Truthtesty you need to prove your assertions:
Truthtesy quote "Instead of truthful scholarly work much of Thieme's writings simply were falsifications for political gain, presented in an overly complex approach as to make it extremly difficult for the average christian to determine the lies presented.:
Can you prove to me that Thieme's writings were "falsifications foir poilitical gain"? Seems outlandish to me. If it were true and you can prove it then it would be easy to convince Thiemietes.
I agree with your comment on the overly complex approach" but I disagree it was used o cover what you call "lies", rather I think it was done to give and air of academia and thus impress the impressionable.

Truthtesty quote "Thieme was a disaster for most people's lives. Many people died unnecessarily because of Thieme either by becoming depressed and committingsuicide by his false teachings or hurt by being trained to become incompetent and dysfunctional in their humanity"
Can you prove "many people died"?

Please stick to verifiable facts. If you can prove these then it would provide tremendous ammunition in discussiuons with Thiemetes but I doubt any of it is provable. Before you accuse me of being a closet Thiemiete again let me stop you. I just want factual, logical arguments from the scriptures to refute Thieme's errors where they occur.

FROM ORANGE:
AUGUST 7 (above) on page 158
[www.alternet.org]

Seems to have been a disturbed man prior to entering the doctrinal environment.


Sistersoap says:

Thank you Orange for being the first person to post this information. I was shocked to learn this after two weeks had gone by since the day of the attack by Sodini, but it does makes sense. I have always said that the THIEME CLONE CHURCHES have greater potential for evil than Berachah itself, and that is saying something.

I would like to think that this story would blow the lid off the silence box regarding this "doctrinal" movement. It is hard to recover from a cult nobody ever heard of and the media ignorance does not help. "At least you're out" one person said to me, and that person had no idea how many times I have heard that conversation stopper.

Surely this murderer came to the "doctrinal" table with some loose screws to begin with. But I dug out my copy from the seventies of Thieme's book, THE INTEGRITY OF GOD which he mentions reading before the massacre and in thumbing through its pages, I recalled being terribly impressed at first by this literature. After all it was offered for FREE, so that must make it from God, right? WRONG. there IS A LOT OF FREE POISON OUT THERE, and the THIEMEPARK is full of it.

It would be great to see Orange and Testy and others on the Dr. Phil show talking about this cult, and this KIND OF CULT since it really looks so normal from the outside. Dr.Phil has had several programs dealing with cults lately, the kind which builds walls, encourages molesting of children (and that has happened in at least one THIEME CLONE CHURCH that I am aware of). OUR COMPOUND WAS IN OUR HEADS instead of around Berachah in Houston TX. We walked around the unsuspecting public minding our own business, quietly devoted to our god like teacher, as isolated spiritually and mentally as the cult members inside the physical walls and nobody was the wiser. We did not k now we were COMPOUNDED inside. We thought we WERE FREE. Sodini was not a free man in his head, and his brand of THIEME CLONE CHURCH HAD A HAND in pushing him over his personal cliff. Thieme's group flies under the radar of most cult watchers because it does look so normal on the outside.

Sodini's former Thieme church has removed their doctrinal statement from their web site for revision. I wonder what they are changing and why? Maybe other members or former members will speak up about this.

Meanwhile I still struggle with an inability to feel God's love. It often seems very unreal to me and I find myself very discouraged by this. I think that it must be my personal deficiency, my bad luck, or just my own personal abnormality that I have to live with. It separates me from those who seem to have a real experience of Divine love. I am doing good to let my cat love me. Some day soon I hope I can open up to God Himself the same way. I was vulnerable before I ever had my first piece of Thieme literature, and though I thought Thieme was the best thing since sliced bread, that first piece of literature was the first step on a slippery slope that ended in the Slough of Despond.

Could Thieme have had anything to do with this? You bet. But he was not the total reason, and Sodini's time in the Thiemepark made things worse. The arrogant bitterness and hatred came though lout and clear. I don't need to ponder if Sodini was actually genuinely saved or not. God knows and will put him where he belongs with perfect justice. And I am not talking about Thieme's idea of Divine justice, I mean the Real Divine Justice which is equally balanced by His Love.

I do hope we will hear more of Sodini's TETELESTAI church and what they teach. It does not look good for them right now.

Sistersoap

ZEEBROOK SAID:
Did not know that I had to interrogate everyone? If you look at my moniker you will see I have only just joined this forum, read the last page and provided a comment on something I read which happened to be yours. So let us not get hung up on who has or has not questioned whom.

I repeat that what I am looking for is factual refutation of doctrines, comments etc. Something that I can present to Thiemeites within my periphery. Vagaries like I knew someone who once read an article and they were bad news in the local church is water off a ducks back to Thiemeites. However if you have something along the lines of that Thieme in his book "such and such" says 1+1=3 and this authority over here "mathematical genius 101" proves him wrong, this has impact with Thiemeites. I have had discussions with local Thiemeites and given their "training" they need to be shown simply he says this, the bible clearly in this verse says that.

An example of proving "right man right woman" wrong is to use 1 Corinthians 7:39 "A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord." How could Paul advise the woman to marry "whom she wishes" if right man right woman was a correct doctrine? If right man right woman was correct then she either already has married him and he has died so there is no one else, or if she is destined to have another right man she cannot marry whom she wishes, she has to find the next right one. If right man right woman is wrong then this verse makes complete sense she can marry whomever she wishes provided he is a believer ("in the Lord"). Show this to a Thiemiete and after they have finished fulminating they are unable to worm their way out of it. Then you can show them other things to help them question what they have learned, how they apply it and so on.

Again I am simply looking for factual statements because anecdotal coments of experiences do not challenge Thiemeites who initally are resistant to anything that smells of emotion etc. Show them the Thieme's comments, show them the plain scriptures and you begin the process. Yes they will say the original languages say this etc but as someone pointed out in the Hemet website the argument of Tim Nichols on languages there are resources you can use to refute them.


SISTERSOAP SAYS:

Thanks for your interesting posts. You can find many such items in this fourm that do just what you are looking for. Try looking up the posts of Spiritual Liberty or SpirituaLiberty. His series and dialog with a Thieme defemder regarding REBOUND is not to be missed.

You did a good job on your point about Rm/RW. Thanks for weighing in.

Sistersoap

Thanks testy, I found it. I am not receiving notification from this forum when new messages appear even though I have registered to follow this thread twice in the last two days. FRUSTRATING!!!

Sistersoap

Truthtesty opined:

Quote

Once again we have thiemites enter this forum with false information.

Hey 'testy, I thought this forum suppressed personal slanders. I'll make a proposal--if you will assume I'm not a thiemite, I will assume you're not trapped in the gall of bitterness. Fair enough? ;)

I simply thought some folks would like to know the man died. I have no idea about the validity of his biography. It came directly from the Berachah website obit; I wouldn't waste either time or money to pursue the veracity (or lack thereof) of those points.

The doctrinal issues are another matter. Like you, I disagree with many of Pastor Thieme's "discovered" doctrines. But I do agree with more than a few things he taught.

We'll leave it there for now---I need to leave for my "non-clone church" Wed. night Bible study.

To zeebrook:

I am not going to keep going in circles with you on this. I asked why you did not question and you dodged why you didn't. The reason that I asked was because you did not ask orange for information that he could "prove". Ok? Youi have a relaxed standard for yourself for proof but then? For me? You would try to restrict my speech altogether unless I have proveable evidence. Stop the hypocrasy.

I am not going to restrict my speech based upon your criteria. Period. If you want to find evidenced irrefutable information to prove Thieme wrong, go right ahead. I have proven Thieme incorrect in detail many times on this very site. Feel free to review my work. But not all information can be proven. For example: Paul Revere did he have proveable evidence? No he rode up and down the streets yelloing "the british are coming..." Paul did not have a captured british soldier gagged and bound on his horse to "prove" to everyone that the British were indeed aggressing. Often things happened with thiemites which cannot be proven because there was no taperecorder, camera, video camera etc... available. That's a simple fact of life.

Of course Thieme's aggressive verbal attacks falsifications and thus lies on the "Blood of Christ" and thus "bleeding heart liberals was political (for neocon gain). I went into detail about Thieme's falsification of Baur and Arndt's greek - english lexicon, Dr. Walvoord's view (with evidence) , Dr. Chafer
(With evidence), and evidence that Thieme sided with REAL nazi socialists Doktors Gerhard kittle and Johannes Behm's butchered explanation of the "Blood of Christ". As much as Thieme spoke against "Socialism" Thieme never mentioned once Kittle and Behm's political affiliations with Adolp Hitler. (For political gain or certainly for avoiding political loss)

Another such example of Thieme lying about the Word of -od for political gain is brotherly love: "For example: "Brotherly love" per Dr. Wall: Even if Thieme were correct in his passive definition of agape, his approach to the doctrine of love would still be unbalanced. For the New Testament writers used compound forms of philos to exhort the believers in their relationship one toward another: philadelphia (brotherly love), philostorgos (family affection), and philoxenos (affectionate expression to strangers, hospitality). In Romans 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:9; Hebrews 13:1; and 1 Peter 1:22, these terms are clearly used with reference to the relationships between believers in general, not just between close friends for family members. It is also interesting to note that Peter closely ties agape with philadelphia in 2 Peter 1:7. His point is that as you grow in brotherly love (affection) in the body of Christ, you can more readily give to one another volitionally. Biblical love is clearly more than Thieme's relaxed mental attitude.One other error should also be pointed out. Thieme wrongly encourages his people to build friendships on the basis of commitment to his teaching. A study of the scriptural contexts where the words for "friend" are used does not reveal such a concept. On the contrary, such a view tends to contradict thebiblical emphasis of expressions of unity in the body of Christ (Eph. 4:1-3,1 Cor.12;Col.3:12-4). [www.texaswalls.org]

Thieme's attack on liberal "brotherly love" is an attack on the actaul Word of -od therefore it is a lie for political gain.

And again the reason I suspect you of a closet thiemite is because you chose only to ask for evidence from what I said, and you did not question orange. Orange provided no cold evidentiary information to prove his assertion. Yet? You did not ask orange for the info and you agreed with him? This shows a possible Thieme bias.


Truthtesty

Hello Sister:

I am not convinced Thieme's "integrity of -od" did not cause this. Sodini said he was trying a new approach because he had chickened out last time. Is that not insane enough to feel it was "eternally ok" to commit mass murder of 3 innocent women and wounding 9 then committing suicide? Sodini definitely got the "eternally ok" idea from Thieme even if Sodini committed mass murder. That is clear, Thieme's writings did do that.

I have known completely normal people once then involved in the Thieme crusade, then losing their personality, becoming emotionally sick, becoming addictively and agrressively violent especially to weaker people especially to the "weaker sex".

I wonder was Sodini attack on these women due to Sodini's jealousy of women? Or a hatred towards women? Or a sick aggressive violent feelings or suggestions that women are to be submissive to "authority" are weak and inferior and must be conquered? Or something else? Was this violent ill-will obession with women created in the Thieme Knapp environment? I think so.

One thing is for certain Sodini was on some sort of trip by reading Thieme's "integrity of -od". This defintely was the center of his new approach and helped him "focus" and be successful where he had chickened out of mass murder before. I think it is safe to say that without Thieme's "assurances" in Thieme's writings, those 3 women would be alive today.

I like your idea sister. Ok orange you ready for Dr. Phil? LET'S DO IT! I think sister should also be there. We may need to video conference orange.


Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2009 08:17AM by Truthtesty.

Truthtesty, I did provide an explanation to you as to why I responded to your post and not Orange. Read what I wrote August 11. It was your "long bow" post that drew my attention. Far from dodging your challenge I did respond.

Your August 20 post has now clarified what you meant by "political gain". It is not the way I would define the the use of the term but that is not the issue, at least I now understand what you mean.

I agree that some things happen to people which they cannot verify. I am not dismissing that. I have said each time I am looking for information that I can present to Thiemeites. As you appear to well know if I present to them anecdotal information they will dismiss it out of hand. That does not invalidate the experience but it is, for my purposes unsuable. If I can show a Thiemeite here is what Thieme said (be it a tape or a book) then I can clearly show them but this is what the scripture actually says (by chapter and verse, or responsible exegesis from another theologican) then we can make an inroad.

1 Corinthians 2:11 says
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

The verse is clear that the thoughts of man are known by the "spirit of man" (human spirit). Now Thieme says that an unregenerate person does not have a human spirit and so is dichotomous. Once a person is regenerated he receives a human spirit (now making him trichotomous) according to Thieme. He says that this human spirit is the respository of spiritual truth. However this verse is very clear that a person has a human spirit to comprehend the thoughts of man. Very importantly in this same verse its says you cannot know the things of God except the Spirit of God. So in fact the respository of divine truth within the person is the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 makes it very clear
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

It is the Spirit of God in the person that makes the divine truth known, not the human spirit as a repository.

1 Corinthians 2:14 then confirms the issue
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Why can not the natural man accept divine truth? Not because he doesn't have a human spirit (v11 says he does have one) but because spiritual truths require spiritual ability which comes from the Spirit of God v12.

Now show this passage this way to a Thiemeite and you will get them in a flap because they have been told this says the natural man doesn't have a human spirit that's why he cannot understand.

This is what I mean by factual information that factually refutes Thieme's doctrinal position. If I try to explain to Thiemeites that so and so was abused by Thieme, or suffered emotionally under Thieme it has no impact. They fix on "doctrine". Show them doctrine and its refutation and you begin the chink in their theological armour.

So may I ask you to stop wasting your time and my time reading your posts of me of being a closet Thiemete. I have mentioend before I attended Berachah a long time ago, I have listened to Thieme's tapes, I have read his books, I have and still do debate Thiemietes. I attend a bible doctrine church which is not a Thiemete church, where the Pastor has been accused of being anti-Thieme but where Thiemeites do attend because the pastor still presents the best exegetical sermon in town. There is great fellowhsip in our church and this includes the Thiemeites. Most, not all, are open to hearing viewpoints but unless you can solidly refute them it is water off a ducks back.

Have to go, work calls.

Hi Testy,

You said:

Quote
Truthtesty
Hello Sister:

I am not convinced Thieme's "integrity of -od" did not cause this. Sodini said he was trying a new approach because he had chickened out last time. Is that not insane enough to feel it was "eternally ok" to commit mass murder of 3 innocent women and wounding 9 then committing suicide? Sodini definitely got the "eternally ok" idea from Thieme even if Sodini committed mass murder. That is clear, Thieme's writings did do that.

I have known completely normal people once then involved in the Thieme crusade, then losing their personality, becoming emotionally sick, becoming addictively and agrressively violent especially to weaker people especially to the "weaker sex".

I wonder was Sodini attack on these women due to Sodini's jealousy of women? Or a hatred towards women? Or a sick aggressive violent feelings or suggestions that women are to be submissive to "authority" are weak and inferior and must be conquered? Or something else? Was this violent ill-will obession with women created in the Thieme Knapp environment? I think so.

One thing is for certain Sodini was on some sort of trip by reading Thieme's "integrity of -od". This defintely was the center of his new approach and helped him "focus" and be successful where he had chickened out of mass murder before. I think it is safe to say that without Thieme's "assurances" in Thieme's writings, those 3 women would be alive today.

I like your idea sister. Ok orange you ready for Dr. Phil? LET'S DO IT! I think sister should also be there. We may need to video conference orange.


Truthtesty

RE your first paragraph above:

You could be right about the causative factor in THE INTEGRITY OF GOD. Perhaps this is an example of A PERFECT STORM the elements of which all came together to push Sodini to do what he did. It is very clear that he was convinced by Thieme that no matter what he did he would end up in heaven. The eternal security of the BELEIVER is Biblical. But the Bible also warns that not everyone who says they are saved is actually saved. It is possible to believe a false gospel and be deceived by it. False gospels do not save anyone. I have no idea if Sodini fits into this category, but I do think it is likely that he was mistaken. I don't see anyone truly born again WALLOWING IN AND APPARENTLY LOVING THE IDEA OF SINNING, WHICH IS WHAT HE APPEARED TO BE DOING: enthusiasm at the thought of killing is not a good sign. He was deliberately planning this act with relish at being able to "get away" with it. I suspect he was unpleasantly surprised at where he ended up, but I can't be dogmatic about it. I am certain that God did the right thing with Sodini and that anyone knowing what God knows about Sodini and his entire life would also be satisfied. The FRUSTRATION PRESSURE FROM THIEME'S TEACHING AND FROM THIEME CLONES certainly can drive a person to severe emotional consequences.

This man said, as you noted, that Thieme's book THE INTEGRITY OF GOD helped him FOCUS in preparation for his deed. I do think this is a significant correlation. But his suicide prevents us from learning anything further from the man. He was obviously quite frustrated by his seeming inability to attract the women he wanted for many years. I wonder if he sought out any mental health assistance?

And yes, I think this cult and others like it would be a good topic in Dr. Phil's series on cults! If Oprah can SKYPE guests who can't get to her show and interview them from afar, surely Dr. Phil can do it for our friend ORANGE. HOw about that Dr. Phil?


Sistersoap

Hi prebound, You said:

Quote
prebound
Truthtesty opined:

Quote

Once again we have thiemites enter this forum with false information.

Hey 'testy, I thought this forum suppressed personal slanders. I'll make a proposal--if you will assume I'm not a thiemite, I will assume you're not trapped in the gall of bitterness. Fair enough? ;)

I simply thought some folks would like to know the man died. I have no idea about the validity of his biography. It came directly from the Berachah website obit; I wouldn't waste either time or money to pursue the veracity (or lack thereof) of those points.

The doctrinal issues are another matter. Like you, I disagree with many of Pastor Thieme's "discovered" doctrines. But I do agree with more than a few things he taught.

We'll leave it there for now---I need to leave for my "non-clone church" Wed. night Bible study.

Thanks for posting the notice of Thieme's death. I did not know about it and was glad to learn the fact. I never rejoice when someone dies, as it is a most solemn moment and not to be a source of delight or satisfaction.

The validity of his biographical information IS VERY RELEVANT to this forum and the issues we discuss here. Thieme spun a number of yarns about himself and his organization swallowed them all. Propagating them is not an honorable thing to do. It is not surprising that nothing he said about himself would be challenged by his faithful followers of which I was one for many years, almost thirty years.

C.G. NUNT'S brief and factual biography of Thieme is very useful in that it sticks to verifiable public records and does not deal with any issues arising from his ministry and teachings. Hunt shows clearly some things commonly thought to be true are not true at all. Thieme TOLD SOME BIG ONES about himself.

Click here to see the book:
[www.buy.com]


So buy this book and keep it in print. We need it. Anyone interested in reaching Thieme followers should have this book to give out. It can be the initial "breakthrough" (pun intended) you are looking for to try to show dedicated followers that their great teacher had feet of clay.

I am especially interested in THIEME BIOGRAPHY because I had an amazing exchange on the subject with some of the denizens of DELPHI'S pro Thieme BIBLE DOCTRINE STUDY GROUP. They were shocked that anyone would want to write a biography of Thieme. They also said it was because Thieme did not want to take valuable time away from his studies. It was not a good idea for anyone else to write a biography of him either. They would have to interview Thieme to do it and that too would take up his time. I insisted that a biography would be very desirable for all interested in Thieme for any reason, and that it would be a good way to honor his life long work. I WAS TURNED DOWN IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS!

Doesn't that say a lot? I think so.

PREBOUND SAID:

The doctrinal issues are another matter. Like you, I disagree with many of Pastor Thieme's "discovered" doctrines. But I do agree with more than a few things he taught.

SISTER SAYS:

I can honestly say that Thieme correctly saw the need for verse by verse teaching through the Word of God. It is even rarer these days. He made a mess of it in the end with his peculiar doctrines and methods. His personal isolation from his followers and the rest of Christendom is reflected by the isolation he created for his listeners. He became more and more unbalanced as he aged. The recognition of this need in the Churches of this country was a powerful motive for Thieme to do what he did. But his cultic aspects grew from his personality and that was formed long before he arrived at Berachah.

The other thing Thieme got right has been mentioned before lately and that was his handling of GIVING. It was entirely voluntary with no chance of embarrassment or coercion.

But the things Thieme got wrong were so glaring that they posioned the good. THE MIXTURE OF TRUTH AND ERROR IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN PURE ERROR ALONE.

That is why I think people who see this erroneous teaching ought to leave him completely alone. You can find the truth apart from Thieme's terrible mixture. The method of exegesis Thieme used included his imposing upon Scripture what he "discovered" instead of clearly finding it there in the first place.

I first began to ask questions about Thieme's teachings when it occurred to me that all this special vocabulary and "categories" of his that took up so much time and space was simply not in the Bible. It never dawned on me before that. And when he told me not to bother to read the English Bible myself because I could not get truth from it, I NEVER EVEN BLINKED. I should have gotten up and left and never returned or listened to another tape or attended another "taper's conference." THE FACT THAT I DID NOT LEAVE AT THAT OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENT is a testament to the EFFECTIVENESS OF HIS CONTROL OVER ME.The real question I asked myself was: " IS THIS THE SAME THING AS TEACHING THINGS NOT IN THE BIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE?" And of course, the answer is YES, THIS IS THE SAME THING AS TEACHING THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE AT ALL.

That is mind control. Thieme did it. His control increased with every tape I listened to.

There is no telling what variations CLONE CHURCHES make of Thieme's teachings. I tend to believe that they can only get worse.

So as to your church, if there is Thieme doctrine in it, it is in trouble.


Sistersoap