I understand your reluctance to continue visiting this website. I too have concerns about posting, as there are important privacy concerns, and reputations at stake here. I also understand your remorse about posting at this website, as I'm sure you are concerned about any adverse effects on your mother. There is also a possible underlying concern about "opposing" someone who is in the ministry, and possibly aligning yourself against "The Truth" of God's Word.
I spent years in the Thieme offshoot church and much time thinking and wondering about the doctrines taught there. I was brought up in Evangelical Christian churches, but was not unfamiliar with some of the doctrines at the Thieme church. Over time, however, I began to see the effects of the doctrines that were more unique to this church, on my husband and sons. When I questioned, I was labeled unsubmissive. I have many emails from these pastors, which would likely "blow their ministries out of the water", if leaked to the media. They claimed infallibility, total submission of the wife to the husband-up to and including submitting to abuse-and made unfair and invalid accusations to me and about me. (I even received a certified letter from one pastor, claiming I had slandered him, because I reached out to other pastors for help, and told them what was going on and what was being taught at this church. I did not slander, but in fact told the truth. Apparently this pastor was afraid of a lawsuit, and the letter was a pre-emptive action.)
I believe you have reason to be concerned about your mother. There is a book, by Leslie Vernick, titled The Emotionally Destructive Relationship. I believe it would fit the picture. I would encourage you to obtain and read this book. I now know that these pastors take a lot of very good and right doctrine, and mix it with "twisted", self-serving doctrine and intimidating behavior, allowing them to lord it over their congregations. This is dangerous, as there are many young lives that are being molded by sitting under these pastors. They completely leave out the message of the loving intimate, worshipful relationship that should exist between the believer and their Lord and Savior, and replace it with a message of obedience to authority, and worship of doctrine. The souls of men and women and young children are deeply affected by this distortion of God's "Good News", as they seek to conform to God's will. I believe these pastors should be exposed, but am not sure how to do this in a manner that would be glorifying to God.

Quote
agnosticchick
Thank you for the response. I don't find it necessary to name the stepfather's church. I felt instant remorse after posting, although I wasn't exactly sure why; I was merely expressing my thoughts and feelings, all valid. I came here seeking answers and support and, of course, I was concerned when I read all the claims that Berachah is a cult - and sickened to find the familiarity in the stories. I posted in anger and hurt feelings, and while I don't know for sure how or what goes on at home, my intuition tells me she must submit to his will, even if she doesn't feel right about it. What I know for sure is that I'm truly worried about my mother and have been for years. And now, it's the most horrible, powerless feeling not knowing if my messages are reaching her, to feel helpless, knowing it's my word against indoctrination. I suppose it's easier to believe she is a victim of mind control than to believe she no longer wants anything to do with me. The irony is I grew up to be everything she raised me to be, before he came around: independent, perceptive, skeptical, strong-willed, creative. I am who I am because of her. Anyway, I appreciate this forum for allowing me a voice, when I have been cut off from expressing the truth to the people who matter. I have learned valuable information here, while jogging several memories of my time at that church. I doubt I'll be checking back, as I have spent too much time already enmeshed in that soul-destroying worldview. I have my own life to get on with, my own family to grow and love. Om shanti was in reference to Eliot's final line of the Wasteland. The handle is because I truly don't know, but that's what this life is for- to search for answers, and I'm quite certain that if there is a God, S/He can be found in Love and not Doctrine. Peace.

To agnosticchick:

I assure you that I can doctrinally defeat this guy, just as I proved Thieme doctrinally incorrect so many times.

These feelings of helplessness and powerlessness are intentional by abusive cults(and abusive people in society) to break people down into submission. It is good although painful that you recognize those feelings for what they are, but do not let them dominate you.

You are obviously a wonderful person. I understand possibly why you felt remorse possibly because you were made to feel wrong in the cult enviroment so many times when you were not wrong. You were outnumbered then, but not here not now. This is a thiemite free zone. No thiemite zombie or thier clones can attack you on this forum because the moderators will throw them off this Forum. You should not feel remorse because you are much more correct than you realize. Also this forum regularly debunks false theology of thiemites. Those thiemites are much more wrong than they know.

I totally understand the need to completely walk away. I have seen some give up thier faith in G-d to seperate from Thieme's identity.

I know it is hard to appreciate all the wonderful things your mother gave you in who you are, when your mother is in her current condition. However, you have to move on and appreciate the good times with her for what they were and now start you new family. I know you will do well. You have a good head on your shoulders. If it is any consolation chances are thier RM/RW marriage will eventually fail (as so many have) for one reason or another on it's own. You can be successful now for yourself and your family and possibly in the future if your mother needs you you can be strong and help her from your world, not his. Your mother will also change when she sees grand babies.

You will always have a voice with me. What a lovely voice it must be. You are so strong.

Thank you for your touching story.

Truthtesty

Truthtesty@hotmail.com


To Touchsmart,

You said:

TouchSmart quote:"I believe these pastors should be exposed, but am not sure how to do this in a manner that would be glorifying to God"

I think this may be helpful Ist Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

[biblos.com] [biblos.com]

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2011 12:02PM by Truthtesty.

well what just exactly are you 'expecting'? I can tell you what you should expect out of a pastor faithful to the LOrd. And I can certainly tell you what happens when he isn't, namely the spiritual mess that Christendom currently suffers and the loss of freedoms we have experienced.

Quite simply, a faithful pastor studies and teaches daily, as in any profession at which one might embark upon and be successful. Why do you think the pastorate should be any different? What did Paul tell Timothy but to 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If a pastor is willing to do this, and few are, even if he does err, the Holy Spirit has something to work with and he will stand. If he insists on distractions, he will fail, regardless of how 'doctrinally sound' he is.

Brian L , San Diego

hermeneutica:

Please stay on topic.

The topic here is "R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr."

This is not a thread to discuss religion or churches generally and preaching is prohibited by the rules you agreed to before posting at this message board.

Quote
hermeneutica
well what just exactly are you 'expecting'? I can tell you what you should expect out of a pastor faithful to the LOrd. And I can certainly tell you what happens when he isn't, namely the spiritual mess that Christendom currently suffers and the loss of freedoms we have experienced.

Quite simply, a faithful pastor studies and teaches daily, as in any profession at which one might embark upon and be successful. Why do you think the pastorate should be any different? What did Paul tell Timothy but to 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If a pastor is willing to do this, and few are, even if he does err, the Holy Spirit has something to work with and he will stand. If he insists on distractions, he will fail, regardless of how 'doctrinally sound' he is.

To the Forum:


hermeneutica is a thiemite.

The "irresponsible arrogant false attitude that a pastor or teacher can do no wrong, but if they do, it doesn't matter" is simply not biblical. I suggest hermeneutica check the log in his own eye before falsely elevating himself to the position of the Holy Spirit to try to judge all Christendom as being a "spiritual mess"

Here's what may help.

Actually it's "correctly traversing", not "rightly dividing" [biblos.com]

On Thieme's false teachings on freedom or "loss of freedoms", I suggest reading Dr. Wall's dissertation ( [withchrist.org] ):

" A significant problem involved in Thieme's teaching on evil is his exegetical approach to the Hebrew and Greek words for evil. For example, Thieme stretches the point to call "evil" in Genesis 15:20 "satanic policy." In this case "evil" clearly carries with it a common connotation of harm. It is also an application of his weak methodology when Thieme concludes that Romans 13:3,4 teaches that the laws of divine establishment protect the believer and the human race from evil (i.e. Satan's policy in the world). The passage is talking about governmental authorities, and evil refers to harm done to people living under these authorities. It also seems that Thieme has forced his political prejudices on the Scriptures under the guise of the doctrine of evil. For example, he claims that Israel's "waiting for good" in Micah 1:12 involved ignoring the word of God andwaiting for socialism. 141 Keil and Delitzsch clarify what the phrase actually means in its context:
The inhabitants of Maroth writhe (chalah, from chul, to writhe with pain, like a woman in childbirth), because they are also smitten with the calamity, when it comes down to Jerusalem. Letov, "on account of the good," which they have lost, or are about to lose.142 In other words, the thrust of the passage is not that the people of Maroth were evil for waiting for socialism, but that they were waiting as one writhing in pain on account of the loss of the good.
141 Thieme tape, "II Samuel 7:13."
142 C.F. Keil and Franz Delitzsch, "The Minor Prophets," in vol. 6: Ezekiel 25 to Malachi, Old
Testament Commentaries, 6 vols. n.p.; reprint ed. (Grand Rapids: Associated Publishers and Authors, Inc., n.d.) pp.821,22.
69
Another observation should be made relative to the doctrine of evil. One of Thieme's determining factors, as to what is evil, is the issue of human freedom. Anything that abridges human freedom is evil. Thus, Thieme can include many social and political movements and actions as evil. Though freedom can be looked upon as a blessing from God, there is no biblical basis to use it as a final determinative factor as to what is good or evil.143 Thieme's condemnation of modern social legislation also should include a condemnation of Joseph in the Book of Genesis for his famine relief political action. Obviously, the divinely directed plan of Joseph restricted the freedom of the people of Egypt.Furthermore, when Thieme categorizes altruism and humanitarianism as evil, he makes an unjustified leap in logic in his shaky exegesis of Luke 11:13.Jesus says evil men can do good things, not that good deeds are evil. This kind of teaching can produce both a critical attitude toward the good deeds of others and a basis for rationalizing one’s carnal callousness toward the needs of others. Finally, it is a mistake to categorize entire Christian organizations as evil on the basis of certain weaknesses in their methodologies. One might speak of the departures from scriptural principles in the methodology of a Christian organization such as Campus Crusade, or for that matter, of Thieme's own tape ministry.144 However, it is quite another thing to label the entire ministry of Campus Crusade or of Thieme as evil. In summary, we have seen that the primary problem with Thieme's doctrine of evil centers in his exegetical methodology that is, he forces his restricted theological definition of evil on many texts where it is inappropriate.With his definition and this methodology, he frequently makes unjustified correlations between his own political persuasion and certain biblical passages..."

One thing that christians should expect is christianity without the coercive cult. 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty" [biblos.com]


I just posted this however, think this may help:

"Ist Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."

An elder which may be a pastor a teacher or both is simply an elder. And? An elder is to be held to account for teaching false doctrine by 2 or more witnesses. The christian is to rely on faith not on a false system of doctrine or a false authority of an elder.

2 Corinthians 1:24 "not that we are lords over your faith, but we are workers together with your joy, for by the faith ye stand."

The christian stands by faith not by a particular falsely authoritative elder pastor or teacher.

The Holy Spirit has the faith of the individual christian to work with, with or without a pastor or teacher elder. The indivdual christian stands by thier faith, not by a elder pastor or elder teacher. For Thieme to have taught a false dependency on a particular pastor was simply false and not biblical.

Further the opposite is the case. Again see Dr. Wall's doctoral dissertation ( [withchrist.org] ):

"...Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."
Third, he gives a false impression as to the believer's personal responsibility relative to testing the reliability of teachers and relative to his own personal study. For Thieme, once one joins a church fellowship, he is to unquestioningly respond to the pastor's authoritative teaching and rely on this pastor to do his study for him. This contradicts the biblical example of the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and the clear exhortations to test the doctrine of teachers (I Cor. 12:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; Gal. 1: 6-1 0). It also contradicts the intent of the gift of pastor-teacher. According to Ephesians 4, it along with the gift of evangelist and the temporary gifts of apostle and prophet were primarily given to he church to prepare or equip the saints to minister and edify the body of Christ. It would seem strange indeed to think of one's being equipped to minister as a self-sustaining, contributing unit in the body of Christ, and yet unable to be selfsustaining in his own personal study of Scripture...."

I also suggest hermeneutica rethink the classification of a pastor elder or teacher elder, "as in any profession". It isn't a "profession" serving gentile authority for money. It's approved to present to G-d, not approved to present to man.


Truthtesty Truthtesty@hotmail.com

I sure appreciate the thoughtful analysis of a few of you concerning Thieme's hermeneutic. Though I am not as astute as most of you, I did grow up in this mess. And even more, I am the son of a pastor and nephew of a pastor who followed Thieme, at least for a time. Reel-To-Reel, illustration books, home bible classes, church 5 nights a week, I was there. I believe wholeheartedly, Thieme caused much confusion to my father and uncle. I believe my father and uncle were duped by the cult-of-personality. To me it is all very simple. Thieme wanted to do what many have done within the church. He wanted to make a new brand, create new terms and definitions, he loved power and so did the men who studied under him, those who then went out and pastored churches. But alas, the church is Christ's. It is not Thieme's, nor Piper, nor Sproul, nor Macarthur, nor D. Jeremiah, nor Walvoord, nor Ryrie, nor Scofield. Many names could be listed and quite frankly, I should never put Thieme's name in with those other men, whether dispy's, reformed, charismatic, etc...Thieme does not belong, but the point is, Christ will build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail.

Thieme had no oversight. There was not a presbytery, session, classis or council to discipline him for stepping outside of orthodoxy. He talked as if infallible, inerrant, without fault.

I thank God for godly men who study the Scriptures with humility and awe, who refer to commentary's often, who read, read, and read, and pray, pray, pray.

RW

I stumbled across this forum this morning and have spent several hours reading it from the beginning. I have not gotten through most of it. I intend to, however, as time permits, read everything that's been submitted over the years.

I was compelled to comment, though, because when I saw the name of the discussion and started reading, I was hit with so many mixed emotions, it was almost overwhelming!

I was raised in a Thieme-doctrine home. I have no memory of him and his teachings NOT being in my life. I'm 34 now, and have been away from this "Bible doctrine" for several happy years. I was horrified and yet pleased, because it provided confirmation that I was not alone, to read how many other people we given the impression, even if not in direct words, that Col. Thieme had learned and was teaching the truth, and that almost no other Christian pastors had a clue. I remember as a child having serious issues with so much that I was being told, but whenever I asked a question about something, the answer was invariably the same: "Don't ask questions. You must have faith. If you question the word of God, you're sinning. If there are things you don't understand, you're not meant to understand them, because your inadequate human brain cannot possibly conceive the intricacies and motives of God."

Wow. I cannot even explain how damaging that was. I was 30 years old before I started realizing what incredible guilt I had lived under for years! I couldn't tell you how many times I "rebounded" each day, convinced that every little thought or question I had in my head that might have asked for rational answers to a Biblical problem were actually mental attitude sins, and that I was building up scar-tissue on my soul!

I have seven brothers and sisters, and we were all brought up in this thinking. Since then, two of my brothers and one of my sisters have become atheists. I do not consider myself an atheist. Agnostic would be more appropriate. I do believe in things that are bigger than me, whether you call it a higher intelligence, or simply a collective universal energy, I don't care. I don't claim to know. My siblings who have become atheists are very, very resentful of the things that were crammed down our throats the entire time we were growing up. They are angry that they wasted so many years feeling guilty for questioning things they didn't understand. They feel anger that they were led to believe that Christians were really the only people worth knowing, and that our "brand" of Christians were really the only ones in the know. They're appalled by the incredible hatred, intolerance, and violence that is the result of religion in general, Christianity obviously not being the only one, but certainly not being historically exempt!

I, too, have these feelings. I do not hold anything against my parents. They were doing what they believed to be right. My mother is a fantastic, giving, king, generous, honest woman for whom I have immense respect and love! However, I am disturbed by the long-term after-effects of the teachings that came from Col. Thieme, and now his son, Bobby. I do not doubt them to be intelligent, good, well-educated men. I do not believe them to have taught the things they've taught in order to cause harm to others. I believe they truly believe the things they're teaching. However, I also believe they have caused far more damage than they have generated good.

The thing that I do feel resentful for is the fact that even though I've been away from Berachah's teachings for years and no longer even consider myself a Christian (which by the way, has nothing to do with the Thiemes or their teachings, but rather the fact that NONE of it makes any sense at all!), I still find myself struggling, almost daily, with the little things that were instilled in my everyday thinking. We were led to believe that so many things were sinful, from just about every emotion we had, every thought, and definitely every desire or participation in anything that was remotely pleasurable, to the study of or involvement in any other religion. We were taught that the reason people had stupid or incorrect political philosophies, etc. was directly linked to their lack of true Christian doctrine education. In other words, "If their spiritual thinking is all screwed up, the rest of their thinking is going to be as well!" I was led to believe, both by example and through direct language, that women were to submit to men. That when a woman married, all final decisions and authority were to be given to the man, because God had mandated that men are the head of the household. (Hmmm, could it be the Bible was written by men? Who liked being in charge? And wanted to keep it that way? Wow, what a concept!!) I catch myself thinking I've committed some sin and having this brief terrible thought that I'm building up scar-tissue on my soul! Then I feel like an idiot for still having those thoughts. Then I have a flash of guilt for having thoughts AGAINST those thoughts! It becomes a vicious cycle.

I do not believe that the Thiemes have ever intended to hurt or cause damage. However, that does not change the fact that they have. I don't think calling it a cult is completely fair, because I know for a fact that people are welcome to come and go as they like, without fear of intimidation, anger, etc. I have never seen that. However, I never cease to be amazed and appalled at the amount of unconscious cultish behavior and thinking that takes place among the "tapers." My mother and two of my siblings still listen to Bobby religiously (sorry, I had to use that word! Ha!), and despite the fact that they are all very caring, kind, generous people who give of themselves endlessly, they still have that snobbish attitude that they are among the few lucky Christians who happen to have found the truth, and that other Christians are misled and foolish! Wow! The scary and sad thing is, none of them have any inkling of the arrogance of their attitude. They simply believe it to be true! And I'm ashamed and embarrassed to say at one time, I felt the same. I have been SO, SO much happier since I realized what a dangerous, controlling, non-sensical thing the whole thing was!

Thank you so much to all of you who have shared your experiences! This has felt like a therapy session, and I look forward to reading the rest of the posts as I can!

2 Timothy 2:15 is incorrectly noted in a post above as "Actually it's "correctly traversing", not "rightly dividing" [biblos.com]"
Biblos.com under the notes in all of their Greek translations quote "orthotomounta ὀñèïôïìïῦíôá straightly cutting". except the Tishendorf translation which has ὀñèïôïìÝù rather than ὀñèïôïìïῦíôá (a present verb in lieu of a participle). Be that as it may none of the Greek translations uses "correctly traversing" they all use "cutting straight".

The verb means literally "cutting staight". The subject will give you what is being cut straight. To translate "correctly traversing" would require the noun for road or path which is not found in the verse. What is found is the word for "truth". Hence the verse says "cutting straight the word of truth". This obviously means as translated by translators as "correctly handling", "rightly dividing" or "rightly cutting" meaning you are appropriately handling the word of truth. To give the air of mystique by correcting someone that the translation is "correctly traversing" is in error of the image of the Greek text.

Thus the charge is to ensure that the workman, the one studying the scriptures, accurately teaches the text. Thus the workman is charged to "cut straight the word of truth" or "rightly divide" meaning the teacher has to know the various images, nuances, backgrounds and the like.

Lest one consider this pretentious remember it is important to be accurate in handling the text. One of the criteria one must adjudge their minister, pastor or whomever is by how they handle the scriptures.

Thieme did handle the scriptures a number of times in a cavalier way and our posts should not do the same.

The use of Acts 17:10-11 as an example of a believer's not submitting unquestioningly to a pastor's authoritative teaching is in itself questionable. If one reads the text you find that the Bereans are Jews attending the synagogue. They are not Christians in a church fellowship. They are in fact Jewish unbelievers from Paul's perspective and in need of hearing the teachings about Christ e.g. the gospel. Their nobleness stems from their willingness to search the scriptures and hear Paul's arguments unlike those in Thessalonica. It is not until Acts 17:12 that we find that they now believe. This causes the Thessalonian Jews some consternation leading to them coming to stir things up (Acts 17:13). Again a proper reading of the text rather than a cavalier approach is required. The use of the Bereans as examples of believers in a church assembly is incorrect.

What the Bereans do teach us is that unbelievers can search the scriptures, can read them and compare what for example Paul was teaching them. That this applies to the gospel would seem to be reasonable once we compare 1 Corinthians 2:14 about the natural man not being able to know the spiritual things and John 20:31 that someone reading John's gospel may believe that Jesus is the Christ.

The point being that unbelievers submit to the authority of an evangelist e.g Paul or John, to hear the gospel then they must search the scriptures to check the message (as did the Bereans acts 17:11) from which they by faith then believe in Christ for salvation. One would therefore consider that a believer in a fellowship must do the same. Submit to the authority of a Pastor (by this I mean give them a hearing cf Hebrews 13:7, 17) then check out what the Pastor has said against the scriptures (cf 1 John 4:1-3; Galatians 1:8-10). So the believer in a church is under the authority of a Pastor whilst hearing the preaching of the word (i.e. give them a hearing) but is not blindly to follow that teaching without checking it out by searching the scriptures. Thus when Thieme would state or imply that to question the Pastor was wrong he was wrong, it is incumbent upon all believers to do so. It is the responsibility of believers to do so. It is also the responsibility of Pastors to correctly teach (cf James 3:1)

On the importance of checking out what a Pastor, or any teacher, teaches can be borne out by reviewing Wall's Thesis quoted numerous times in this discussion thread. There is a comment on this page that reads: "A significant problem involved in Thieme's teaching on evil is his exegetical approach to the Hebrew and Greek words for evil. For example, Thieme stretches the point to call "evil" in Genesis 15:20 "satanic policy." In this case "evil" clearly carries with it a common connotation of harm."

If one actually checks Genesis 15:20 it says: "and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim". The passage says nothing about "evil" or "satanic policy". So Wall's point that Thieme has it wrong is in and of itself incorrect. When one looks on the internet for Wall's thesis you find this statement noted above on page 68 of his book "BOB THIEME'S TEACHINGS ON CHRISTIAN LIVING". If you go to Wall's original doctoral thesis (May 1978) "A Critical Examination of the Teachings of Robert .B. Thieme Jr. on the Christian Life" the same statement is made on page 117. Hence the importance of checking out whomever is teaching you that the passage they use says what they says it says. In this case the verse does not.

Whilst we should not assume what teachers are trying to saying as realistically we can only check out what they have actually said or written, it is my assumption that the passage Wall noted is a typographical error and should have been Genesis 50:20 ""As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Strangely enough it was not picked up in the original thesis, nor in the second or third revisions.

My point being that as individual believer's we are responsible to search the scriptures, examine them to confirm that what is being taught by our Pastor's and teachers is what the scriptures actually say. Too many believers, Thiemeites and non-Theimeites alike, fail to scrutinize the messages they are being taught, or preached etc. So when your Pastor preachers/teaches etc take note of what he says and read the scriptures to check it. If those who sat under the ministry of Thieme either in person or by tape or whatever applied this principle they would be able to confirm what he says is correct or not. What was not correct was the implication that as believers in the pews you cannot study for yourself, it is incumbent upon you to do so.