or savings accounts, such as taking Matthew 6:20 out of context, by indicating that it is more important to give all your money to the church than to save. It was heavily implied that on earth we have no need for or use of money, and all should be given to God by means of giving to “your” church. That way, God will take care of you and you will never have any want or need. And all I can say about this is that they have some pretty lame excuses as to why they have to hide their books and financial records if everything they do is from God.

A quick question about CFM that I would like to know… Where did spiritually anointed, or “specially anointed” come from? Is it originally from Wayman Mitchell and Potter’s House? Did any CFM pastors that you know of claim to be specially anointed? This was something big-time at Praise Chapel. Problem is they would hint at being specially anointed by God, but never could say who it was that specially anointed them, nor how this process or coronation, or whatever it is actually takes place. Not unlike their financial dealings, this was kept in secret as well.

Also a question for believeGod, did any of the PC pastors you met ever claim to have the gift of prophesy, and if so, did they prophesize over believers during a service? Could you elaborate a little more on actually prophesy and its meaning besides what PC claims it is?

Correction on my last question was for "worshipGod" not believeGod as I erroniously indicated. Sorry.

Let's face it. Some people like to go to church where they are told what to do and what not to do. They need to be managed. They can't exist unless they are micro-managed.

Some see these kind of churches as an opportunity to get their upward mobility going because they don't have a chance anywhere else to succeed. So what do they do? They move right in with the yes-man mentality and dot all their i's and cross all their t's. They echo everything the pastor says and basically become his clone which is a no brainer that person is set to become a suit in time. They know the drill going in and on their first day in the church could probably hand pick a team to replicate with. The poor saps on the pews haven't a clue because like a medicine show scenario they preach a little Gospel and sell a couple bottles of Dr. Good. Just like the song, "Gyspies, tramps and thieves"! This is what keeps cults going. It takes people who want to be lead around on a short leash by the people who feel entitled to do so. Perhaps the majority on both sides of the issue have the best intentions and act out of the deepest sincerity. That doesn't change the fact that the road to hell is paved with the best intentions by people who are sincere. Sadly many do not understand that being a Christian or being a Godly person has nothing to do with a mere mortal man or a building or an organization, whether one joins any or all of them to become a follower or a leader. God hasn't 'ordained' either side of the issue. Suffice it to say that people have bent the Hebrews text regarding "forsaking not the assembing of yourselves together" to suit their own purposes in order to keep the church doors open just like any other business. God never intended for His house to be reduced to a business of any kind. Check out the Gospels acount of Jesus throwing the money-changers out of the temple after sitting on curb so to speak, braiding a cord, premeditating his actions before he barged in and threw them and their swap-meet atmosphere out into the streets. I doubt that Jesus would be welcome in the majority of Christian churches in this day and age. Likely he would not be recognized at all. We have it all wrong folks. Somewhere the church became a building instead of a body of believers whose core beliefs were the teachings of Jesus. Now we have the teachings of men that supercede all that went before. Oh they still quote the scriptures, when it's convenient and when it's expedient but when it comes down to teaching the truth, well, that'll have to wait.

Frank Sumatra:

You should also factor in the people who are manipulated and deceived.

Many people don't fully realize how a group is really run and what its ultimate expectations may be when they first become involved.

It is very rare that people knowingly join a "cult."

Instead, there is the element of deception and recruitment and retention of members is often something like a con game.

People can be taken in.

For example, people are taken in by "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves" to "sell a couple bottles of Dr. Good," which is the old snakeoil con. And in the song the pitch begins with "preach a little Gospel."

Sadly, there a unethical destructive churches that use the Gospel to sell whatever they want to exploit people.

Well, that goes without saying or else we wouldn't be here. I was just saying that [i:5f548b8941]some[/i:5f548b8941] people... and they are just part of the group who are being maniupated and deceived.

I wouldn't even begin to categorize all the people sitting in the pews of any given cult. Some of the finest Christians I have ever known are people who were once part of CFM - some in leadership as pastors and quite a few were just ordinary "Mary's and Joe's" whose only desire was to live for God. To a person these people did it and still are doing it without putting a religous trip on anyone. Also I am sure that some people go to church just to go along for the ride. They're spectators. In the past I am sure I have been one of those people. It's about fitting in. I never felt I fit in at a lot of churches I went to.

It's an amazing thing to me how a church can be so alienating and yet they supposedly have this agenda to get everyone in the gates of Heaven when in fact a lot of them the real agenda they have is to separate people from their hard earned money - bottom line. They do it by heaping guilt trip upon guilt trip and by demanding loyalty at the threat of becoming apostate and unredeemable if the person doesn't comply with leadership who is ultimately portrayed as God's man of the hour in the what's shakin' now arena.

I know a lot of well meaning people who are real Christians who have been used and abused by cults such as CFM and other 'movements' (that's funny... at the risk of being lewd, I had a 'movement' this AM. How fitting to call these so-called cutting edge ministries, 'movements'!) that are really renegade churches and ministries who answer to nobody!

I warned one family who were being sought after in a church I had once been a part of. They were being pursued for the purposes of "serving God" and the promise that their's was a higher calling. These poor folks are wonderful people and REAL Christians, the kind I would trust with just about anything. They were pretty well to do and very giving both of their time and money. They were grateful to God (and still are!) and willing to do what they could for the 'cause', which meant getting involved in any door that God might open, or in this case, the pastor of this church. He saw them as available and made use of that. Why did I warn them? Because I myself had been warned about things going on in that church by a former associate pastor and had personally seen things that were way whacked to say the least! For one thing the church was a revolving door for people in so called ministry to appear and disappear without so much as a word as to why they came or why they suddenly left. The tone of the place was this aura of, "Don't ask questions or you will be asked to leave." Then there was the hired help at the church. In the old days when the church was small the secretarial chores were taken care of by the pastors wife until her children demanded too much of her attention. Then ladies in the church volunteered to assist until the church got so big they had to have someone full time 5 days a week. The wife of this family was asked to become the new secretary after the previous one left. The husband was asked to take care of the sound board during services and make tapes for those who wanted them. They said they would pray about making such a commitment. I am sure they did. But they did ask me why I had reservations about being involved there and why I had left. I told them why and I warned them about the level of commitment which they had been offered. I basically told them if they felt God wanted them there, that was fine, but they had both better watch their backs. They dove in and did what was needed and I never heard much about them until a year or so down the road I heard they had suddely pulled their family out of the church and had gone off the radar. An informed source close to them, who was a mutual friend let me know that I was right because things had went sour. The reason was that the pastor had doctored the books in regards to offerings taken for a parking lot project, which the secretary noticed right off since taking care of the bookeeping was part of her duties as church secretary. He had moved funds from that account set aside for the parking lot to another unspecified account. In other words the money disappeared and the books were altered to look like the money had never came in or else had been spent when in fact it had not. Felling it was a mistake she called the pastor into her office and asked him point blank about the situation, which he blew off as unimprtant and assured her not to worry about it. She insisted it was important because what had occurred reflected on her since she was in charge of taking care of the books. He told her it was none of her business, which she stood up and told him in no uncertain terms that what he had done was dishonest and illegal, as well as sinful. The pastor then told her, "Your services are no longer required. You're fired. Pack up your desk right now and I want you off church property immediately. You and your husband are no longer welcome at this church and neither are your kids. Take your family to some other church and don't come bac!"

I don't know what else was said, but I do know this much: Neither her or her husband wanted to talk about it. They were extremely quiet about the matter. It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots and surmise that she was also told if they made a stink about it that he would bring charges against her for fraudulent bookkeeping. I know in my heart this is why she has refused to comment and I KNOW she would never lift a penny let alone alter a figure in the church bookkeeping register. I do know that this pastor has had continued problems in this area thereafter as well as before. I met one family who had once been in the inner circle there who had mysteriously gotten fired. They took the books with them when they left. I don't know that they ever gave them back.

Here is this church with the pastor playing money games behind the scenes, manipulating people to give time and money. His message was from the blab and grabbit prosperity non-gospel persuasion. He didn't micro-manage any sin in his congregation but instead told them they were blessed and would be even more blessed if they gave and the more they gave the more they would be blessed. It's a scam. He's a scam too. Sadly I remember when he used to be real. This church has a BIG turnover of people who come and stay awhile and ultimately leave bewildered, vaccating a seat that some other searching soul will gladly fill. This pastor even brags that his church is just a "filling station" explaining the ones who leave only came to get full and have taken what they received elsewhere, which is God's real plan. Scary... I can't believe the ones that are STILL there after all these years... in fact some have remained with him since he started. Only a few though and they are 'family' now, being releted by marriage.

Yep, people are often manipulated and decieved in a building they perceive to be a church, when in fact it's just a house of mirrors. Amazingly some people actually serve God in them and don't lose their faith.

Quote
rrmoderator
Frank Sumatra:

You should also factor in the people who are manipulated and deceived.

Many people don't fully realize how a group is really run and what its ultimate expectations may be when they first become involved.

It is very rare that people knowingly join a "cult."

Instead, there is the element of deception and recruitment and retention of members is often something like a con game.

People can be taken in.

For example, people are taken in by "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves" to "sell a couple bottles of Dr. Good," which is the old snakeoil con. And in the song the pitch begins with "preach a little Gospel."

Sadly, there a unethical destructive churches that use the Gospel to sell whatever they want to exploit people.

There are so many facets to their methods of manipulation and control techniques. For the most part, they are very subtle. And, certainly they can never find it within them to admit that they engage in deceit. They feel somehow, and probably fully believe that they are above reproach. The pastors that I encountered always seemed so honest and sincere, and if asked about something that appeared questionable, always they had an explanation that sounded so logical. Yes, and always with a big warm smile, a big hug, and dripping with charisma they keep on doing what they’re doing and apparently without conscience.

That was one side of the coin. The other however, was one where they closely study members, apparently to determine an individual’s weak points, then fully exploit those to their full advantage. For the most part, they use fear and guilt as heavy leverage upon an individual, and appeared to be the main theme in this, what I call “Shame-based” ministry.

When you are “trapped” inside a system like this, it is very difficult to know, fully understand or realize what is going on. You have to step out of the box in order to gain clear perspective. For me, I think it took about 90 days after I left that church before I really started to gain a clear understanding and realization of what they had been doing all along.

Certainly there’s a lot to be said with regard to their structure and doctrines. PC operates as if by being in church all the time, participating in every event they schedule, always be on time, always obey your pastor, pay every dime and then some of your tithes and offerings, never miss an altar call, be involved in a ministry, and join leadership.. then this equates to something like racking up “Frequent Flyer Miles” towards your free trip to heaven. Well, none of that is biblical… it’s all a charade.. They hide behind their titles of “Pastor,” their pulpits, and of course the bible.

I should have known better, but I didn’t. At least now I feel that I should have. Just because someone holds the title of Pastor, or calls themselves “Preacher,” that does not guarantee that he or she truly is a man or woman of God. Just because one claims to be “specially anointed,” God’s chosen one, or other such reference to themselves does not mean that they are. Just because they mention, or have their leadership members mention what great miracles and healings they have performed, or what a great service to the community to they are, does not mean that it is true. Just because they read scripture and preach from the bible does not make them biblical, nor honest, nor true.

Some may see them as a generation of saints, just as I did, which is the image they desire to project; but remove yourself from the cult and their effects and control, they start to appear not unlike the Pharisees whom Christ described as, “a generation of vipers.” Those whom He questioned, “How can ye, being evil, speak good things?”

When I first went to PC, they never tell anyone what they expect of you.. or what’s coming down the road.. They do not tell you how they operate, their methods, their structure, or what they will require you to do.. not until later on.. not for about six months which was their “grace” period. Then they start to turn up the heat… just as in the frog in the boiling water theory that I mentioned before.

I will fully admit that I was taken in by some very deceptive and clever, “Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves.” But after I left, the more I realized how much I’d been bamboozled by them, the more stupid I felt. I can say that I went in there with a sincere and honest heart, and perhaps even I turned a blind eye to things that I should have known better.. There were some things that I did choose to overlook, and try to reason and understand.. but I just wanted to believe and be cooperative, and yes, to repent of things that I am guilty of.. and they take this and use it to their full advantage for monetary gain and their goal of complete control over an individual’s life. Every aspect. Had I know that Praise Chapel had the reputation of being a cult, I would have steered clear of them, and would have never set one foot in the door in the first place…

For if one comes to the realization that he is among scorpions, and chooses not to remove himself… then he must not think it strange to be stung or bitten.