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Truthtesty
To the Forum:

Perhaps I should rephrase that. No human authority should be "idolized" or held in front of the Flesh and Blood authority of Jesus. Certainly, the literal Shed Blood of Christ should not be disrespected as it is by Thieme. Thieme promotes himself and demotes the authority of the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

Truthtesty

Yes, but who is to blame? the idol or the idolaters?

The bible says that "idols are nothing." And yet it calls idolatry a sin.

radaph:

There you go again.

You seem willing to blame anyone and everyone, but Bob Thieme.

If people idolized Thieme couldn't he have ended it?

What did he do specifically to discourage such behavior?

Did he do anything that encouraged it?

Why would this be a problem?

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rrmoderator
radaph:

There you go again.

You seem willing to blame anyone and everyone, but Bob Thieme.

If people idolized Thieme couldn't he have ended it?

What did he do specifically to discourage such behavior?

Did he do anything that encouraged it?

Why would this be a problem?

I was in the same boat as this girl was, and I know what the true problem was. It wasn't my pastor. It was my lazy attitude. I didn't search the scriptures on my own, and compare what he taught to what the bible said, even though he repeatedly encouraged us to do so.

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radaph

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Truthtesty
To the Forum:

Perhaps I should rephrase that. No human authority should be "idolized" or held in front of the Flesh and Blood authority of Jesus. Certainly, the literal Shed Blood of Christ should not be disrespected as it is by Thieme. Thieme promotes himself and demotes the authority of the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

Truthtesty

Yes, but who is to blame? the idol or the idolaters?

The bible says that "idols are nothing." And yet it calls idolatry a sin.

COMMENT:
Thieme began the process of establishing his absolute authority by firing the board of deacons at Berachah the very first Sunday he preached as pastor. As Ron Enroth has said, "It was a harbinger of things to come."

Another useful observation came from Garry Wills' chapter on Thieme (and I do not agree with many of the things Wills has said otherwise):

Wills said that Thieme arranged his ministry so his only point of contact with the congregation was in the pulpit. He counseled no one, published in no peer reviewed or outside journals, or magazines or books. He submitted his work to no-one for any kind of review. Was this one reason he did not finish his academic program? He said it was because he was too busy studying and teaching at Berachah, his one and only church. But other men equally or perhaps even less "gifted" than Thieme have gone on to finish their programs while pastoring or working at other jobs. Why not Thieme?

Could it be that it was very comfortable to be the only person to "review" his material? Having no personal contact with the folks in the pew, could he have lost track of what people were doing with what he was teaching?

Everyone who stayed with this ministry for any length of time (30 years for me) KNOWS that THE COLONEL brooked no challenge, no disagreement, and did not even recommend writings of other people. He said this having come from Dr. Chafer's seminary and not recommending even Chafer's work says a lot. Unless he thought he was better than Chafer And judging by his high opinion of himself and low opinion of others in his field, I suspect he did think he was better than the founder of his seminary.

His claim to what appears to me to be almost popish authority telling us that we could not get truth from God's Word for ourselves, that we had to listen to him or another like him, at first one whom he personally had "trained", is DEFINITELY IDOL MAKING.

Biblical idols were STATUES or other WORKS OF MAN'S HANDS used to represent a "personality" (demonic) behind it. Thieme is a living man, who claimed much for himself and convinced his followers that he was the best and actually the ONLY ONE SMART AND BOLD ENOUGH TO TELL HIS FLOCK THE TRUTH....truths nobody else had seen before. Now this is not impossible, but judging from many years of personal experience, what came out was not equal to what was claimed.

I have come to believe that a man is responsible for what he teaches and he is in some measure responsible for what others do with what he has taught them. Hiding away in the church study over many years is irresponsible leadership....he gets to speak with SELF CLAIMED AUTHORITY OVER HIS FLOCK and THERE IS NO CORRECTIVE PROCESS AVAILABLE.

WHAT ABOUT ABUSES of his teachings in CLONE CHURCHES BY CLONE PASTORS? What of marriages broken by believing his claims of 'RIGHT MAN-RIGHT WOMAN", the privacy of the priesthood, and other beliefs that go beyond what Scripture itself says? What of families fleeing their home town having left a congregation where A PRACTICING CHILD PREDATOR preying on boys in the congregation was accepted and allowed to stay, and no one reported the offender or the offenses to the POLICE as they should have because the offender REBOUNDED? {Confessed his sin to God as per 1 John 1:9? What does that do in a group of Thieme followers? That sounds like a second generation idol to me. I do think Thieme COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE checked his giant ego at the door and TAUGHT FROM THE PULPIT THAT THESE THINGS OUGHT NOT TO BE GOING ON in any group following his teaching. And don't tell me it was because that clone pastor was INDEPENDENT OF THIEME, because his vocabulary and entire methodology was handed down from Daddy Thieme. You can't miss it unless you are blind and determined to see no wrong no fault no foul anywhere in the Thieme universe.

Mistaking Thieme for HOLY SCRIPTURE is IDOLATRY.

Don't tell me I misunderstood the teaching. I understood it then, and even more now.....and how it distorted God's character and the application of Bible truth.

The saddest picture I now retain of Thieme is of him in the depths of Alzheimer's Disease watching himself teach Bible Class hour after hour on video. If ever there was an apt illustration of idolatry taken to its last extreme, that says it all to me. My mother enjoyed all day weather channel in her dementia and was happy with it. But her eternal destiny did not depend upon what they said on that station. Unfortunately most Thieme followers are so loyal that they will and have followed their leader right over a cliff. If Thieme said it from the pulpit, it is BIBLE DOCTRINE and not to be questioned or corrected. And if you leave and stop believing everything he taught then God will get you with warning, intensive and finally dying discipline for negative volition to Bible doctrine. His teaching is BIBLE DOCTRINE.

And that IS IDOL MAKING.

Sistersoap

I think if you weren't hurt so bad, you might be more objective.

Sorry, his ministry affected you in this way. I know that in my life (and in everyone else I know personally who has attended Berachah) it has had nothing but a positive influence.

Who said he was sitting in his house listening to his own lectures? That's not the story I heard from his son. I heard that he is spending the majority of his days in prayer.

I hear some of these stories and I think maybe Col. Thieme had an evil twin, because I can't imagine that you people are talking about the church I grew up in. So strange that you listened to the same sermons I did, and got such a vastly different impression. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

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sistersoap

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radaph

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Truthtesty
To the Forum:

Perhaps I should rephrase that. No human authority should be "idolized" or held in front of the Flesh and Blood authority of Jesus. Certainly, the literal Shed Blood of Christ should not be disrespected as it is by Thieme. Thieme promotes himself and demotes the authority of the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

Truthtesty

Yes, but who is to blame? the idol or the idolaters?

The bible says that "idols are nothing." And yet it calls idolatry a sin.

COMMENT:
Thieme began the process of establishing his absolute authority by firing the board of deacons at Berachah the very first Sunday he preached as pastor. As Ron Enroth has said, "It was a harbinger of things to come."

Another useful observation came from Garry Wills' chapter on Thieme (and I do not agree with many of the things Wills has said otherwise):

Wills said that Thieme arranged his ministry so his only point of contact with the congregation was in the pulpit. He counseled no one, published in no peer reviewed or outside journals, or magazines or books. He submitted his work to no-one for any kind of review. Was this one reason he did not finish his academic program? He said it was because he was too busy studying and teaching at Berachah, his one and only church. But other men equally or perhaps even less "gifted" than Thieme have gone on to finish their programs while pastoring or working at other jobs. Why not Thieme?

Could it be that it was very comfortable to be the only person to "review" his material? Having no personal contact with the folks in the pew, could he have lost track of what people were doing with what he was teaching?

Everyone who stayed with this ministry for any length of time (30 years for me) KNOWS that THE COLONEL brooked no challenge, no disagreement, and did not even recommend writings of other people. He said this having come from Dr. Chafer's seminary and not recommending even Chafer's work says a lot. Unless he thought he was better than Chafer And judging by his high opinion of himself and low opinion of others in his field, I suspect he did think he was better than the founder of his seminary.

His claim to what appears to me to be almost popish authority telling us that we could not get truth from God's Word for ourselves, that we had to listen to him or another like him, at first one whom he personally had "trained", is DEFINITELY IDOL MAKING.

Biblical idols were STATUES or other WORKS OF MAN'S HANDS used to represent a "personality" (demonic) behind it. Thieme is a living man, who claimed much for himself and convinced his followers that he was the best and actually the ONLY ONE SMART AND BOLD ENOUGH TO TELL HIS FLOCK THE TRUTH....truths nobody else had seen before. Now this is not impossible, but judging from many years of personal experience, what came out was not equal to what was claimed.

I have come to believe that a man is responsible for what he teaches and he is in some measure responsible for what others do with what he has taught them. Hiding away in the church study over many years is irresponsible leadership....he gets to speak with SELF CLAIMED AUTHORITY OVER HIS FLOCK and THERE IS NO CORRECTIVE PROCESS AVAILABLE.

WHAT ABOUT ABUSES of his teachings in CLONE CHURCHES BY CLONE PASTORS? What of marriages broken by believing his claims of 'RIGHT MAN-RIGHT WOMAN", the privacy of the priesthood, and other beliefs that go beyond what Scripture itself says? What of families fleeing their home town having left a congregation where A PRACTICING CHILD PREDATOR preying on boys in the congregation was accepted and allowed to stay, and no one reported the offender or the offenses to the POLICE as they should have because the offender REBOUNDED? {Confessed his sin to God as per 1 John 1:9? What does that do in a group of Thieme followers? That sounds like a second generation idol to me. I do think Thieme COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE checked his giant ego at the door and TAUGHT FROM THE PULPIT THAT THESE THINGS OUGHT NOT TO BE GOING ON in any group following his teaching. And don't tell me it was because that clone pastor was INDEPENDENT OF THIEME, because his vocabulary and entire methodology was handed down from Daddy Thieme. You can't miss it unless you are blind and determined to see no wrong no fault no foul anywhere in the Thieme universe.

Mistaking Thieme for HOLY SCRIPTURE is IDOLATRY.

Don't tell me I misunderstood the teaching. I understood it then, and even more now.....and how it distorted God's character and the application of Bible truth.

The saddest picture I now retain of Thieme is of him in the depths of Alzheimer's Disease watching himself teach Bible Class hour after hour on video. If ever there was an apt illustration of idolatry taken to its last extreme, that says it all to me. My mother enjoyed all day weather channel in her dementia and was happy with it. But her eternal destiny did not depend upon what they said on that station. Unfortunately most Thieme followers are so loyal that they will and have followed their leader right over a cliff. If Thieme said it from the pulpit, it is BIBLE DOCTRINE and not to be questioned or corrected. And if you leave and stop believing everything he taught then God will get you with warning, intensive and finally dying discipline for negative volition to Bible doctrine. His teaching is BIBLE DOCTRINE.

And that IS IDOL MAKING.

Sistersoap

I'll be honest, I didn't read your entire thread before posting my last reply, because it just sounded like more of the same to me. But I've read it now.

Let me get this straight. You weren't a local member of Berachah?
I understand there were lots of "clone churches" out there. But can you really judge a man's ministry based on some bad immitators of him? Because you may say your clone church is evidence of his failure, but I know clone churches who have had an awesome impact for the kingdom of God.

We all make choices.

You criticize Thieme for not being involved enough in his congregation's lives. I criticize him for the same thing, and I criticize his son for the same thing, which is why I no longer attend Berachah church. But that is my choice. I do criticize pastor teachers. I make my choice, either to submit to their leadership or to reject it. I once accepted the colonel's authority and his teaching. Now I have a different pastor in authority over me, and I only accept the colonel's teaching at this point, and not his authority.

I disagreed with a few of the doctrines he taught. I thought his church should've been more like a family with closeness and fellowship. And because I decided I really needed those things, I left Berachah and found a church where I could have those things. That was my choice. No one criticized me for leaving. In fact, I would be extremely (mean EXTREMELY) surprised if anyone even noticed that I had left. And I was there almost 20 years!!
I garauntee that RBT III, or any of the deacons or church leadership didn't notice I had left.

He diligently taught what he believed to be the truth of the word of God for over 50 years, and all he asked in return was your attention. That is NOT a cult!!!

This is not a place to bash Christian ministries because of doctrinal differences of opinion.
This is a place to expose cults for what they are.

Your "clone" church may or may not have been a cult. I wasn't there, so I don't know.
But I was at Berachah, and it was never a cult.

I got the item about Thieme watching himself teach on video from the BERACHAH CHURCH WEB SITE on the update about the colonel's condition.

It might have changed since I last looked, several weeks ago.

Sistersoap

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sistersoap
I got the item about Thieme watching himself teach on video from the BERACHAH CHURCH WEB SITE on the update about the colonel's condition.

It might have changed since I last looked, several weeks ago.

Sistersoap

Well, it's been about a year since I went to Berachah or heard any updates, so you may be right about that.
But even if you are right, why assume that his attitude while watching his lectures is an arrogant one? Maybe he is just trying to refresh his memory, which is rapidly failing. You don't know, so why assume the worst? Is that how agape love works?

I am of the mind that if any pastor is at least preaching the gospel accurately, then it is quite counter-productive to the kingdom of God for Christians to persecute him, regardless of how many other doctrines he may be teaching inaccurately.

radaph:

"Persecute"?

The claim that criticism somehow equals "persecution" is a typical response from cult members defending their group or leader.

Again, you make Thieme seem very cult-like from the comments you post on this thread.

Everyone is to blame but him, everyone should obey and submit to him and if anyone is critical of Thieme it may be labeleds "persecution."

This all appears at worst cult-like behavior and dynamics and at best unhealthy submission and devotion to a human being.

<sup>Quote:
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Perhaps I should rephrase that. No human authority should be "idolized" or held in front of the Flesh and Blood authority of Jesus. Certainly, the literal Shed Blood of Christ should not be disrespected as it is by Thieme. Thieme promotes himself and demotes the authority of the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

Truthtesty</sup>



Radph: Yes, but who is to blame? the idol or the idolaters?

The bible says that "idols are nothing." And yet it calls idolatry a sin.


Truthtesty:



Thieme idolized himeslf and his false authority and fed poisoned meat (denial of the authority of the literal Shed Blood of Christ.)

The Bible says a lot of things it also says:

1 Corinthians 8:

1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ

Who do you think is to blame? You probably think Jim Jones who gave "physical" poisoned koolaid to his idolaters was completley innocent, And the poor ignorant slobs who drank the "Jones" koolaid and died, were to blame. Because that's what your suggesting here.



Truthtesty