Truthtesty,

I am going to leave one final quick reply. With this post I will have said everything that I have to say. I will leave the final word to you.

I did a "back of the envelope" estimate and I have listened to about 3,000 hours of Col. Thieme's teaching. This does not include the lessons we listened to more than once because we could not get enough new tapes in our monthly order. The only reason I mention this is so you understand how familiar I am with Col. Thieme's teaching vocabulary and approach.

I do not know what edition of Christian Integrity that you own but mine does not use the word "brainwashed" in relation to Eph. 5:25-27 or any other verse. The phrase "components of completed happiness" is completely foreign to me. I never heard Col. Thieme use that phrase and unless you can give me a complete reference including a page number you will not convince me.

I still contend that Col. Thieme was under no obligation to notify the congregation every time he taught something different than what L.S. Chafer taught. He did not build his ministry by claiming that he was completely faithful to the teachings of L.S. Chafer. One time I heard him say that every October 31st, on the anniversary of Martin Luther nailing the 95 theses to the door of the Wittenburg Church, he would pray and thank God for ushering faith alone in Christ alone back into the church. Does he then need to disavow Luther all of the time so Lutherans won't accidentally mistake him for one? I have also heard Col. Thieme speak highly of Harry Ironside who he knew from Dallas Theological Seminary. Did he then also need to make it clear on what points he disagreed with Dr. Ironside? He did not build his ministry on the backs of these men and it would have been silly of him to spend his time telling us every time he disagreed with them.

I understand that you don't like Col. Thieme and that is your business. Are there legitimate areas where you can disagree with him? Yes. There are teachers of the word who disagree with doctrines he taught and I respect them and their right to disagree. In the end, we are all responsible for what we believe and not what others believe.

The forum is all yours.

Glenn

To Glenn:

Glenn quote: Truthtesty

Thieme doesn't even get the majority of basics right from his teacher Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer.

Glenn quote: Okay, I guess I need to point a really "basic" thing out about this. We are protestants and Dr. L.S. Chafer is not some kind of dispensationalist Pope. So Col. Thieme's teaching digressed from his teacher's? I can point you to online forums where Southern Baptists are arguing with Southern Baptists, Calvinists with Calvinists, and Lutherans with other Lutherans. We Christians tend to debate things a lot and students will disagree with teachers.

Quote

Truthtesty: Again the "basic" concept that you're avoiding is that not every theologian who disagrees with another theologian creates a cult which persecutes the lives of Christians from a pulpit and violates the individuals Christian's faith.

Did you ever find the Thiemie quote?

Thieme quote: "And being "brainwashed" with His Thinking!" (Eph_5:26-27)

Are you going to "man up", face the truth, look me in the eye, shake my hand, and tell the truth? or are you going to run like a coward and create some falsehood of avoidance such as: Thieme is being persecuted by satan? To "not deal with truth?"

As the moderator said "Frankly, it's not a "logical thought" to blame "Satan" for criticism, but rather a way that many cult members dismiss anything they don't want to deal with."

You have a choice to defend the Word of God or defend the words of Thieme. What is it going to be thiemite?


Truthtesty

To Glenn:

I do not have the paperback version. I have a digital version. It does not display the page number corresponding to the paperback version. However, I uploaded the digital version here [www.4shared.com]. You and everyone else in the world can download this to your computer. Then you can open with Microsoft Word. Then you can search the text for And being "brainwashed" with His Thinking! (Eph_5:26-27). Right now, that is the best I can do. I will get a paperback copy and display the paperback page number on this forum, once I get a paperback copy.


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2008 02:31AM by Truthtesty.

To Glenn:

Glenn quote: I am going to leave one final quick reply. With this post I will have said everything that I have to say. I will leave the final word to you.

Truthtesty: What is your hurry? Stick around. You will learn something.

Glenn quote: I do not know what edition of Christian Integrity that you own but mine does not use the word "brainwashed" in relation to Eph. 5:25-27 or any other verse. The phrase "components of completed happiness" is completely foreign to me. I never heard Col. Thieme use that phrase and unless you can give me a complete reference including a page number you will not convince me.

Truthtesty: There apears to be 3 editions of "Christian integrity". [www.worldcat.org]

If you were really being completely honest about your "3000" hours of listening, then you would have heard that Thieme does use the term "complete happiness" quite often. 2 examples:

Thieme quote: Prosperity and health will abound (Isa. 35:56). Complete happiness, peace, and contentment will pervade the Land (Isa. 35:10) and violence will be virtually nonexistent (Isa. 60:18). Anti-Semitism by R.B. Thieme, Jr.

Thieme quote: Such a recalcitrant believer will enjoy complete happiness in heaven (Rev. 21:4), Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.

Glenn quote: I still contend that Col. Thieme was under no obligation to notify the congregation every time he taught something different than what L.S. Chafer taught.

Truthtesty: Then Thieme should not have referenced Dr. L. S. Chafer, Dr. Walvoord or any other theologian at all, if Thieme was too incompetent to repesent thier views accurately. A specific example of this is the Blood of Jesus. Thieme's off the wall view of the Blood of Christ was so crazy that Thieme needed support for it. So he misrepresented theologians views to get it. And? he got caught. Dr. Walvoord caught Thieme misrepresenting Dr. Walvoord's views [forum.culteducation.com] and I caught Thieme misrepresenting Bauer Ardnt and Gingrich p. 23 views on the Blood of Jesus. [forum.culteducation.com] [forum.culteducation.com]. I also proved that Thieme's teaching on the Blood of Jesus was considered satanic by Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer.

Sure people disagree all the time. No Problems. But Thieme was not merely disagreeing with Dr. Walvoord and Dr. Chafer, and Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich. Thieme tried to use them to falsify support for Thieme's erroneous teachings. There is an obligation to represent the truth for any Christian.


Glenn quote: He did not build his ministry by claiming that he was completely faithful to the teachings of L.S. Chafer.

Truthtesty: He did shove his Master's degree from Dr. L. S. Chafer, in every Christians face. So you need to revise what your saying. Thieme did try to build off of Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer. Thieme didn't claim he was completely faithful or unfaithful to Dr. L. S. Chafer. Thieme just misused Dr. Chafer for false support.


Glenn quote: I understand that you don't like Col. Thieme and that is your business. Are there legitimate areas where you can disagree with him? Yes. There are teachers of the word who disagree with doctrines he taught and I respect them and their right to disagree.

Truthtesty: It is not really about whether I like or dislike Thieme, it is about the truth. You know I hear thiemites trying to make Thieme seem normal or just like any other church, but that's not true. Thieme was a cult leader and used the Word of God to lace the poison of Thieme's neocon extremist rhetoric into the Word of God.

For example: Thieme quote: My hypothetical young prison mate soon learned that impulses, working against the grain, are very important in political prisons, that one learns to enjoy fighting city hall, to enjoy giving the enemy upside-down logic problems, that one soon finds him¬self taking his lumps with pride and not merely liking but loving that tapping guy next door, the man he never sees, the man he bares his soul to after each torture session, until he realizes he is thereby expiating all residual guilt. Then he realizes he can’t be hurt and can’t be had as long as he tells the truth and clings to that forgiving band of brothers who are becoming his country, his family. [19] Christian Suffering by RB Thieme jr.

Truthtesty: Summarizing Thieme "military political prison love with your band of brothers after a torture session" is "legitimate love" between men even to the point of men "baring thier souls to one another"

While brotherly love in church? As clearly stated in the Bible? Well Brotherly love in a church according to Thieme is satanic.

Thieme quote: This satanic good includes every attempt to solve the problems of life apart from God’s grace and Bible doctrine. It also incorporates every plan that is antithetical to God’s Plan: religion,” socialism, communism, political internationalism and “brotherly love,” altruism, humanitarianism, philanthropy, public welfare, revolution, “the greatest good for the greatest number,” governmental interference in divine establishment, coercion by legislation to name a few! Every deviation from Bible doctrine, such as reversionism, apostasy and legalism/ or any organized Christian program which attempts to sponsor spiritual growth apart from the local church is evil!Divine Establishment by RB Thieme jr.

*Note even by Thieme's own standards ("deviation" from doctrine), he would have to include his own false teachings.

The bible clearly states Christian affection with/in faith: See Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 198, Eph. 4:31–32, 1 Thess. 4:6, 9, 1 Thess. 5:11, James 4:11, Eph. 5:21, Phil. 2:3–4, 1 Pet. 5:5, Gal. 6:10.

What about brotherly love in church? Brotherly love is clearly stated in the Bible. But? Thieme has categorized brotherly love as evil and part of satan's plan. Why? For Thieme's extremist reich-wing political indoctrination program. And even if Thieme's attempt would've stopped communism? It still does not justify Thieme's false teaching of the Word of God. It is still false teaching.

The tortured thiemite does not expiate "all residual guilt". Jesus infinitely expiated all sin. The "human works" of "resisting torture" espoused by Thieme's rhetoric, DOES NOT EXPIATE, and does not encompass "brotherly love" as clearly taught by the Word of God.

Glenn quote: The forum is all yours.

Truthtesty: The forum did not belong to you or I. The forum belongs to the truth


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2008 04:27AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

From "Under God" By Garry Wills

"Yet on the first night I went to one of his lectures, he made three errors in his Greek (One of case, one of accent, one of aspiration) on the second night he made 2 (one of accent, one of spelling). When I talked to him about the Lord's Prayer. I asked what he made of it's famous crux--the meaning of epiousion. He bluffed, turning on a tape in his mind, going through his spiel on the Lord's Prayer, touching on every phrase except the one I had brought up--this from a man whose brief biography on the back of his books stresses how many years he studied Greek and Hebrew. I cannot judge his (or anybody's) Hebrew;but if it is no better then his Greek, it is a sham.
What does it matter? No one in his community knows the difference, as he spends hours forming Greek or Hebrew characters on his projected scratch pad, telling people that this is a "peal imperfect" and that an "aorist of finality." For them, he might as well be speaking in the "tongues" he derides as babble. That is the point. This foe of mystification is himself a mystifier, who has formed a cult around the legend of his learning. He never got his doctorate at Dallas Theological Seminary; he says he was too busy with his church in Houston. But at the church he was too busy to see the members of the congregation. What was he busy at? Studying the Scripture, he says. He was too busy studying the Scripture to write learnedly about Scripture. He does not submit his writings to his peers, or encourage intellectual intercourse with them. He rejoices in pedantry, in the paraphernalia of learning, but will not submit to the discipline of real learning. When he went to Houston, he told people he had received and turned down a Rhodes scholarship. When The Houston post printed this claim. Rhodes people assured the paper that there was no record of the award. Thieme explained that he was told he would have got a scholarship if he had applied.
[books.google.com]

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2008 06:46AM by Truthtesty.

To Glen,

I acquired the copy of Thieme's "Christian integirty" from this site [www.mustseethisone.com]. You can listen to the 1st film on the site and make up your own mind whether or not you think this person is someone who would deceive you about Thieme's documents. I suggest you inquire to Martin Kerfoot and ask him where he acquired his copy, if you have doubts as to the credibility of the document.

The 1984 hardcopy edition of "Christian integrity" by RB Thieme jr does have the subtitle "components of completed happiness".p. 182 As a matter of fact, the following paragraph is near identical to the online version that you can acquire from [www.mustseethisone.com]. The 1984 Christian integrity" by RB Thieme jr p. 182 says "And being inculcated with His thinking!", instead of "And being brainwashed with His thinking!".
Very slight word changes throughout the paragraph.

The warning is that Thieme closely associated "inculcated" with "brainwashed".

You can see this in other places as well:

Thieme quote: When anyone lives continually in the arrogance complex, he is inculcated with the thinking of Satan as the ruler of fallen angels before the creation of man. Anyone who remains in the hatred complex is inculcated with the thinking of Satan as the ruler of the world after men became his prisoners. (Isa_42:7) Christian integrity by RB Thieme jr www.mustseethisone.com

Thieme quote: You may have been brainwashed by human viewpoint such as, “We all have the divine spark,” or “We’re all brothers”; but that is the Satanic philosophy peddled right from the mouth of the devil! King of Kings and Lord of Lords by RB Thieme jr www.mustseethisone.com


It is is clear here again, that Thieme interchanges "inculcated" with "brainwashed" when addressing satan's thinking to the Thieme defined Christian.

The glaring question is Where does the Bible say that you are either "brainwashed" by G-d or by Satan?

Are you not responsible for your own choices? Is this not little less than "The devil made me do it? or "G-d made me do it"?

Where is your "Christian human" choice in the "Christian human's thinking? Where is your "Christian human" responsibility? Where is your "Christian human" INTEGRITY?

Where is your "Christian humanity"?

Are you to not have an intelligent "self-thinking" faith relationship with God? being responsible for your own thinking? Under the influence of your own "faith-thinking"?


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2008 08:25AM by Truthtesty.

To Glenn:

Glenn quotes:

3. Right pastor is another one where I will side with Col. Thieme on. Very few thinking Christians will deny that God has a plan for their lives. Different theologies will has variations on this but it is not uncommon. To say that God has a plan for my life and provides me with food, shelter, family, and friends but has not bothered to provide me with spiritual food and shelter (aka our church) makes no sense to me.

4. Col. Thieme did discourage his congregation from studying the Bible independently much more than he should have. That being said, God has given some men the gift of pastor-teacher for a reason and that we cannot replace that kind of teaching by just reading the Bible on our own.

Truthtesty: I will side with the truth. I advise you to do the same.

You dont just "go along to get along" when discerning the Word of God.

I challenge you Glenn - Show me in the Bible where it says there is only 1 right Pastor teacher? You can't. Cults however, do claim 1 all knowing unquestionable cult leader.

Who gave Thieme his human authority to teach? Dallas Theological Seminary thiemites say. But? Thieme has denied and seperated himself from Dallas Theological Seminary, in a formal letter. So where is his human authority to teach? You say the Holy Spirit gave him the authority to teach, but? You deny that the Holy Spirt can teach without Thieme's presence. Thieme grants himself the authority to dictate and inculcate to you what you believe.

You submit to the human authority of Thieme, not the Holy Spirit's authority. otherwise? you would not make such statements:

Glenn quote:we cannot replace that kind of teaching by just reading the Bible on our own

Truthtesty: Where is your concept of the Holy Spirit? Who's the better teacher? Thieme or the Holy Spirit? Easily disproved. If a child was on a deserted island and the child found a "King James Bilble" on the island would the Holy Spirit deny the child salvation and teaching because a corrupt human pastor was not present? No. There ian area of corruption in your faith. You are corruptly dependent on man(Thieme), not God.

Here again we see the incompetence and this lack of confidence "brainwashed" into the thiemite.

What's gonna happen? Is the spiritual world going to fall apart. Is G-d going to deny you? if you study the Bible on your own? Is the battle lost? Jesus provisioned salvation for the entire world for eternity, but for you to study with faith in Jesus and the Holy Spirit w/o Thieme, that is 'a bridge too far" for G-d? Are you kidding?

Your not "on your own" the Holy Spirit is there, if you have faith. But? You don't have faith in the Holy Spirit. You have faith in Thieme. You have been deceived out of faith in the Holy Spirit to teach you.

Here it is very clear, that Thieme has brainwashed/inculcated thiemites to believe that they cannot have relationship with the Holy Spirit and study the Bible for themselves. Without Thieme, the relationship between the Christian who has faith in Jesus as his saviour. who has faith and confidence in God and the Holy Spirit to guide his life, well? According to Thieme "Your not gonna get much out of it".

Thieme elevates his own repititious words and rhetoric, above the Word of God.

CULT

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1 Thess. 5:11 is addressed to all believers, not just 1 select beleiver.

Thieme's "Diotrophes doctrine" of "right pastor" is false and I challenge you to prove otherwise. [forum.culteducation.com]

You thiemites jump into this forum and make your hit and run attacks and then you run away. I stand here on equal "free speech" grounds. Who is running away? I am not running away.

You are running away.

Caeser quote: "Cowards die many times before their deaths, The valiant never taste of death but once." Julius Caesar (II, ii, 32-37).


Truthtesty.

To Glenn:

Glenn quote:we cannot replace that kind of teaching by just reading the Bible on our own

Truthtesty: And no one with a sound sober mind wants to or needs to. Why get unnecesarily confused and become dysfunctional? There is no "checks and balances" within Thieme's sytem, as with all cults. Thiemites go on for years never seeing Thieme's errors, if ever.

Dr. Wall quote: Fourth, Thieme's detailed analysis of the mentality and emotions of the soul is questionable, and his hasty application of his categorical definition to biblical terminology produces an extremely unreliable exegesis. His immediate inclination is to categorize the term, nous, as the left lobe and the terms, kardia and noema, as the right lobe of the soul's mentality. He has made a bold effort to develop tight doctrinal categories for the biblical terminology. However, as much as one would hope for such a clear categorical arrangement, Thieme has failed to accomplish his objective. First, the word nous (mind) means more that the souls perceptive, functions, (left lobe). It is the nous of man that Paul says serves God and can be renewed (Romans 7:25; 12:2), and thus is similar to Thieme's description of the right lobe (or heart).114 Second, the Old Testament word for heart (lev) cannot be defined nearly so precisely as Thieme's system does. For example, lev (heart) is used beside the word nephesh (soul) In Deuteronomy 6:5, and here it is clearly not viewed as a distinct part of the soul. Furthermore the emotions are repeatedly included as a part of the lev (heart)115 in 1 Samuel 2: 1 ; 4:13; Job 33:21 ; and Psalm 147:3, and Thieme's right lobe (heart or lev) does not include emotions. [www.texaswalls.org]

Thieme twists the Biblical concept of the "heart". Thieme misstates the Word of God for Thieme's extreme inculcation to control the "Christian human" emotions.

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

No where in the Bible is Thieme's false iinculcation of "right pastor".

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith

Think soberly. It doesn't say be "brainwashed" by "one right pastor" and only have relations with others unless you become a tortured POW and then? bare all to other POW.

"but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith"

Thessalonians is addressed to all believers in the Church of Thessenolica "edify one another", not just 1 pastor teacher edifying everyone.

Thieme twisted the clear interpretation of the Bible for Thieme's neocon political ideological cult. Thieme attacked "Christian humanity". Christian brotherly love" as stated in the Bible and practiced throughout America and the world, psycologists, theologians (Chafer's Blood of Jesus, etc...), and the individual Christian's personal study relationship with the Holy Spirit. Sure Thieme never put a "black hood" over your face, but were you not in stress position at Berachah? How many times have people testified to the extreme fear of moving an inch? coughing? helping a lady with her coat, falling asleep, getting up to use the restroom? People have been so scared to get up to go to the restroom they urinated in thier pants. I got up one time to use the restroom with my back turned to Thieme the audiitorium gasped. I turned around at looked. Thieme was staring directly at me. I looked Thieme directly in the eyes and then he looked down and he continued talking and I continued walking. There was extreme fear in that auditorium. it did translate to physical and psycological stress.

You can't even go to another Christian church which believes in "brotherly love", "Blood of Jesus" etc.., if a person believes 1 iota of what Thieme says.

Is this not Milieu Control.? This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Is this not psycological isolation?

You can't go to a psycologist:

Thieme quote: Man today continually strives for so many things because he has been brainwashed by psychologists and others into believing that improved environment will make him happy. That is as untrue as anything can be! King of Kings and Lord of Lords by RB Thieme jr. [www.mustseethisone.com]

You can't to a psycologist according to Thieme because a psycologist will brainwash you.

Is this not psycological isolation?

You can't practice "brotherly love" as clearly stated inthe Bible according to Thieme because? "Brotherly love" as clearly stated in the Bible is part of satan's plan. [forum.culteducation.com]

According to Thieme Christian men's felllowship(non-isolation) is reduced to "baring your soul" to a fellow tortured military prison inmate AFTER being tortured.

Is this not psycological isolation?

Where do you turn to for the formation of your own thinking faith relationship with God, if a person believes just 1 iota of what Thieme says? nowhere according to Thieme. You can't even depend on your own personal study relationship the Holy Spirit to check for Thieme's falsehoods, because "Your're not going to get much out of it". Thieme elevated his poor judgement over your own fiath-thinking with the Holy Spirit. Thieme brainwashed you into believing that your thinking faith relationship with the Holy Spirit, without Thieme was useless. Thieme disempowered the indivdual Christian and effectively cut-off the indivdual Christian's ability to "think soberly" for thierself.

Is this not psycological isolation?

Is this not Milieu Control?. Milieu Control -This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from (Christian) society at large.

Is this not Doctrine over person? Doctrine over person - Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the (Thieme's) sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
[www.csj.org]

Be careful what you eat - it might be laced with poison.

Truthtesty



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2008 12:53AM by Truthtesty.

Glenn quote: It is very apparent to anyone who listens to Col. Thieme that he does indeed put a lot of emphasis on the military. He considers it, rightly I believe, to be the protector of our freedoms. I cannot speak as to how Berachah was decorated with military emblems but it would not surprise me. I also don’t think this is a problem. One of the things that he taught was that we must be loyal to scripture and not tradition. As long as something (like hanging pictures of members of the church who were airborne rangers) is not prohibited by scripture then he felt free to try and start that as a (non-sacred) tradition. I would have to see the display myself to know what I would think of it.


Truthtesty: You don't think it is a problem? You don't know enough to make an informed decision. This is a typical excusing of Thieme, we hear from most thiemites. No one knew that? lol No one knew the US military protected America? Your kidding? The US military and the American people have always risen to defend the United States when in crisis. For Thieme to twist the clear interpretation of the Bible in an attempt to do anything: attempt to build a stronger military, attempt to build a stonger neconservative party attempt etc... It? is still twisting the Word of God regardless of Thieme's "human works". It is still false doctrine. Thieme was faithful to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon, not the Scripture otherwise? Thieme would not have twisted the Scripture for the military. Frontal lobe? did you ever wonder where that came from? It wasn't Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. I know the Frontal lobe is spoken of in the Special Forces itraining indoctrination of "the battle of the frontal lobe" to control emotions in extreme stress, pain, and fear states. See above Dr. Wall quote for Thieme's junk theology n trying to separate emotions from the heart and mind. For who's service? Thieme's junk theology "frontal lobe" is not better than Thieme's junk theology of EEG brainwave activity trying to prove the soul is in the brain. Which ? I proved that animals and fetus have EEG brainwave activity. And in doing so disproved Thieme's animal blood/"life is in the blood" vs human blood/"life is not in the blood" theory, because both animals and humans have EEG brainwave activity. Thieme is not a degreed psychologist, neurologist, or physiologist Thieme has no authority to speak in the area of the sciences. And? Sound minds question his words spoken about theology.

Have you ever heard of the Fulbright memorandem? Entered into the congressional record in 1961? Entitled "Propaganda Activities of Military Personnel Directed at the Public" ? In which "extreme right radical speakers" were undermining the Kennedy adminisration? And propagandizing the public in schools, churches and other venues? In seminars, "freedom forums", alerts etc... In which Thieme spoke at the "Amarillo Life line Freedom Seminar"? on Nov. 8th at 2:00 PM? Thieme's speech was entitled "Communists' Greatest Weapon: Brainwashing".

Speaking of hanging military pictures on the wall, that's kinda wierd in a church, but not hanging a cross on the wall? that's even wierder.

So where do you think Thieme's loyalties were? The Word of God? or to the Pentagon?

Also, a Military program to propagandize the American public is a violation of the United States Constitution. Ironically, all soldiers swear an oath to defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.


Truthtesty



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2008 11:20AM by Truthtesty.