Mr. Watkins,

I understand that there is a common theme here. i've not once argued or debated that. i've also not come on here to defend anyone, or diminish anyone's experience, simply because i have no first hand knowledge of any of it.

i can tell you assuredly that i am not a plant or a spy, and i am not a 'fellowship guy'. I am simply a guy who can say with certainty, that my experience is not and will not be like yours. i know that you cannot help but believe otherwise, and i understand why, but my church is not the one that left a bad taste in your mouth. I'm nobody's fool Mr. Watkins. this is not my first trip to the rodeo. I've been in church since i was born and i know what a healthy church looks like because i've been in healthy churches, and unhealthy churches. I come from a very strong christian family and have been taught my whole life to watch for charlatans and false prophets. Had I had any of these inklings early on, i would have simply not come back. i walk into every church i've ever attended with an eye of suspicion because i have to know that i am in a healthy environment. same goes for the church i attend now. When i walked in to my church when it was a small work, it was up to the Pastor to prove that he was squared away biblically and scripturally. that he was a man of integrity and right standing. i prayed about the decision to stop making the hour drive i was making on sundays to attend a church in another county, and was led by the holy spirit to make this church my home. My pastor has proven to me to be all of these things. he has an unblemished reputation in the community, amongst the other pastors in the area (non-PC) and is working within the body in ways i've not seen other pastors do. his enthusiasm for the gospel is compelling. i've examined his life, and he has given me no reason to believe that there is any room for corruption or malfeasance. he and his wife have made great personal investment in me, my wife and the people of our church. they are two of the most genuine, honest, giving individuals i know and they make me proud to call them Pastors, friends and brethren. so forgive me if i beg to differ with you concerning the present or future state of my church, or the churches that belong to our local fellowship.

you asked; "IF YOU ARE SO HAPPY AND YOUR CHURCH IS SO HEALTHY, WHY ARE YOU STILL POSTING HERE?"

i think i've made myself abundantly clear as to why i've posted here, but to clarify... This forum is not a therapy group for people who have been mistreated by this group or that, although for some it may be therapeutic,. and i have no problem with that. from what i can tell it is a public information forum. you have very clearly stated your position, however yours is not the only one there is. and for anyone who would come to read this site, i would be remiss to allow them to believe that every praise chapel is the same as what you may have experienced. I understand that you don't trust anyone, and my intent has never been to try and convince you or anyone else whom has posted here of anything. i post here for the sake of the reader, the ones who aren't registered users or posters. the one who is coming looking for information, or may stumble upon this thread like i did. It would be awesome if churches had ratings like restaurants so any passer by would see the rating hanging on the front door, but thats just not the case. EVERY church or organization is a gamble and must be entered into with diligence, a healthy degree of skepticism and awareness.

you said: "If you were really looking for information for a disabled vet, all you had to do was read a couple of postings to know you would not find that information on this site, and yet you remain here."

i was looking for information, which i got. but that has nothing to do with anything. my decision to visit this site had nothing to do with the information i was after. i visited this site after the fact. my decision to stay and read what at the time was a 14 page thread was out of personal interest. my decisions to post was my own, based on a personal conviction to do so. i remain here and continue to post because people keep responding to my posts, and asking questions.

Mr. Watkins, i dont fell a need to to call you paranoid, but i would say that your outlook is certainly colored by experience. i completely understand that. but i will not allow your experience to color mine, nor will i shrink back from my convictions.

blessings.

alteredpilot:

You said, "i know what a healthy church looks like".

Is your branch of Praise Chapel "healthy"?

Is there meaningful and detailed financial disclosure?

This is done through an annual financial statement/budget, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds, which is independently audited by an outside accounting firm.

Does your church do that?

Is your pastor accountable?

Meaningful accountability is typically provided through church bylaws, which require a democratically elected board elected by the general church membership. The board can then hold the pastor accountable and has the power to fire him. The board would also set the budget, including salaries, compensation, etc. and serve fixed terms, subsequently standing for election again or leaving office and being replaced by newly elected board members.

This is how most Protestant churches are run.

Is your church run like that?

Additionally there is most often also denominational accountability through an umbrella organization such as the Southern Baptist Convention, Assemblies of God, etc. The denomination sets church doctrinal standards, educational requirements for staff and may address grievances. The denomination is also governed by an democratically elected leadership, typically elected by church representatives (who are elected at by their respective church membership) at a regularly held convention.

Is your church accountable through an umbrella organization that is governed democratically?

Through these measures a church need not be quite the "gamble" you describe.

Are the critics of Praise Chapel "paranoid" or perceptive?

Your response to these questions will demonstrate whether your church is truly a "healthy environment" or actually rather authoritarian in nature.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 03:42AM by rrmoderator.

Mr. Altered Pilot,

Your response is neither a surprise or something new. It is pre programmed, we have all heard this type of response and have been trained to give it.

I am glad you think you know what a healthy church is, we all thought that too, and had there been a forum like this one years ago, we all would have been saved lots of grief and hardache. I still am not convinced by you of who you say you are. Your responses sound like praise chapel, your over the top devotion to your pastor sounds like praise chapel, the way you express yourself, sounds like praise chapel and by your own admission or vagueness of admission somehow you are connected and associated by praise chapel. As the old joke goes, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

Again, I really appreciate your vagueness, the ability to skirt the truth is a praise chapel and cultish tendency,

Oh and by the way, my perceptions have certainly been colored by experience, all bad.

Jeff Watkins

Quote
rrmoderator
alteredpilot:

You said, "i know what a healthy church looks like".

Is your branch of Praise Chapel "healthy"?

i do believe that it is.

Quote
rrmoderator
Is there meaningful and detailed financial disclosure?

This is done through an annual financial statement/budget, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds, which is independently audited by an outside accounting firm.

Does your church do that?

yes. it is presented every year at the congregational meeting, along with the projected budget for the coming year, which must be approved and voted on.

Quote
rrmoderator
Is your pastor accountable?

Meaningful accountability is typically provided through church bylaws, which require a democratically elected board elected by the general church membership. The board can then hold the pastor accountable and has the power to fire him. The board would also set the budget, including salaries, compensation, etc. and serve fixed terms, subsequently standing for election again or leaving office and being replaced by newly elected board members.

This is how most Protestant churches are run.

Is your church run like that?

yes.

Quote
rrmoderator
Additionally there is most often also denominational accountability through an umbrella organization such as the Southern Baptist Convention, Assemblies of God, etc. The denomination sets church doctrinal standards, educational requirements for staff and may address grievances. The denomination is also governed by an democratically elected leadership, typically elected by church representatives (who are elected at by their respective church membership) at a regularly held convention.

Is your church accountable through an umbrella organization that is governed democratically?

we are non denominational. per our bylaws: autonomous, independent, self-governing, not subject to the authority of any religious organization, council, or persons. the oversight and leadership of the church is the responsibility of the elders.
we are however part of PCCF and affiliated with the restoration movement churches ('the Christian Church", "Church of Christ").

Quote
rrmoderator
Are the critics of Praise Chapel "paranoid" or perceptive?

Paranoia is certainly a loaded term and certainly an unfair characterization of someone who holds a strong conviction based on personal experience. i realize that i used the term 'paranoia" loosely in a response to an earlier post, but i had no intent of painting anyone here as paranoid. perceptive. i believe that every individual here has every right to hold the perception that they do. they have had experiences that i have no first hand knowledge of so i cannot dispute what they perceive based on that experience. conversely, they also hold very strong opinions about things that they have no first hand knowledge of. and that i understand also. if i had bought a hyundai 25 years ago, you'd be hard pressed to tell me that today a hyundai is a great car. (i know, its a VERY loose analogy).

RRModerator: ever notice how no one can answer your simple, straightforward questions regarding financial and pastoral accountability and transparancy? Everytime these questions are asked its like no one in favor of PCCF even acknowledges that they have been asked let alone answer them. Know why? Because they can't and instead of saying that they get defensive and turn the entire issue back at whoever says something they don't like trying to discredit them; anything to change the subject. Know why? Because Praise Chapel does not have any of these Safeguards. They never have.

Altered Pilot: the way you describe that your church answers to no one but yet it is affiliated with Praise Chapel is just not possible. That's not how it works. Maybe you should warn your pastor to look out because whatever he is doing with Praise Chapel it doesn't sound to me like either one of you have the whole story. Anyone can be deceived. There is no way any church can be under the Praise Chaple monniker and not answer to someone from the fellowship. You have to pay your church tithe to someone. Its just the way it works. Praise Chapel is a business; its incorporated; these people are no joke. They will tell you whatever you want to hear to get you in and then they take over.

Pose the questions from RRModerator to your pastor and have him pose them to whoever he is dealing with in Praise Chapel; if they cannot be answered honestly and straighforwardly - without changing the subject or getting defensive then there is the answer. There is nothing wrong with asking question about something so important.

alteredpilot:

Let's break this down point by point for a better understanding of how your church is run.

What is the salary and total compensation paid to your pastor, as you say is disclosed specifically through the budget process your describe?

What is the name of the outside accounting firm that annually audits your church budget/financial statement?

Do all the members of your church vote by secret ballot to elect board members according to your church bylaws?

Does each duly elected church board member then serve a fixed term and are they subsequently required by church bylaws to run for re-election through the same repeated process?

Can the duly elected board fire your pastor?

What are the educational requirements for a pastor at your church?

You said, "the oversight and leadership of the church is the responsibility of the elders".

Do you mean to say "elders" is the name your church uses to describe its democratically elected church board, which serves fixed terms of office as previously outlines?

Please answer these specific questions so that people reading this thread can better understand how your church is specifically run.

Altered Pilot:

I only have three questions for ya, do you think you can answer them straight up?

1. What fellowship or organization was your pastor part of before pioneering your current church?
2. What is your pastors name, is there a harm in us knowing if he is an upstanding guy like you say? ( I would like to research his pastorial career for myself)
3. Would you ask your pastor is he is willing to come on to this site and answer the questions the moderator has asked you several times?

jeff watkins



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 10:14PM by kingmankowboy.

I have been doing some outside research on praise chapel, it is amazing what you will find on google. there are a few other cult watching sites as this one that link praise chapel to potters house and cfm to this day. So any of you praise chapel supporters this is a heads up, Rick Ross is not the only one saying this, google it for yourself, maybe the light will come on.

Scary, scary stuff,

jeff watkins



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2011 12:35AM by kingmankowboy.

To Everyone:

Just for general knowledge and research, go to google.com and type in praise chapel cult, you would be amazed how many people think praise chapel is a cult, you will find several sites dedicated to watching cults and religions with cult like tendencies. Praise chapel is linked to potters house on many of these other sites as well.

I guess potters house and praise chapel did not inform the rest of the world that they are no longer warm and snuggly companions, seems everyone outside of them, dont believe it.

Just a thought:

jeff watkins

Altered Pilot

You made a statement in one of your last posts that this site was not a therapy group, I think you are wrong, I think that is exactly what this is for me and others, a chance to say what we are all thinking, to talk and relate to each other on similar experiences and in some cases family coming together, because some of us have been around pc for years and have known each other for a long time.

One thing about a common belief here is we all went to church to have a family in degree or another, despite how jacked up pc is, one thing it did do was give us all the opportunity to be a family.

just a thought, and have you given any thought to the three questions I posed to you?

jeff watkins