Dr. Enroth "False teachers not only imitate the real ministers of Christ, but regularly quote Scripture and distort the Bible for their own purposes.

Thielicke "The great seducer always uses the same devices: he seems to take God at his word, and yet he twists the meaning of this word almost before it has left God's mouth" (Thielicke, Between God and Satan, p. 55).



Truthtesty

To the Forum:

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"Now? Name one you stopped?

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"This is a place to exchange ideas and to learn. And, you assume that everyone who comes here with a complaint is being objective."

Truthtesty: Why should she? The US government won't even not stop a cult, until they become criminal. The purpose and dialogue of this site (as it's always been even before you) is to help survivors of cults and to warn others so that they can protect themselves with knowledge.

Truthtesty: It is Thiemite signature how genez likes to tell the moderator what she's thinking, then at the same time tells the moderator that she has no idea what genez is thinking. Typical. Thiemites are not interested in what you personally think. Thiemites want to tell you what you should be doing in place of your thinking ie copying Thieme's catastrophically dogmatic speculation, submitting your will to Thieme on your way to Super-grace-atopia, etc... Thieme even said no one can ever say they have reached Super-grace. Thiemites are just a mouse running on an endless wheel. They either jump off and land on thier feet or they burnout sooner or later and are thrown off the wheel on thier head. AND REMEMBER genez, [u:4d6f6be044]BEING PREDJUDICED IS SUBJECTIVE! [/u:4d6f6be044]EVERYONE KNOWS THIEME WAS AN [u:4d6f6be044]EXTREMELY PREDJUDICED[/u:4d6f6be044] SUBJECTIVE CORRUPT ANIMAL HUMAN HYBRID. You know that. We know that. One main difference is that - YOU LIKE IT.


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"All those here complaining were FORCED to be in the ministry by their parents. Against their wills. Kids who could not think like adults."

Truthtesty: Saying "all" is not accurate, some people were adults when they attended. I was a young adult capable of out-thinking Thieme's manipulations then, as well as now.


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"Its been complaints by those who were kids who were forced to attend by parents. They did not want to be there."

Truthtesty: And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise? Thieme was teaching falsely as has been proven by higher academic authority than Thieme's, as well as by the simple truth of common sense and common biblical logic. So it appears the kids' thinking was correct.


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"Your always going to have some malcontents in any highly motivated ministry.

Truthtesty: Your always going to have perversively submissive and corrupt cult members who enjoy thier perverse submission to a cult leader. Your always going to have corrupt "animal human hybrids" leaders who abuse thier position and power, who lust for the violation of the innocents' faith. Your always going to have survivors of these systems who are going to TELL THE TRUTH and have a nightmare story to tell. Other people can be warned and they can take evasive action. And like I said before most cult's are highly motivated. By the way Thiemites are so proud of how they force people against thier wills, but then again the BTK killer was proud of forcing people against thier will, also. The people Thiemites bully and attack are mostly children and adults who are not prepared with correct information. Understandly, these innocents are not ready for this unwarranted attack.


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"Now if Thieme denied the Deity of Christ? Denied the resurrection? Believed in salvation by works?

Truthtesty: Thieme [b:4d6f6be044]denies[/b:4d6f6be044] atonement by: the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS and the physical death of Jesus. That is cultic. You accuse me of grinding my heel in christianity? You! AND Thieme! "positively" grind your heels in the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS! You both have slipped and fallen. Not one letter spoken by Thieme was ever more important than the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS AND the simple moment to moment faith of christians in Jesus. NOT ONE LETTER IN ANY LANGUAGE!


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"Disagreements on other areas of theology does not constitute a cult.

Truthtesty: Thieme [b:4d6f6be044]denies[/b:4d6f6be044] the atoning quality of the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS. Disagreement about the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS is not just a "minor disagreement" in Theology. Sure Theologians and others disagree about different areas of theology all the time, but not on the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS. Denying the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS is satanic according to the doctrinal statement of Dallas Theological Seminary. [b:4d6f6be044]Chafer taught that the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS was necessary for atonement. [/b:4d6f6be044]Thieme [b:4d6f6be044]catastrophically deviated[/b:4d6f6be044]. I say again who would be most interested in spreading a "positive" false corrupt gospel?

DTS doctrinal statement ART III "We believe that Satan is the originator of sin, and that, under the permission of God, he, through subtlety, led our first parents into transgression, thereby accomplishing their moral fall and subjecting them and their posterity to his own power; that he is the enemy of God and the people of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped; and that he who in the beginning said, “I will be like the most High,” in his warfare appears as an angel of light, even counterfeiting the works of God by fostering religious movements and systems of doctrine, [u:4d6f6be044][b:4d6f6be044]which systems in every case are characterized by a denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ [/b:4d6f6be044][/u:4d6f6be044]and of salvation by grace alone (Gen. 3:1–19; Rom. 5:12–14; 2 Cor. 4:3–4; 11:13–15; Eph. 6:10–12; 2 Thess. 2:4; 1 Tim. 4:1–3). [www.dts.edu]



Truthtesty[b:4d6f6be044][/b:4d6f6be044]

[i:1efd659fcf]Are you OK? Mmoderator [/i:1efd659fcf][actually, it’s RRmoderator] [i:1efd659fcf]stated that Brainout has been banned. You OK?[/i:1efd659fcf]

I’m fine, GeneZ, thanks for asking. How are you?

Forgive me for pointing out the extremely obvious, but when I post my response to brainout on this forum, then everyone else can see my refutation of his last post. And I’m glad I did, because of the responses I’ve gotten from a couple of the members here. And to point out the extremely obvious again, this is a public online forum, and brainout can still view my response, even if he is banned from posting. I will confess that when I replied to brainout, I didn’t realize he could no longer email me. I’m afraid you’ll just have to bear with me while I learn the technical details of the RickRoss forum.

[i:1efd659fcf]Payment for sins was at the cross. Forgiveness of sins, when you believe.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

They did not receive forgiveness on the cross. The Cross provided the means for the forgiveness when they believed.

# Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’[/i:1efd659fcf]

Obviously, forgiveness, salvation, justification, redemption, reconciliation, and eternal life are [i:1efd659fcf]provided [/i:1efd659fcf]at the Cross and [i:1efd659fcf]received [/i:1efd659fcf]when we believe. But these provisions of the Cross are [i:1efd659fcf]complete[/i:1efd659fcf]. We cannot be partially forgiven, any more than we can be partially saved, partially justified, partially redeemed, or partially reconciled, or have partial eternal life. We never need to be forgiven, saved, justified, redeemed, reconciled, or made alive again once we’ve believed in Christ. We either believe in Christ and receive all these things complete, or we reject Christ and do not receive them at all. There is no gray area; there is no in-between. God is a holy and just God, and when He forgives the sins paid for by His Son on the Cross, He must completely and eternally forgive those sins, because the Sacrifice of His Son was complete and eternal. He cannot leave that forgiveness half-finished and incomplete when a sinner believes in His Son as the Perfect Sacrifice for all his sins, past, present, and future. And we are commanded to forgive others as He forgave us. We are to completely forgive those who wrong us; we do not partially forgive them and then finish forgiving them later.

[b:1efd659fcf]Eph 4:32 [/b:1efd659fcf]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, [b:1efd659fcf]even as God for Christ’s sake [u:1efd659fcf]hath forgiven[/u:1efd659fcf] you[/b:1efd659fcf].

[b:1efd659fcf]Col 3:13 [/b:1efd659fcf]Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: [b:1efd659fcf]even as Christ [u:1efd659fcf]forgave[/u:1efd659fcf] you[/b:1efd659fcf], so also do ye.

In the following scriptures in my next post, including the two you cited from Acts, we receive the forgiveness of sins with no strings attached—no stipulations about needing another kind of forgiveness for any of our sins in the future.

All the following scriptures promise us the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, with no exceptions or stipulations, and never even a hint of “other kinds of forgiveness” that will not be accomplished until the resurrection. The forgiveness of our sins cannot be a partially accomplished, ongoing process (as it is in Roman Catholicism).

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Acts 13:38-39 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you [b:5cad5a9bdb]the forgiveness of sins[/b:5cad5a9bdb]: And by him all that believe are [b:5cad5a9bdb]justified from [u:5cad5a9bdb]all[/u:5cad5a9bdb] things[/b:5cad5a9bdb], from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Acts 10:43 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name [b:5cad5a9bdb]whosoever believeth in him shall receive [u:5cad5a9bdb]remission of sins[/u:5cad5a9bdb][/b:5cad5a9bdb].

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Acts 26:18 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive [b:5cad5a9bdb]forgiveness of sins[/b:5cad5a9bdb], and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Eph 1:6-7[/b:5cad5a9bdb] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the [b:5cad5a9bdb]forgiveness of sins[/b:5cad5a9bdb], according to the riches of his grace;

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Eph 4:32 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, [b:5cad5a9bdb]even as God for Christ’s sake [u:5cad5a9bdb]hath forgiven[/u:5cad5a9bdb] you[/b:5cad5a9bdb].

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Col 1:13-14 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the [b:5cad5a9bdb]forgiveness of sins[/b:5cad5a9bdb]:

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Col 3:13 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: [b:5cad5a9bdb]even as Christ [u:5cad5a9bdb]forgave[/u:5cad5a9bdb] you[/b:5cad5a9bdb], so also do ye.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]1 John 2:12[/b:5cad5a9bdb] I write unto you, little children, because [b:5cad5a9bdb]your sins are forgiven you [/b:5cad5a9bdb]for his name’s sake.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Heb 10:17-18 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]And [b:5cad5a9bdb]their [u:5cad5a9bdb]sins[/u:5cad5a9bdb] and [u:5cad5a9bdb]iniquities[/u:5cad5a9bdb] will I remember [u:5cad5a9bdb]no more[/u:5cad5a9bdb][/b:5cad5a9bdb]. Now where [b:5cad5a9bdb][u:5cad5a9bdb]remission[/u:5cad5a9bdb][/b:5cad5a9bdb] of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Col 2:13-14 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, [b:5cad5a9bdb]having [u:5cad5a9bdb]forgiven[/u:5cad5a9bdb] you [u:5cad5a9bdb]all[/u:5cad5a9bdb] trespasses[/b:5cad5a9bdb]; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

When God says [i:5cad5a9bdb]all [/i:5cad5a9bdb]our sins are forgiven, He means [i:5cad5a9bdb]all [/i:5cad5a9bdb]sins. And there is not the slightest hint in any of these scriptures that we will have to wait for the resurrection for our forgiveness to be complete.

The following scriptures promise us the cleansing/washing away of our sins through faith in Christ, with no exceptions or stipulations. The washing and cleansing of our sins and unrighteousness cannot be a partially accomplished, ongoing process (as it is in Roman Catholicism). It is a Finished Work, complete the moment we trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]1 Cor 6:11 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]And such were some of you: but [b:5cad5a9bdb]ye are [u:5cad5a9bdb]washed[/u:5cad5a9bdb][/b:5cad5a9bdb], but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Eph 5:25-27 [/b:5cad5a9bdb]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and [b:5cad5a9bdb]cleanse [/b:5cad5a9bdb]it with the [b:5cad5a9bdb]washing [/b:5cad5a9bdb]of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, [b:5cad5a9bdb]not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing[/b:5cad5a9bdb]; but that it should be [b:5cad5a9bdb]holy and [/b:5cad5a9bdb][b:5cad5a9bdb]without blemish[/b:5cad5a9bdb].

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Titus 3:4-7[/b:5cad5a9bdb] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by [b:5cad5a9bdb]the [u:5cad5a9bdb]washing[/u:5cad5a9bdb] of regeneration[/b:5cad5a9bdb], and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Rev 1:5[/b:5cad5a9bdb] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and [b:5cad5a9bdb][u:5cad5a9bdb]washed[/u:5cad5a9bdb] us from our [u:5cad5a9bdb]sins[/u:5cad5a9bdb] [/b:5cad5a9bdb]in his own blood,

[b:5cad5a9bdb]1 John 1:7[/b:5cad5a9bdb] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and [b:5cad5a9bdb]the blood of Jesus Christ his Son [u:5cad5a9bdb]cleanseth[/u:5cad5a9bdb] us from all [u:5cad5a9bdb]sin[/u:5cad5a9bdb][/b:5cad5a9bdb].

When God says we are cleansed from [i:5cad5a9bdb]all [/i:5cad5a9bdb]sin by the blood of His Son, He means [i:5cad5a9bdb]all [/i:5cad5a9bdb]sin—He is not saying that we’re only cleansed until the next time we sin. If this isn’t enough to prove that the forgiveness and cleansing of our sins is complete through the Cross at the moment of faith in Christ, then you are just refusing to acknowledge the clear, straightforward declarations of Scripture.

[b:5cad5a9bdb]1 John 1:9[/b:5cad5a9bdb] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to [b:5cad5a9bdb][u:5cad5a9bdb]forgive[/u:5cad5a9bdb] us our sins[/b:5cad5a9bdb], and to [b:5cad5a9bdb][u:5cad5a9bdb]cleanse[/u:5cad5a9bdb] us from [u:5cad5a9bdb]all[/u:5cad5a9bdb] unrighteousness[/b:5cad5a9bdb].

When God says we are cleansed from [i:5cad5a9bdb]all [/i:5cad5a9bdb]unrighteousness, He means [i:5cad5a9bdb]all [/i:5cad5a9bdb]unrighteousness—He is not saying that we’re only cleansed until the next time we sin.

[i:5cad5a9bdb]All sins [b:5cad5a9bdb]will ultimately be forgiven [/b:5cad5a9bdb]when we are in a resurrection body.[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

Could you please show me one scripture that says this? What about the saints who have died and are now awaiting the resurrection?

You are merely re-stating what Galiban has already posted. And you are not even responding to my refutation of his statements.

[u:5cad5a9bdb]Galiban wrote:[/u:5cad5a9bdb]
[i:5cad5a9bdb]At this point your belief would come in that now we have the “Completed work of the Cross” This is not an inaccurate doctrine. We were completely forgiven for our sins. True! We will never be judged for those sins. True! The confession of sins does not in anyway affect our salvation. True! We will only be judged for our works/deeds at the judgement. Not sins. Only one sin, that is unbelief, can stop you from entering heaven.
That is positional truth!
To further explain this; we were positionally forgiven our sins at salvation, we are experientially forgiven our sins as we confess them inside the function of our Royal Priesthood/Universal Priesthood, and we are ultimately forgiven all sins in the eternal state.[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

[u:5cad5a9bdb]I replied:[/u:5cad5a9bdb]
This is a perfect example of what Thieme’s convoluted technical system produces. We now have, not one, not two, but three kinds of forgiveness! Do you have a shred of proof for this, Galiban? If we are indeed completely forgiven already, then there is no need for this so-called “ultimate” forgiveness that we have to wait for eternity to receive. We can have the confidence of complete forgiveness right now in time. We do not have to wait for eternity for our forgiveness to be complete. Simple common sense, Galiban: If we are still waiting for some kind of “ultimate” forgiveness, then our forgiveness is not complete at all. God cannot partially forgive sins, Galiban. He can either completely and eternally forgive us for our transgressions against Him through the perfect sacrifice of His Son at the Cross, or He cannot forgive us at all. When God forgives, He forgives all our sins [i:5cad5a9bdb]completely and eternally[/i:5cad5a9bdb]. Our sins are washed away, and can never come between Him and us again. Forgiveness is completely accomplished by the Cross of Jesus Christ the moment we believe in Him. And to say that our forgiveness is not yet finished is borderline heresy. It compromises the Finished Work of the Cross.

[i:5cad5a9bdb]God can not be one with sin.[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

This was the whole reason for THE CROSS. The Cross resolved this issue with God’s holiness once and for all, the moment we believed in Christ. It does not need to keep getting resolved again every time we sin. Otherwise, the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was not complete.

Again, you are re-stating Galiban’s comments, and ignoring my response.

[u:5cad5a9bdb]Galiban wrote:[/u:5cad5a9bdb]
[i:5cad5a9bdb]Understand we need to be restored to fellowship with God. God cannot have contact with Sin. (1 John 1:5, Habakkuk 1:13)[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

[u:5cad5a9bdb]I replied:[/u:5cad5a9bdb]
Understand, Galiban, that God is a perfectly holy, just God, who can have [i:5cad5a9bdb]no contact with sin whatsoever[/i:5cad5a9bdb]. We must be [i:5cad5a9bdb]completely and forever [/i:5cad5a9bdb]forgiven and cleansed from our sins, and [i:5cad5a9bdb]always [/i:5cad5a9bdb]accepted and in fellowship with God, or not at all. There is no such thing as this on-and-off, ping-pong kind of forgiveness, cleansing, and fellowship and acceptance with God anywhere in the Bible. God is holy and just. He can either accept us through the blood of Jesus Christ and fellowship with us, or He cannot.

[i:5cad5a9bdb]So, when we sin, it [b:5cad5a9bdb]cuts us off from fellowship [/b:5cad5a9bdb]with the Spirit.[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

Could you please show me one scripture that says this? ...and prove to us that it’s not just your own assumption?

[i:5cad5a9bdb]The forgiveness we now receive is [b:5cad5a9bdb]a family matter[/b:5cad5a9bdb].[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

Could you please show me one scripture that says this?

[i:5cad5a9bdb]We get back in fellowship, walking in the Spirit, when we do acknowledge (admit) our sins.[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

Could you please show me one scripture where we have to “get back in fellowship”? Or one scripture where “getting back in fellowship” has anything to do with walking in the Spirit? Or one scripture where either of these have anything to do with confessing our sins?

Once again, you have merely repeated what Galiban already said, but you are not dealing with my refutation of his post.

[u:5cad5a9bdb]Galiban wrote:[/u:5cad5a9bdb]
[i:5cad5a9bdb]Ephesians 5 tells us how we grieve the spirit. 1John Chapter 1 tells us how to regain that fellowship.[/i:5cad5a9bdb]

[u:5cad5a9bdb]I replied:[/u:5cad5a9bdb]
There is a giant ASSUMPTION in between these two sentences. You ASSUME that grieving the Spirit means losing fellowship. Yet, in spite of my repeated challenges to both you and ephesians, you have not presented a shred of evidence that grieving the Spirit and fellowship have anything to do with each other. Why couldn’t Paul have simply just told us how to “regain that fellowship” right in Ephesians 5? Wasn’t it awfully irresponsible of him to leave out such an important point?

[b:5cad5a9bdb]Amos 3:3[/b:5cad5a9bdb] Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

As I have already covered in detail in my posts to ephesians, walking by the Spirit is dependent on [i:5cad5a9bdb]repentance[/i:5cad5a9bdb], not “rebound.” We walk with the Lord by [i:5cad5a9bdb]obeying [/i:5cad5a9bdb]Him. He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” You cannot read “rebound” into Amos 3:3. Amos mentions nothing about naming a list of sins to God in prayer to be restored to fellowship.

[i:383dfd5164]Like I said. I have not seen Thieme’s teaching on this matter.[/i:383dfd5164]

Here’s Thieme’s teaching in a nutshell (http://www.rbthieme.org/selected.htm):

____________________

Beware of false teachers who say, “You don’t need to name your sins to God; they were already forgiven at the cross.” With this distortion, rebound becomes irrelevant! This false doctrine attacks the very foundation of your spiritual life. To believe this lie is to live a life of perpetual carnality, reversionism, and eventually die the sin unto death.

The Bible teaches that [b:383dfd5164]your sins were [i:383dfd5164]not [/i:383dfd5164]forgiven at the cross[/b:383dfd5164]. Unlimited atonement, reconciliation, propitiation, and redemption were accomplished by the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. All personal sins of human history were imputed by God the Father to Christ and judged, not forgiven.

When are your sins forgiven? At the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, [b:383dfd5164]all of your [i:383dfd5164]presalvation [/i:383dfd5164]sins are forgiven[/b:383dfd5164]. The work of Jesus Christ redeemed mankind from the slave market of sin opening the way of salvation and forgiveness for anyone.

What about the sins you commit after salvation? Every time you name your sins privately to God the Father, those [i:383dfd5164]postsalvation [/i:383dfd5164]sins are forgiven. When you use the rebound technique, He is faithful and just to forgive those sins and purify you from all unknown sins. Rebound is the only means to regain the filling of the Holy Spirit, restore your fellowship with God, and resume your spiritual life.

Redemption is God’s provision; forgiveness is your option. Learn to make [b:383dfd5164]the distinction between redemption and forgiveness[/b:383dfd5164]; your spiritual life depends on it! You cannot have a spiritual life without redemption. You cannot continue your spiritual life without forgiveness. (Series No. 376, Spiritual Dynamics, lessons 1385 to 1395, bold emphasis mine)
____________________


[u:383dfd5164]Thieme says:[/u:383dfd5164]
“At the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, all of your [i:383dfd5164]presalvation [/i:383dfd5164]sins are forgiven.”

[u:383dfd5164]The Bible says:[/u:383dfd5164]

[b:383dfd5164]Acts 13:38-39[/b:383dfd5164] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you [b:383dfd5164]the forgiveness of sins[/b:383dfd5164]: And by him all that believe are [b:383dfd5164]justified from [u:383dfd5164]all[/u:383dfd5164] things[/b:383dfd5164], from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

[b:383dfd5164]Col 2:13-14[/b:383dfd5164] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, [b:383dfd5164]having [u:383dfd5164]forgiven[/u:383dfd5164] you [u:383dfd5164]all[/u:383dfd5164] trespasses; [u:383dfd5164]blotting out[/u:383dfd5164] the handwriting of ordinances [/b:383dfd5164]that was against us, which was contrary to us, and [b:383dfd5164]took it out of the way, [u:383dfd5164]nailing it to his cross[/u:383dfd5164][/b:383dfd5164];

We have already been forgiven of [i:383dfd5164]all [/i:383dfd5164]trespasses (not just the pre-salvation sins). The [i:383dfd5164]entire [/i:383dfd5164]list of accusations of sin against us was blotted out, taken out of the way, and nailed to the Cross, once and for all (not just a list of the pre-salvation sins). Our sins are completely removed as an obstacle between us and God, and can never come between us and Him again. As you said yourself, “God can not be one with sin.” That is why He must completely remove all our sins as an obstacle between us and Him, and completely forgive them and blot them out the moment we trust the perfect Sacrifice of His Son. This is the only way our God works—His work must be perfect and complete, especially when it comes to dealing with our sins.

[u:383dfd5164]Thieme says:[/u:383dfd5164]
“Learn to make the distinction between redemption and forgiveness; your spiritual life depends on it!”

[u:383dfd5164]The Bible says:[/u:383dfd5164]

[b:383dfd5164]Eph 1:6-7[/b:383dfd5164] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have [u:383dfd5164][b:383dfd5164]redemption[/b:383dfd5164][/u:383dfd5164] through his blood, the [u:383dfd5164][b:383dfd5164]forgiveness[/b:383dfd5164] [b:383dfd5164]of sins[/b:383dfd5164][/u:383dfd5164], according to the riches of his grace;

[b:383dfd5164]Col 1:13-14[/b:383dfd5164] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have [u:383dfd5164][b:383dfd5164]redemption[/b:383dfd5164][/u:383dfd5164] through his blood, even the [b:383dfd5164][u:383dfd5164]forgiveness[/u:383dfd5164] of sins[/b:383dfd5164]:

[i:383dfd5164]I did not always agree with Thieme’s conclusions. I do not know if what I just said contradicts Thieme.[/i:383dfd5164]

Thieme’s statements are outright contradictions of crystal clear declarations of Scripture, concerning the most vital doctrine of all—the work of Christ on the Cross. You have said that you don’t agree with Thieme on everything, and I certainly hope that you don’t agree with him on this. But it is Thieme’s teaching that we are discussing on this forum, and this kind of compromise of the Finished Work of the Cross needs to be exposed and refuted.

[i:383dfd5164]He always taught us to not be afraid to be original thinkers. Remember how he used to shout... “THINK! THINK! THINK![/i:383dfd5164]

The obvious implication was that if you disagreed with what he was teaching, you weren’t “thinking.” Anyone who disagreed with his “thinking” was a “loser” and a “jackass.”

[i:383dfd5164]Thieme never discouraged original thinking and personal insight.[/i:383dfd5164]

If constantly telling the people they can’t understand the Bible for themselves doesn’t discourage original thinking, I don’t know what does.

Liberty

[i:8864fd57aa]At any rate, even in the English, the confession of sin issue is clear.

I acknowledged my sin to Thee, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said "I will [b:8864fd57aa]confess [/b:8864fd57aa]my [b:8864fd57aa]transgressions [/b:8864fd57aa]to the Lord"; and Thou didst [b:8864fd57aa]forgive [/b:8864fd57aa]the guilt of my [b:8864fd57aa]sin [/b:8864fd57aa]- Psalm 32:5

If we [b:8864fd57aa]confess [/b:8864fd57aa]our sins, He is faithful and just to [b:8864fd57aa]forgive [/b:8864fd57aa]us our [b:8864fd57aa]sins [/b:8864fd57aa]and [b:8864fd57aa]cleanse [/b:8864fd57aa]us from all unrighteousness - 1 John 1:9[/i:8864fd57aa]

Once again, allow me to begin by pointing out the obvious. There is no reference to some kind of instant recovery of the filling of the Spirit/fellowship in either of these verses. So no matter how you interpret them, you still don’t have the doctrine of “rebound.”

Let’s keep in mind some basic principles of Bible study found in the Bible itself:

[b:8864fd57aa]1 Cor 2:13[/b:8864fd57aa] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; [b:8864fd57aa][u:8864fd57aa]comparing[/u:8864fd57aa] spiritual things with spiritual[/b:8864fd57aa].

[b:8864fd57aa]2 Tim 2:15[/b:8864fd57aa] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, [b:8864fd57aa][u:8864fd57aa]rightly dividing[/u:8864fd57aa] the word of truth[/b:8864fd57aa].

[b:8864fd57aa]Rom 6:14 [/b:8864fd57aa]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are [b:8864fd57aa][u:8864fd57aa]not[/u:8864fd57aa] under the [u:8864fd57aa]law[/u:8864fd57aa], but under [u:8864fd57aa]grace[/u:8864fd57aa][/b:8864fd57aa].

When we are studying any Biblical subject, we must consider the overall Scriptural testimony, as well as God’s progressive revelation of His great purpose throughout history (especially before and after the Cross). And, as I demonstrated in my post to GeneZ, the NT testimony to the completeness of the forgiveness and cleansing of our sins is undeniable. Yet you are ignoring this overwhelming testimony of the NT in favor of one scripture from the Levitical ritual plan of Israel that has completely passed away. We have to be careful when we going from one Testament to the other (pre-Cross to post-Cross). We can easily end up comparing apples and oranges. For example, in the OT, atonement was a [u:8864fd57aa]temporary covering[/u:8864fd57aa] for sins performed [u:8864fd57aa]repeatedly[/u:8864fd57aa] in the Levitical offerings; in the NT, the Atonement of the Cross is [u:8864fd57aa]final and complete[/u:8864fd57aa]. You cannot take practices from the OT Levitical period and try to enforce them after the Cross. We are specifically warned against this, especially in Hebrews and Romans. In addition to his confession of Psalm 32:5, David also offered sacrifices for his sins. Should we do the same? (Galiban claims that the OT confession of sins would “persist for the perfection of the believer,” but when I challenged him to back it up, he didn’t answer me.) The OT program that David practiced was designed to foreshadow the Cross and has passed away. It has been replaced by the New Covenant. You cannot use one or two scriptures from the age of Levitical rituals to override all these Scriptures from the NT. You might as well say that we should continue performing the sacrifices and observing the Day of Atonement. We do not have to deal with these issues of “uncleanness” before God in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and the confessions and offerings for cleansing, as the OT Israelites did. The sacrifice of the Cross is complete, as opposed to the OT offerings, which could never “make the comers thereunto perfect.”

I am not in any way making light of the OT Scriptures, as you have implied. Everything about the nation of Israel was a beautiful representation of the righteousness and grace of God and the coming Messiah who would save the people from their sins, from the holydays and feasts to the Ark and Temple. Israel was a shining light in a world of darkness and pagan idolatry. The God-given system of law that Moses received ensured equal justice, protection of family, and preservation of property for even the poorest, weakest Israelite, and had a profound influence on the Founding Fathers of our own U.S.A. (For a great book on this, see [i:8864fd57aa]The Hebrew Republic[/i:8864fd57aa], a.k.a. [i:8864fd57aa]Roots of the American Republic[/i:8864fd57aa], by E. C. Wines.) In spite of their periodic disobedience, God used the Israelites magnificently as a chosen people for the custody of the scriptures and for the eventual birth of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. There are many poignant practical examples for us in the history of OT Israel, concerning the obedience and disobedience of God’s people, and His patience and mercy, as well as His faithfulness in discipline and correction. I love reading the OT prophets especially, with their great testimonies to the love and faithfulness of God, and the many prophecies of our Lord’s Second Advent and His perfect Kingdom. But I also have to understand that I am not living in the OT. And God has commanded us clearly and specifically in the NT to not return to those OT Levitical practices, because in so doing, we would be denigrating the Final Sacrifice of His dear Son at the Cross. The ultimate divine purpose of the OT ritual plan has been completely accomplished, culminating in God’s greatest work, the Cross of Christ. God’s perfect will for the Levitical types and symbols has been fulfilled and FINISHED, and we should recognize this and glorify Him for it. When we try to perpetuate these OT Jewish confessions and offerings, we are essentially saying that God’s work was not complete, and we are therefore compromising the OT Scriptures. Far from “making light” of the OT Scriptures, I am honoring them.

[i:eda5df76f1]I'm not [b:eda5df76f1]avoiding [/b:eda5df76f1]your questions, by the way, I'm trying to start at building block one[/i:eda5df76f1]

Let’s review some of the questions that you have failed to answer:

• Thieme teaches dogmatically that all of us who don’t “rebound” will die a miserable death as “loser believers” (and there is nothing “metaphorical” about this fate). Is this true, ephesians? Yes or No?
• Will the loser’s forfeited inheritance always be there for all eternity to remind him he’s a “loser”? (Thieme teaches that this will [i:eda5df76f1]literally [/i:eda5df76f1]happen to the “losers.”) Yes or No?
• Will we be “shrinking in shame” at the Judgment Seat of Christ because we spent our life “out of fellowship”? (There is certainly nothing metaphorical about this.) Yes or No?
• Will the “losers” [i:eda5df76f1]definitely [/i:eda5df76f1]have shame at the Lord’s return, or will they not? What did you mean when you said “perhaps”?
• Is there, or is there not, a gazebo in the eternal Paradise, where only the “winners” can enter, and the “losers” can not? Yes or No?
• Do only the “winners” have the privilege of eating of the Tree of Life in the eternal Paradise of God, while the “losers” are excluded? Yes or No?
• If the filling of the Spirit is an “absolute” state of the Spirit’s control “control” of our soul, then how can we possibly sin again?
• Can you tell me what 1 Cor 3 means, or can you not? And can you show me any passage where spirituality and carnality are described differently than in 1 Cor 3?
• If our new nature is perfectly righteous, and our old nature was never in fellowship at all, then how can we ever “lose” fellowship? Why are we are never warned even once about losing fellowship? Why do we never see recovery of fellowship mentioned even once?
• Where is the connection between confessing sins and being filled with the Spirit? Or putting on the new man? Or grieving and quenching the Spirit?
• How can a Christian who believes in an ongoing confession of sins after salvation, but does not practice it moment-by-moment as Thieme teaches (perhaps once a day or once week), actually have a “meaningful” spiritual life?
• How can there possibly be partial forgiveness or stages of forgiveness of our sins? Are we forgiven, or are we not? Is the final, complete Sacrifice of the Cross final and complete, or is it not?
• Why did Thieme finally decide to deny the forgiveness of sins at the Cross? He was your “right pastor-teacher,” ephesians. You really should be able to answer this. I’m not even sure how many times I’ve asked this question now. But I will keep asking until you give me an answer.

You [i:eda5df76f1]are [/i:eda5df76f1]avoiding my questions, ephesians. Some of them only require a simple Yes or No. Most of them you’ve had over two months to answer. You do not need to take all this time to start “building” your doctrine before you can give a straight answer to some simple questions. This is no excuse for failing to tell me what spirituality and carnality in 1 Cor 3 really means. It is no excuse for failing to tell me if resurrected saints with the perfect righteousness of Christ, who are only promised great joy at His return, will [i:eda5df76f1]definitely [/i:eda5df76f1]suffer shame at His return. It is no excuse for not even responding to my questions about the [i:eda5df76f1]literal [/i:eda5df76f1]divisions between “winners” and “losers” in eternity that Thieme so dogmatically teaches. It is no excuse for failing to respond to my repeated challenges concerning Thieme’s heresy of denying the forgiveness of all sins through the Cross. Even after you “build” your doctrine from “block one,” you still will not have answered these questions. If you really do have answers to them, you should have given the answers by now. Yet, after several months of debating, you have not answered any of these questions, and you have refused to even discuss the most vital issue of all—are our sins forgiven, or are they not forgiven? You replied to Testy’s statements because they “really needed to be addressed.” Doesn’t the forgiveness of our sins before a just and holy God “really need to be addressed”?

[i:eda5df76f1]There are multiple doctrines that you can't prove by playing "show me the verse". How about a "one verse proof" of the Trinity? IT DOESN'T EXIST! (and please don't give me 1 John 5:7, a late Vulgate addition) Yet this is the very nature and being of God we're talking about. The doctrine must be derived, just like thousands of other doctrines. This is what systematic theology is all about.[/i:eda5df76f1]

This is a dangerous statement, ephesians. Similar statements have been made by many theologians who are teaching nothing more than their own intellectual speculations, and they have used statements like this as an excuse for the fact that what they’re teaching is not actually stated anywhere in the Bible. (My Calvinist friends are great at this. But they, unlike Thieme, will still show honor and love toward their differing brethren.) It is true that there are some things about our eternal, infinite God that are difficult for our human minds to grasp, like His triune nature. But there are scriptures that simply and undeniably present Jesus Christ, God the Son, as deity. And there are scriptures that simply and undeniably present the Holy Spirit as deity. And of course, there are scriptures that simply and undeniably present the Father as deity. And this is clearly tied together for us in 1 John 5:7, which is without a doubt a legitimate portion of God’s inspired Word (as I’ll demonstrate in another post).

Regardless of which doctrine we’re discussing (spirituality, the Trinity, or anything else), we must still show how the scriptures we’re citing actually support our doctrine (simple common sense, as I’ve already explained to Galiban and brainout). We can cite many scriptures and clearly show how they declare the existence of three Persons in the Godhead. However, you have not done this with your doctrine of “rebound.” You have yet to show how any of the scriptures you’ve cited actually teach “Confess your sins to be filled with the Spirit and restored to fellowship.” Your statement about “deriving” doctrines is no excuse for the fact that you have no legitimate reason for connecting fellowship with the filling of the Spirit, or “loss of fellowship” with grieving or quenching the Spirit. It is no excuse for your failure to demonstrate any connection between confessing sins and being filled with the Spirit, or to show even one scripture where spirituality is presented as an instantaneous, absolute condition. It is no excuse for the failure of Galiban, brainout, and yourself to give direct answers to legitimate, important theological questions.

The Trinity may be a mystery that is hard for us to comprehend, but the question of whether or not we can lose fellowship, and whether or not we need to keep confessing our sins to get it back, is not. We either need to practice this, or we don’t. Throughout the NT, our instructions for the spiritual life are very straightforward. The apostles did not write in riddles. They did not hide basic foundational principles vital to our whole spiritual life in little bits and pieces in different books all over the NT, and then expect us to somehow figure it out. If it was such a vital requirement for us to confess all our sins to be filled with the Spirit, they would have simply just told us. If this was the only way to access the power of the Spirit and put on the new man, they would have simply just told us. If it really was absolutely necessary to avoid discipline and shame, they would have simply just told us. Just like they simply told us to repent when we’ve fallen into sin. Just like they simply told us to diligently search the Scriptures. Just like they simply told us to pray. Just like they simply told us to gather with the brethren and minister to one another. Brainout would have us believe that an aggressive, no-nonsense Galilean fisherman like Peter would be “deftly” dropping “allusive” hints, without ever saying what he really means—which is really quite foolish.

[i:929bd1e23e]funny how I don't feel this oppression or burden, as I confess my sins in an ongoing manner daily[/i:929bd1e23e]

If that is the case, then you are not practicing “rebound” consistent with Thieme’s teaching. Allow me to repeat my previous statements describing the ramifications of “rebound” (which, of course, you have not responded to):

[u:929bd1e23e]From my 03/05 post:[/u:929bd1e23e]
According to your doctrine, [i:929bd1e23e]at any moment [/i:929bd1e23e]during every day of our lives we could lose our access to God. We all have a nature in us that is utterly sinful, through-and-through. And we are accountable to a holy God in many ways concerning our conduct—even more so as Christians, because we commit many “sins of omission”; not only do we disobey God by doing things we [i:929bd1e23e]should [u:929bd1e23e]not[/u:929bd1e23e] do[/i:929bd1e23e], but we also very often [i:929bd1e23e]fail to do things[/i:929bd1e23e] that we [i:929bd1e23e]should do[/i:929bd1e23e]. And according to Thieme’s doctrine, [i:929bd1e23e]any unknown sin [/i:929bd1e23e]breaks our fellowship with God; therefore, we are in imminent danger of losing fellowship at every moment during our life on earth. When we truly understand the ugliness and corruption of our old sinful nature, and what sin really is to God, then “rebound” becomes an impossible burden. Our “rebounding” must be “[b:929bd1e23e][i:929bd1e23e]constant[/i:929bd1e23e][/b:929bd1e23e],” “never-ending,” “continual,” “non-stop”... I’m not sure how many adjectives you need to get the point, ephesians.

[u:929bd1e23e]From my 03/05 post:[/u:929bd1e23e]
You ask [i:929bd1e23e]how often?[/i:929bd1e23e], [i:929bd1e23e]once in a while?[/i:929bd1e23e], [i:929bd1e23e]here and there?[/i:929bd1e23e], etc. What is ironic here is that you are the one who needs to answer these very questions. Since, according to your view, our fellowship can be instantly broken [i:929bd1e23e]at any time, without us even realizing it[/i:929bd1e23e], then “how often” do we need to rebound? “Once in a while,” perhaps? “Here and there”? You say that you rebound “before my Bible study, before I go to bed at night, and [b:929bd1e23e]at various intervals [/b:929bd1e23e]throughout the day.” How long are these “intervals”? And how much of your prayer, service, etc. during this “interval” ended up being meaningless to God, because you unwittingly cut the phone cord?

Your fellowship with God can be lost [i:929bd1e23e]at any moment[/i:929bd1e23e], and you could be [i:929bd1e23e]totally unaware of it[/i:929bd1e23e]—and everything you do will be a complete waste until you “rebound.” If you follow Thieme’s doctrine to its logical conclusion, this is not something that can be done casually with indeterminate “intervals” in between. And you still need to answer my question of how a Christian who only confesses his sins once a day or once week can have a “meaningful” spiritual life.

[u:929bd1e23e]From my 03/05 post:[/u:929bd1e23e]

[i:929bd1e23e]Most Christians [b:929bd1e23e]don’t even know about 1Jn1:9[/b:929bd1e23e], so are not in God’s System. [b:929bd1e23e]Their lives are wasted.[/b:929bd1e23e][/i:929bd1e23e]
(http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/RGBrief.htm#Point7)

[i:929bd1e23e]Most Christians [b:929bd1e23e]don’t even know about 1Jn1:9[/b:929bd1e23e]. So [b:929bd1e23e]their spiritual lives are comatose[/b:929bd1e23e].[/i:929bd1e23e]
(http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/TrueSpirituality.htm)

These statements are partially true. Most Christians know nothing of Thieme’s extreme view on 1 John 1:9. Even Christians who interpret 1 John 1:9 as part of the Christian life do not believe in this constant, minute-to-minute practice of confessing as many sins as we possibly can to stay “in fellowship.” They confess sins perhaps once a day, once a week, or even less frequently. Think about it, ephesians—if a Christian confesses his sins on Sunday morning and manages to stay “in fellowship” for a few hours before he sins again, what happens to him for the rest of the week? He spends almost all his time on this earth “out of fellowship,” “without the power of the Spirit,” and “outside the predesigned plan of God.” And yet you wrote, [i:929bd1e23e]“That’s why millions of Christians have been able to have at least a basic and [b:929bd1e23e]meaningful spiritual life[/b:929bd1e23e] over the last 2,000 years. Because, they read, and believed that Christ died for their sins, and then they read, and believed, that they could confess their sins as needed to God and be forgiven.” [/i:929bd1e23e]Come on, ephesians...how can you call this kind of existence a “meaningful” spiritual life? According to your doctrine, these people are only spending a tiny fraction of their lives in God’s will...and yet somehow they have a “meaningful” spiritual life? According to you, they have abandoned their spiritual life, including their prayer life, for most of their lives...and yet they’re not under discipline? Again, Thieme did teach that the [u:929bd1e23e]vast majority[/u:929bd1e23e] of Christians are [u:929bd1e23e]“losers” under discipline[/u:929bd1e23e], as do the webpages you cited. “Their lives are wasted,” and “their spiritual lives are comatose.” Are you disagreeing with your own sources?

What about brainout’s (and Thieme’s) statements that most Christians don’t know about 1 John 1:9, and therefore “their spiritual lives are comatose” and “their lives are wasted”? Do you agree with these statements, or do you not? Because these statements are quite different from what you said in your posts.

[i:929bd1e23e]Another man, in 1985, believes in Christ in Thieme's church, and then goes on to learn salvation mechanics, including [b:929bd1e23e]advanced soteriology[/b:929bd1e23e], concepts of propitiation, etc.[/i:929bd1e23e] [from your 01/28 post]

Denying the forgiveness of our sins through the Cross when we believe in Christ is “advanced soteriology”? Most of our Christian brethren throughout church history were not language scholars and never even saw a Greek lexicon, but at least they knew their sins were forgiven. The only response I’ve gotten so far concerning this teaching of Thieme’s was from GeneZ, who didn’t know what Thieme taught. And no matter how much you try to avoid the question, ephesians, you’re not getting away with it. One more time...

[u:929bd1e23e]The Bible says:[/u:929bd1e23e]
[b:929bd1e23e]Col 2:13-14 [/b:929bd1e23e]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, [b:929bd1e23e]having [u:929bd1e23e]forgiven[/u:929bd1e23e] you all [u:929bd1e23e]trespasses[/u:929bd1e23e][/b:929bd1e23e]; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and [b:929bd1e23e]took it out of the way, [u:929bd1e23e]nailing it to his cross[/u:929bd1e23e][/b:929bd1e23e];
[u:929bd1e23e]Thieme says:[/u:929bd1e23e]
“The Bible teaches that your sins were [i:929bd1e23e]not [/i:929bd1e23e]forgiven at the cross.”
“At the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, all of your [i:929bd1e23e]presalvation [/i:929bd1e23e]sins are forgiven.”

Which one is right? The Bible or Thieme?

Thieme states: “The Bible teaches that your sins were not forgiven at the cross. Unlimited atonement, reconciliation, propitiation, and redemption were accomplished by the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ.” How can reconciliation and redemption be accomplished at the Cross and not forgiveness? And you can’t use the same cop-out here that GeneZ uses, and say that forgiveness is not received until one believes. We also are not reconciled and redeemed until we believe.

Will you finally answer this question, ephesians? Or will you keep running away from it?

Liberty

[i:8a44fbd797]It's been said a million times before, but I still am completely amazed that Berachah is considered a cult.

Other things not discussed are the compassion Thieme had.[/i:8a44fbd797]

Ephesians,

People who are in cults stay there because they don’t realize it’s a cult. If they realized it was a cult, they would get out. And they can never understand why others call their religious group a cult. Cult leaders and cult members are usually quite sweet toward those within their own particular group. I’m sure Thieme was very nice to those who followed his doctrine. It’s easy to be gracious to those who are going along with you. But the true test of a Christian’s love and compassion is how he treats his brethren who disagree with him. Does he still accept them as his equals and his brothers in Christ, or does he insult and degrade them? Does he show them respect and honor, or does he dismiss them as “losers” and “jackasses”? What I, and so many others, have consistently heard from Thieme and other “doctrinal” pastors is not an attitude of tolerance and acceptance of other Christians, but an incessant tirade against all other Christians, with many sarcastic comments and belittling aspersions directed at those who were so “stupid” and “arrogant” as to reject their doctrine. This perpetual promotion of contempt and disdain for their own Christian brethren violates hundreds of scriptures and is cultish to the core.

All cult members will tell you how great their leader is, how wonderful their particular religious group is, and how it has changed their life. Sometimes, they have indeed given up drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, etc. But all they have done is exchange one form of bondage for another. The price they pay for getting rid of their overtly self-destructive lifestyle is the subtle spiritual bondage of falling under the control of their new religious leader. One day last summer, two Mormons came by my church on their bicycles and stopped to talk to a friend of mine who happened to be out in the parking lot. He asked me to come and join in the conversation. They strongly emphasized the change in their lives since they had discovered the teachings of the great “prophet,” Joseph Smith. But they were so blinded from the truth. They were so incapable of thinking for themselves. They blindly accepted everything their Mormon teachers told them, without question. And, worst of all, they do not know Jesus Christ.

I am truly glad that there have been positive changes in your life, ephesians. But you are not as “free” as you think you are. Since Thieme is the “educated scholar” who can “exegete the Greek,” and no common Christian is capable of understanding the Bible himself, you are really in no position to disagree with him on anything. (Are there [i:8a44fbd797]any [/i:8a44fbd797]teachings that you disagree with him on?) Since he was your “right pastor-teacher,” you didn’t even have the option to leave Berachah and attend another church. Sure, he may have told you that you were “free to leave,” but the consequences would be severe divine discipline, a miserable death, and an eternal status of “loser” (or “naked peasant”). It is contradictory to tell the people they have the “freedom to leave,” and then teach this kind of dogma. Thieme may not coerce the people by physical force as some cults do, but he accomplishes similar results through the dogma that he teaches. He completely convinces the people that they are helplessly dependent on him to interpret the Bible for them. (This by itself is enough to exercise tremendous power over people—e.g., the pope’s power over the people.) And he convinces them that there will be terrible consequences if they leave (as does the pope). This is the general modus operandi of the “doctrinal” movement—exercising your control over the people through your [i:8a44fbd797]doctrinal teaching [/i:8a44fbd797](rather than force), while presenting a façade of “grace” and “freedom.” And those who leave Theimite churches often face the harsh reality of being shunned by their family and friends, because they’ve been told to “separate” from the “loser believer” who dared to disagree with the great Colonel Thieme. I have heard numerous testimonies concerning this from people online and from people in my own personal life (some of whom, I’m sorry to say, I had once shunned myself, but am now reunited with). And, of course, there will always be people who come and go, as there are in every church, but this does not change the fact that there are many who are under the complete control of the pastor, blindly submitting to everything he says, and never daring to seek truth outside the “doctrinal” movement.

[i:8a44fbd797]Regarding multiplicity of teachers. Thieme never had a problem with multiple pastors. During the '60s he even had an associate pastor (Bill Munderland) who taught all the time.[/i:8a44fbd797]

The fact that Thieme had someone filling in for him is irrelevant. It doesn’t change the fact that the entire congregation is under his control because he’s their “right pastor” and they can’t understand the Bible for themselves. Thieme is still in complete control of what kind of doctrine is being taught. Just because he has someone else teaching his doctrine while he takes a break, doesn’t give the people any more freedom. The people may be allowed to listen to other “doctrinal” pastors, but they still have to submit to their “right pastor,” and they still can’t understand the Bible without him. And since all other teachers and pastors outside the “doctrinal” movement are “losers” who are “out of fellowship,” without the ministry of the Spirit, and headed for the sin unto death, then listening to them would only be a waste of time.

[i:8a44fbd797]he could have been voted out of there at [b:8a44fbd797]any [/b:8a44fbd797]time, the church has a Board of Deacons just like any other church[/i:8a44fbd797]

This may have been true in theory, but not in reality. Thieme’s official public policy may have been that he could be “voted out.” But he ensured this would never happen with his doctrine of “right pastor-teacher” and his Greek Game (i.e., the inability of the common Christian to understand the Bible). When you are convinced that you are helplessly dependent on your “right pastor” to teach you the Bible, and that there are terrible consequences for rejecting his “authority,” you won’t ever dare vote against him. The same is true for any deacons or leaders in the church. Their worth is measured by their loyalty to THE PASTOR. I saw this firsthand at my former church, having held a rather prominent position in the church staff. I attended many meetings, and I had an intimate knowledge of how the church and its leaders functioned. There was not one deacon or leader who dared to oppose the pastor on any issue. And, with a few very rare exceptions, the people in the congregation blindly accepted everything he taught because they thought they had to. Yet, he also said that they could “vote him out” if they wanted. Again, presenting a façade of freedom where there is no freedom.

In all fairness, I will say again that I recognize the fact that Thieme once taught the Finished Work of the Cross (although he no longer does), and I am sure that souls were saved. And for this reason, even after I left my Thiemite church, I was reluctant to call Berachah a cult. I still thought that perhaps those who called Thieme a cult leader were being too harsh. I saw Berachah as a church that had fallen into some extremely cultish practices concerning the Christian life after salvation, but at least they were teaching the right Gospel, as opposed to all the modern cults who deny the deity of Christ and teach salvation by works. But we also have to consider the fact that Thieme has carried his “rebound” fixation so far that he is actually denying the forgiveness of all sins through the Cross. When the power of a group’s leader has reached the point where he can outrightly deny fundamental truths of the Christian faith and compromise the Cross to such a degree, and still not be questioned or challenged by the people, then it is hard to argue with those who call that group a cult.

Liberty

At one extreme end of the rebound system, you find that "worrying is a sin".

To give an example:-

A long term Thieme student caught in the non-stop rebounding mechanics, may read critical material on Thieme (which is logical and rational). They may worry i.e. the lights may go on, that Thieme may have been wrong about rebound or some other teaching.
However, as worrying is a sin, and sin places you outside of fellowship, you must rebound.

and so you are trapped.

This is why the psychology of rebound is similar to techniques used in other "cults".