ONE LAST WARNING.

RANTING ON AND ON AND POSTING PERSONAL ATTACKS OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS NOT MEANINGFUL PARTICIPATION ON THIS BOARD.

IF YOU ARE HERE TO HARASS THOSE POSTING CRITICISM OF PRAISE CHAPEL, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY BE BANNED.

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What attacks? If anything I think that both believerof1 and Hawk have been equally responsible. There has been no harassment.

Don't let these people chase you off the board.

If they continue in the same pattern they will be banned.

Hang in there and don't be intimidated

There is no intimidation only dialogue and defense from personal attacks. I think you would agree that is only fair. Banning some one for meaningful dialogue would only show your bias.

The warning stands.

Attempt to spin it however you want, but those that violate the rules will be banned.

pastor/precherman:

If there are meaningful checks and balances answer the following and supply documentation.

1. That your church has a democratically elected board that can discipline you, fire you and that they control the budget of the church and set your salary. Please supply a copy of the church constitution and bylaws that provide for this as previously requested.

2. That your church has an independently audited and annually published financial report that is distributed to all members, which reports all salaries, any and all compensation and expenses paid out from church funds. Please supply a copy of that report as previously requested.

What are the exact educational requirements for Praise Chapel pastors necessary before being ordained?

Must they all have an accredited college degree?

Do they all attend an accredited seminary for a post-graduate degree before becoming ordained?

Please be specific.

These are standards and practices embraced by the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches, which provide congregational safeguards concerning checks a balances through church government and meaningful financial disclosure.

You say:

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"all the checks an balances you have spoken of are present and have been adressed."

Please respond to the points specifically and explain how your church meets these standards and safeguards and either fax me a copy of the documents to support that claim or send a PDF file to me through email to prove it.

You say that you have your "own training system for pastors and leaders."

Is it accredited?

How is it accredited and by who specifically?

Do you require an accredited college degree?

How must it be accredited?

You seem to be repeatedly attempting to avoid actually responding to these points and instead try to talk around them, without providing either specifics or proof.

Either you do or do not have these safeguards and standards.

Please answer the questions.

Seems to me these questions are quite simple and easy to understand. If someone were to have difficulty in answering them, then my next question would be Motive.

Knowing Praise Chapel as well as I do, then these are not questions that one does not have the ability to answer.. these legitimate questions are ones I suspect Praise Chapel would rather not address. And to that I say, why not? If everything is on the up and up, above board with nothing to be concealed... please remove the shroud of darkness concerning these issues. Reveal the truth and then stand upon that truth. A great president once said, "You have nothing to fear but fear itself."

I see my name continues to be mentioned. Again I question the motive behind it. I see that some claim that the intent was not to run me off the board. It should be pretty clear to those of understanding and reasoning ability that was indeed the full intent by means of what I consider a wolfpack mentality. Honesty is not one of Praise Chapel's finer points.

Please note yet another Praise Chapel tactic that is in full view. It is called, The Blame Game.

This is almost like the “Final Jeopardy! Round”… you know, the host first announces the category, then the show goes into commercial break… at which time the staff comes on stage and barriers are placed between contestants to discourage looking at one another’s answers.

The contestants then consider how much they are willing to risk and are given time to write down their responses.

Well? I think we’ve all had enough time for the commercial break, and the host has already revealed the clue. So what is holding everyone up with the answers? Do we need the Jeopardy theme “think music” too?

Hawk,

I am done posting here.

[b:2960284a1d][Editor's note: "preacherman" aka "pastor" never answered questions specifically regarding accountability, though he at times he claimed to do so. This is very telling.

In this post before editing he attempted to have the last word, which was another apology combined with a personal attack. It was edited out.

He is no longer a member of this board.

At times people come on this board essentially to advance their own agenda and to protect their own interests. They can be seen as apologists or in Internet jargon "trolls."

Moderators here try as best we can to allow free and open discussion, which often includes a few "trolls." But at times there comes a point when the posts say little if anything meaningful, and amount to little more than redundant self-serving statements and/or at times "flames."

Accordingly, such repeated posts may warrant deletion and a member doing this may be banned from the board, according to the rules he or she agreed to before posting.

This was the case with "preacherman" who apparently had no interest in actually adressing issues through a meaningful dialog.

His repeated evasiveness here regarding specific questions about accountability within his church, seems more like a tacit admission that there really is none.][/b:2960284a1d]

There is quite a lot to be learned here on this particular message board with regard to Praise Chapel, the subject of the forum in the form of a question, “Is Praise Chapel a Cult?” and the methods, tactics, and attitudes of not only cult leaders, but those who are trapped in cults as well.

I must also make mention of the numerous personal e-mails I received with regard to this forum. Some were threats, others were sent by persons asking questions, but the ones I made particular note of were ones sent by those claiming to be PC pastors. I have good reason to believe these were indeed sent by genuine PC pastors. The manipulation and control methods they employ must be a way of life for them.. for in their e-mails they attempt to direct my thinking, offer suggestions as to what I should be saying in this forum, or recommendations that I should just keep quiet. Apparently they do fear that they have a great deal to lose by exposure of the truth.

As I made a pun of the Final Jeopardy round waiting for questions to be answered, apparently they determined there was too much to risk if they were to honestly answer the questions. I will then answer them myself, though I do want to mention the finance issue.. Follow the money trail.

It is my understanding that 5% of the revenue collected by each individual Praise Chapel is sent to support the mother church. Although some here have vehemently denied that allegation (of course only after being asked numerous times,) I have reason to believe there is some truth to it. I’ve heard many rumors before to the effect that they operate a multi-level marketing or pyramid type scheme.. however that is difficult to confirm since there is no financial accountability. I’ve noted always in the PC churches a big push to get members married only to other members, get them through discipleship classes and get new churches started by these members as quickly as possible. As far as the finances are concerned, I’ve heard PC pastors say openly that their books are available for anyone to look at. I’ve also witnessed people who have asked to see them, being immediately questioned and challenged, then accused of “not trusting,” etc… and not being allowed to see them. Again I say, “Follow the money.”

Praise Chapel cannot supply documentation to support meaningful checks and balances because there are none. And if they did come up with some type documents I would question their authenticity.

Praise Chapel does not have a democratically elected board, and the system they have established closely resembles a neofascist regime. Pastors have told me that they are under the authority of the mother church and must answer to the same. However, whenever complaints are made as to the behavior or incidents involving a particular pastor, or pastors, it has been my experience that the mother church places the blame on the complainant, and absolutely nothing is done in the way of discipline. Praise Chapel pastor are free to do whatever they please, however they please, and whenever they please so long as they conform to the Totalistic system they have in place. Bottom line is no accountability exists. On this point alone is evidence enough that Praise Chapel is a cult.

In four years time at PC, I have never seen any church constitution or any written bylaws, therefore I must conclude that there are none.

Church finances are a highly clandestine, secretive affair, and no one in my experience has ever been authorized to see the budget, let alone the salary the pastors receive. These matters are handled only by certain members of leadership within the church, designated by the pastor.

Nothing with regard to Praise Chapel finances is published as far as I am aware of, absolutely nothing along these lines has ever been distributed or given to the membership. Nothing is independently audited, and all financial dealings are handled internally, and only by certain members.

There are absolutely no educational requirements for Praise Chapel pastors necessary before being ordained. Such persons are chosen from within the church body, and solely depends upon the individual’s obedience to the pastors and leadership of that church, payment of tithes, offerings, participation in every single event they schedule, and attendance in what are called “discipleship classes.” When chosen, (usually done in a “prophesy”) they are told they are to be “specially anointed,” and the entire ordination is held in a private (secret) ceremony by the mother church. Members of the regular congregation are not allowed to attend, and the only members invited to that ceremony are certain members of leadership.

Although some PC pastors have attended college, there are no college or educational requirements whatsoever. I have been told by PC pastors that the bible does not require that, therefore it is not needed. Furthermore, I have been told numerous times by PC pastors that it is not a requirement to fully know the bible either. In fact, bible study is only authorized as they direct it to be performed. They discourage persons with good or better than average bible knowledge and deem such persons to be, “theologians” thus tacking a derogatory and negative connotation of the term.

Praise Chapel does not meet any of the standards and safeguards that were mentioned.

I remain open to any honest questions in regard to Praise Chapel, my experiences, and cults on this message board.

I have started to post again here several times, but am very intimidated by Hawk & the moderator.
But I want to make a request of Hawk that he only states facts, not rumors, not second hand information. The things that you say are very damaging and hurtful to some of us. You have every right to tell your story and answer questions that you have first hand knowledge of, but it's really not fair for you to continue in attack mode against the fellowship as a whole.
I love my church, and have stated in my previous post that I have not experienced what is being described. Not all pastors are the same, not all churches are the same PC, PH, Foursquare, etc....
Hawk, I believe with all my heart that you feel you were mistreated and have been hurt. But when including all PC in your out lashing I feel that is unfair, confusing, and potentially damaging to members who are in loving and nurturing PC.
As far as your sparring partner is concerned, I'm having a really hard time not noticing that you seem to poke, and poke until he reacts. You seem to know just what buttons to push to provoke him, and then the moderator steps in and slaps his hand, meanwhile I imaging that you take great pleasure in that. If I'm wrong, I apologize. I'm not defending his outbursts but I hope you see what I am saying. I am not equipped to fight with you, and have no desire to. I hope this is not taken that way.
I noticed that Pastor Greg offered to intervene on your behalf with the Pastor who caused you harm. I hope you take him up on that, because if all the things that you say were done to you keep happening to other believers, how would that make you feel?
I can't debate the politics of PC with you, but I do know that in our church there are no secrets as far as finances are concerned and if I walk into church on Sunday and ask the pastor's wife for an accounting I would have it by the next Sunday. And I can guarantee if I had a problem that I could not resolve with my pastor, or if he mistreated me in any way a phone call to his pastor would produce results immediately.
I have read the post about all the facts on the above post by Hawk, and guess what? I will continue to be a member of my church, I am not brainwashed, I DO NOT throw up in a trash can or anywhere else, and if I don't like the way PC Fellowship is run I can simply walk away.
Praise Chapel is not a cult.
I pray only the best for all of you.
God bless you

Hawk:

Often people interested in subverting the board will conform to the same pattern, which has become somewhat more subtle over the years.

In the "old days" people would just "flame"--posting rabid attacks and insults, but it seems that has now been given up, due to moderators.

Later the strategy seems to be get one relatively neutral seeming post through to be able to use private messaging, then spam whoever you want to harass and/or attempt to manipulate them behind-the-scenes and off the board.

The 10 approved posts requirement now makes that strategy more difficult.

When I first heard about the "Praise Chapel" it seemed like a splinter group that had broken away from Wayman Mitchell's authoritarian control at Christian Fellowship Churches.

The name "Praise Chapel" was once used by that group along with "The Door," "Victory Chapel," "Potter's House," "La Puerta" and other names, all under the control of Mitchell.

Now it seems that Praise Chapel is something like "Mitchell lite," at best.

Perhaps not as extreme as the Mitchell churches, but pretty close in design and practices.

If Praise Chapel doesn't have the basic accountability features built into most Protestant churches, such as democratically elected church government, a constitution and bylaws to empower and protect the general membership, which provide for meaningful checks and balances the organization is potentially unsafe.

And if there is no independently audited financial disclosure through an annually published report or report distributed routinely to every tithing member that states all salaries, any and all compensation and expenses paid out from church funds, then no one really knows where all the money goes, other than the pastors and their hand-picked few.

Educational requirements, such as an accredited undergraduate degree and seminary degree, are typically expected within most Protestant churches. This insures that pastors are competent, have been tested and proven themselves capable before assuming positions of responsibility.

Those that pay the bills through their tithes should decide upon things such as salaries, hiring and firing. After all, they pay for the pastor and the church expenses, so it's only reasonable.

The pattern of behavior you have detailed and lack of safeguards exposed here puts "Praise Chapel" in a bad light.

@peace:

If all Praise Chapels are not the same, which ones have the safeguards specifically detailed above that therefore are exceptions?

Be very specific and respond directly to the points made about the lack of meaningful accountability, financial transparency and educational requirements.

Please don't waste everyone's time by attempting to talk around and/or avoid responding to these points specifically.