To the Forum:


Thieme quote: "The spiritual gift of pastor-teacher must be exercised with authority (Tit. 2:15); therefore, monologue, not dialogue is the order of teaching" "Grace Apparatus for Perception" by RB Thieme jr [www.mustseethisone.com]

Understanding God's Government By Paul W. Syltie quote: "All Authority Inserted into Titus 2:15: The KJV reads: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee". In English, it sounds like Paul is telling Titus that he has "all authority" over the brethren-as a king or dictator might. The Greek words for "all authority" are pas and epitage. The latter word is used five other times in the New Testament (Rom 16:26, 1 Cor 7:6.24; 2Cor 8:8, 1Tim1:1, Tit1:3). In all these cases epitage is translated "commandement" and refers to a commandement of the Eternal. The incorrect use of "authority" makes it sound like Titus was the rebuking authority, not the Eternal commandments. Also, the Greek pas is translated "every" 117 out of 1.243 times. When pas is used with a word that trepresents a "class of items", pas refers to "every itme in the class." This verse would be much more consistently translated if it said "rebuke with every commandment". Titus was correct the brethren using every commandement of the Father and Christ. [books.google.com]

The Syltie quote is consistent with scripture and the authority hierarchy set forth by Jesus.

Epitage [bible.crosswalk.com]

Dr. Wall: [www.texaswalls.org]
Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."

I said once I'll say it again " YOU QUESTION THE PERFECT AUTHORITY OF JESUS, IF YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE CORRUPT AUTHORITY OF THIEME!
" [forum.culteducation.com]

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2008 09:28AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

There are 7 verses in the New Testament which use epitage. In 6 cases eptiage is traditionally translated "commandment", in reference to the commandment of G-d.

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting G-d, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1Co 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

Notice Pau's rhetorical nature. Does that sound like someone who speaks with "all authority"? Paul speaks with permission , in this case.

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

Again notice the rhetorical nature of Paul. Paul makes distinction between "my judgment" and "commandment of the Lord". Also, notice that when Paul says he gives his judgment it is done so by having obtained the mercy of the Lord to be faithful. Not deceitful for an extremist political agenda, but faithful.

2Co 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

Again notice the rhetorical nature of Paul making distinction between Paul's "words", and the commandment of G-d.

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of G-d our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of G-d our Saviour;

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority.

In all these cases epitage is used of the "commandment of G-d" If you notice the entire chapter of Titus 2, it is a list of commandments not of Paul, but of Jesus. So it appears Syltie the logic is sound and consistent with other Biblical directions. Syltie does make the error of saying " The latter word is used five other times in the New Testament (Rom 16:26, 1 Cor 7:6.24; 2Cor 8:8, 1Tim1:1, Tit1:3).", but you can see 6 other verses are listed in the same sentence, instead of 5. And it is 1 Cor 7:25, not 1 Cor 7:24.

Also, pas after "every item in a list" can be translated "every".

I think, Titus 2:15 with "pas epigate" should read: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with every commandment (of G-d )". In this case, Paul doesn't say speak with all permission (Suggnome [bible.crosswalk.com]), Nor does Paul say speak using "judgment" Gnome [bible.crosswalk.com] , but speak, exhort, and rebuke (to the sheep you are equipping) with every commandment of G-d. These are commandments of G-d, not Paul, in the prior list in Titus.

With all of Thieme's "corrected translations", rewordings of the Bible, and "greek training", shouldn't Thieme have noticed this? Shouldn't have Thieme mentioned this? Not if "it fits your agenda".

Who has "all authority" in any case? Is that not G-d? Does not satan "an angel of light" and his false teachers seek "all authority" and dominion? through the Bible and any other means?

Don't trust me. Test me.


Truthtesty



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2008 12:12AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Techincal note: In the Parallel Bible, which shows both the Authorized Version (AV) and the Revised Version (RV), Titus 2:15(RV) actually says for 8authority in the footnote/margin 8 GR commandment. [books.google.com]

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2008 11:55AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

To give a pastor/teacher/elder "all authority" simply does not fit with the authority structure of the Bible. Including all thing s previously spoken of "do not lord it over", "being an ensample" etc..., the Father is the only one with "all authority" and even Jesus was said to have been given authority by the Father (Matt. 28:18; John 5:27; 1 Cor. 15:24–28).

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 7, Page 28: THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is sent forth by both the Father and the Son, which fact indicates that He receives authority from those who send Him; He indeed exercises great authority in the world. He it is who restrains evil, who convicts the world, and who guides and empowers the believer (cf. Acts 13:2).


Looking at:

Acts 15:24.Forasmuch as we have heard , that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment

Acts 15:28.For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

I think we see the usage of commandments, by Paul (via the Holy Spirit), to speak certain things as authorized by the Holy Spirit, appear to have been being meeted out in time as per the the ability of the hearers not to be overburdened.

So in Titus 2:15 (in comparison with Acts 15:24 "we gave no such commandment"), it is likely that "all authority" is a commandment/authorization by Paul (via the Holy Spirit) to speak the previous list of things spoken in Titus 2.

It appears that Titus 2:15 has been throughout the centuries and unfortunately will probably continued to be used and abused for would be kings/dictators/cult leaders for subjugation of the masses to and for political gentile rule inside the Church.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Here is the authorization or charge again:

2 Timothy 4: 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

With all what? "with all longsuffering and doctrine."

Compare Paul's written charges to both pastors - Titus and Timothy:

Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. (commandment)

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Paul also said: Corinthians 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Commandment of who? Commandment of G-d, not the commandment of Paul

Did Paul say the things I command unto you are my commandments and G-d's commandments? No. Paul said that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Paul said "write unto you", not "command unto to you".

This is an authorization before G-d, not an equating of Paul's authority and God's authority. It is authorization before G-d to Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

It is the Holy Spirit which: Rom. 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.The Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

The Holy Spirit: groanings which cannot be uttered
The pastor is to speak and preach, not "groan which cannot be uttered"

The Holy Spirit : he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God"
The pastor cannot make intercession for the saints according to the will of G-d.

The pastor is to "equip the saints" and "submit one to another"

Truthtesty



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2008 10:56AM by Truthtesty.

TT,

PM sent to your inbox.

TextResource.pdf update:-

includes pre '96 C.A.N. reports

[www.4shared.com]

To the Forum:

Thieme's heavy involvement with CACC has been established. [www.schwarzreport.org] (This is about 6 months before Thieme's retirement from the Military Reserves.

A recent discovery in the magazine "Texas Observer" (And this is one month before Thieme's resignation from the military reserves) is the quote in reference to CACC "the tactic of this organization was to fuse Christian goals and rhetoric with anti-communism". "Texas Observer" December 30th, 1960.

Thieme did not just "fuse Christian goals and rhetoric to anti-communism" (which is a questionable concept in itself). Thieme replaced the correct meaning of the Word of God from the greek to english translation, for a pro-fascist anti-communist political translation. He repeatedly told you (inculcated/brainwashed you) that you and your honest faith in Jesus, that you were listening to the Word of God, from the greek which you could not understand, to english. (Thus the opportunity arose to replace the real meaning of the greek with Thieme's politics and prejudice). Who could tell the difference if they did not understand greek? You were told you can't read the bible for yourselves because the original manuscripts are in greek.

It is one thing to be a liberal or a conservative pastor, yet still translate the Word of God from greek to english and tell the exact truth of what THE EXACT translation means (regardless of political bias). But? for a liberal or conservative pastor to replace the exact translation from english to greek with pure political opinion? To say that "THE GREEK WORD EXACTLY MEANS THE PASTOR'S EXACT POLITICAL PREJUDICE? That is a FALSE TEACHING AND THAT IS A FALSE TEACHER. That is what Thieme did.

To replace the definition of biblical words with your own prejudiced political rhetoric? and to feed that to the sheep? That's poison and that's false teaching. (For thiemites: that's Thieme's human viewpoint replacing the Word of God, for Thieme's preferring anti-communism over the correct translation of the Word of God. It is an intentional distortion of the Word of God for anti-communism)

For example: "Brotherly love" per Dr. Wall:

Even if Thieme were correct in his passive definition of agape, his approach to the doctrine of love would still be unbalanced. For the New Testament writers used compound forms of philos to exhort the believers in their relationship one toward another: philadelphia (brotherly love), philostorgos (family affection), and philoxenos (affectionate expression to strangers, hospitality). In Romans 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 4:9; Hebrews 13:1; and 1 Peter 1:22, these terms are clearly used with reference to the relationships between believers in general, not just between close friends for family members. It is also interesting to note that Peter closely ties agape with philadelphia in 2 Peter 1:7. His point is that as you grow in brotherly love (affection) in the body of Christ, you can more readily give to one another volitionally. Biblical love is clearly more than Thieme's relaxed mental attitude.One other error should also be pointed out. Thieme wrongly encourages his people to build friendships on the basis of commitment to his teaching. A study of the scriptural contexts where the words for "friend" are used does not reveal such a concept. On the contrary, such a view tends to contradict thebiblical emphasis of expressions of unity in the body of Christ (Eph. 4:1-3,1 Cor.12;Col.3:12-4).
[www.texaswalls.org]

Why did Thieme attack the true definition of "brotherly love"? One reason is that "brotherly love" is liberal. A second reason is to change politics in America's liberal churches to fight communism. The same reason Thieme took Nazi doktor Kittel's translation of the Blood of Jesus and dogmatically attacked the traditional view of the "Blood of Jesus". (Which is in contradiction to Bauer. As I have shown Thieme even misrepresented the meaning in the Bauer Ardnt and Gingrich lexicon of the "Blood of Jesus" to attack the traditional view of the Blood of Jesus[forum.culteducation.com]) The nazis were the greatest anti-communists, Did Thieme think "why not borrow the nazi theologian doktor Kittel's definitions for terminology to fight communism?" From greek to english "brotherly love" is a Christian liberal social term. To show that you care about you fellow brother in Christ. And? it happens to be one ways to grow in Christ.
But no, Thieme's political prejudice was more important to Thieme than the correct translation from greek to english of the Word of God.

Dr. Wall is on to this. Dr. Wall personally handed his doctoral dissertation "BOB THIEME'S TEACHINGS ON
CHRISTIAN LIVING" to Thieme, but also Dr. Wall handed a personal admonishment to Thieme which is not public. I think Dr. Wall's doctoral dissertation is the watered down public version:

From Dr. Wall's dissertation:Thieme's personal disdain for longhairs, Pentecostals, homosexuals, soft preachers, "do-gooders." legalistic "fundies," ecologists, socialists, and those holding various liberal political positions is no secret, since he includes his opinions in these areas as illustrations of his teaching. A man has a right to his personal opinions, but a teacher of the truth of God, especially one as authoritative as Thieme, does a disservice to the Scriptures by dogmatically communicating his personal opinions alongside the revelation of God.
[www.texaswalls.org]

I think Dr. Wall stopped short in public. Although Dr. Wall does touch on it when he said "he includes his opinions in these areas as illustrations of his teaching"

The Word of God is the Word of God regardless of which side of the political line it may be on. It should translated in truth as to it's real meaning, not to the benefit of an extremist fanatical political agenda.

Truthtesty



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2008 10:19AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

One verse that I have seen that helps determine false teachings is:

1 John 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 John 2:27 Koine greek [scripturetext.com]

Didasko is used in all 3 english words of 1 John 2:27 for "teach" [www.laparola.net]

1 John 2:27 specifically states: "ye need not that any man teach you".

Teaching "OF ALL THINGS" is from the Holy Spirit, while abiding in Him.

Truthtesty

"Order the Basics series"

At times I have come across persons in the Thieme system, who suggest to inquiring minds that they listen to the Basics series of bible doctrine.
These are classes from the 1960's available in audio format, and to quote one speaker, were "very good".

Jump ahead a few years to the late 1970's and you will find that the environment has changed somewhat.

[tinyurl.com]

These are two classes which were cited by Thieme Jr. in response to a journalists questions about Berachah.

If you have been told to "order the Basics", then you would be wise to consider what environment you would have found yourself in during the pinnacle of this system.