Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Tommy Tsunami
()
Date: December 19, 2007 09:02AM
Well since you apparently have your affections in Rome, I understand why you twitch so easily when you believe someone has stolen your word. I find Thieme well within Orthodox doctrine. You simply have a more narrow definition.Quote
ORTHODOX
Orthodox:
You should be more cautious with the use of the term Orthodox. A better word would have been Protestant. RBT is as far removed from the true Orthodox Christian faith as Kenneth Copeland.
Well that is YOUR doctrinal view. But the greatest problem is that Thieme was ordained by a body and that ordination could have easily been removed so he did have a body to which he was answerable, not to mention he could have been voted out at any time. Hardly parallel to Attila the Hun.Quote
ORTHODOX
Orthodox:
He is also to answer to the whole council of the episcopate. The true Orthodox Christian Church is councilliatory in organization. Not the Attila the Hun setting himself up as the sole source of Biblical Teaching for a local congregation, much less individuals spread across the globe.
I do recall the Lord turning over tables and calling the Pharisees vipers. And a student is dependent on their Right Pastor. Thieme never claimed to be the Right Pastor for everyone and in more times that I can recall told those who don't believe he is their Right Pastor, they needed to find that Pastor. Of course you don't know what Nicodemus would have said or done, you can only set up a prejudicial straw man.Quote
ORTHODOX
Orthodox:
Is this your attempt at a joke? How many times did he belabor the point that every student was dependent on his Right Pastor for correct doctrinal teaching. Pity poor Nicodemous if he were to have attended Berachah and questioned RBT's teaching after class? He would most likely have been verbally assaulted and told to never come back. I don't ever recall our LORD treating even those out to kill him in such a manner.
And herein lies your disingenuous claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders. I find not one single post by anyone claiming INFALLIBILITY by Thieme, and in fact made it clear I don't agree with everything yet you CLEARLY ignore all of that reality to post that which is not true and has not even a hint of validity. Show me where anyone claims such infallible status for Thieme's teaching. Something tells me you have another agenda since such a simple truth as genuinely representing the thoughts of those favorable to Thieme does not appear to be high on your list of priorities.Quote
ORTHODOX
It is indeed unfortunate that those individuals who come here looking for answers as to why their Spirit is being troubled over the teachings of this man, should have to continually sift through the weak attempts by the world's Themites to make this man's teachings appear to be infallible.
God's blessings,
The weakness of others isn't the fault of R.B. Thieme and this is where much of the blame lies. But then, I have heard there is a seat in Rome where claims of infallibility rise now and then only to correct past doctrinal mistakes. LOL
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
ORTHODOX
()
Date: December 20, 2007 12:35AM
T Tsu: Well since you apparently have your affections in Rome, I understand why you twitch so easily when you believe someone has stolen your word. I find Thieme well within Orthodox doctrine. You simply have a more narrow definition.
Orthodox: You obviously and incorrectly have jumped to conclusions that I am Roman Catholic. A typical arrogant response by an ahistorical American protestant who believes his source of doctrine (especially Theimeism) is superior to any teachings of the historical Christian faith. Your definition is quite erroneous; the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons both lay claim to being orthodox as well.
T Tsu: Well that is YOUR doctrinal view. But the greatest problem is that Thieme was ordained by a body and that ordination could have easily been removed so he did have a body to which he was answerable, not to mention he could have been voted out at any time. Hardly parallel to Attila the Hun.
Orthodox: I am sure Thieme was ordained by a "body"; (so was Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, etc) however, as you well know if you study his past history, he demanded the resignation of the very board that had originally called him to Berachah after the first Sunday he was installed. He then proceeded to staff the board with his own hand picked lackeys that would offer no resistance to his method of leadership. Anyone who did question him was summarily dismissed, as anyone who cares to investigate or attended there for a number of years would know. This is hardly the actions of someone who listens to constructive criticism or counsel.
T Tsu: I do recall the Lord turning over tables and calling the Pharisees vipers. And a student is dependent on their Right Pastor. Thieme never claimed to be the Right Pastor for everyone and in more times that I can recall told those who don't believe he is their Right Pastor, they needed to find that Pastor. Of course you don't know what Nicodemus would have said or done, you can only set up a prejudicial straw man.
Orthodox: Speaking of straw man arguments; RBT was not the LORD JESUS CHRIST. The Gospel of John does indeed tell what Nicodemus did; he went to the LORD and questioned him concerning HIS teachings. The LORD took HIS time and gave him a very thorough explanation, not a public humiliation. Thieme never claimed to be the Right Pastor for everyone; but I can also recall the numerous times he loaded the language with quote: you might be able to get decent doctrine somewhere else, but it's not likely:unquote.
T Tsu: And herein lies your disingenuous claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders. I find not one single post by anyone claiming INFALLIBILITY by Thieme, and in fact made it clear I don't agree with everything yet you CLEARLY ignore all of that reality to post that which is not true and has not even a hint of validity. Show me where anyone claims such infallible status for Thieme's teaching.
Orthodox: My claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders is hardly disingenuous; the fact that the man clearly taught a false system of the Christian way of life and doctrine is apparent to anyone who can read the text of Holy Scriptures even if only in English; whether it be 16th century or 21st century. To base an entire system of teaching on his supposedly corrected translation and then extrapolate highly subjective principles based on his own political and personal viewpoints and call it Bible Doctrine is a total sham. You are in fact correct that RBT is not infallible, yet any time someone tries to point out a specific error (as certain individuals have done on this site) in his teachings, the Theimites are quick to rush to his defense. So, does any of his followers believe he has taught certain heretical doctrines? If so, what were they? Did he recant any or all of them?
I dare say if you were to post one you believed to be incorrect you would be besieged by fellow Theimites calling you a loser believer on the fast track to the sin unto death because of divine discipline for criticizing an ordained man of God.
The weakness of others as you say isn't Thieme's fault, yet the Apostle Paul instructed mature believers not offend the weaker believers because of their liberty they had in Christ. We as believers are truly our brother's keepers.
Orthodox: You obviously and incorrectly have jumped to conclusions that I am Roman Catholic. A typical arrogant response by an ahistorical American protestant who believes his source of doctrine (especially Theimeism) is superior to any teachings of the historical Christian faith. Your definition is quite erroneous; the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons both lay claim to being orthodox as well.
T Tsu: Well that is YOUR doctrinal view. But the greatest problem is that Thieme was ordained by a body and that ordination could have easily been removed so he did have a body to which he was answerable, not to mention he could have been voted out at any time. Hardly parallel to Attila the Hun.
Orthodox: I am sure Thieme was ordained by a "body"; (so was Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, etc) however, as you well know if you study his past history, he demanded the resignation of the very board that had originally called him to Berachah after the first Sunday he was installed. He then proceeded to staff the board with his own hand picked lackeys that would offer no resistance to his method of leadership. Anyone who did question him was summarily dismissed, as anyone who cares to investigate or attended there for a number of years would know. This is hardly the actions of someone who listens to constructive criticism or counsel.
T Tsu: I do recall the Lord turning over tables and calling the Pharisees vipers. And a student is dependent on their Right Pastor. Thieme never claimed to be the Right Pastor for everyone and in more times that I can recall told those who don't believe he is their Right Pastor, they needed to find that Pastor. Of course you don't know what Nicodemus would have said or done, you can only set up a prejudicial straw man.
Orthodox: Speaking of straw man arguments; RBT was not the LORD JESUS CHRIST. The Gospel of John does indeed tell what Nicodemus did; he went to the LORD and questioned him concerning HIS teachings. The LORD took HIS time and gave him a very thorough explanation, not a public humiliation. Thieme never claimed to be the Right Pastor for everyone; but I can also recall the numerous times he loaded the language with quote: you might be able to get decent doctrine somewhere else, but it's not likely:unquote.
T Tsu: And herein lies your disingenuous claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders. I find not one single post by anyone claiming INFALLIBILITY by Thieme, and in fact made it clear I don't agree with everything yet you CLEARLY ignore all of that reality to post that which is not true and has not even a hint of validity. Show me where anyone claims such infallible status for Thieme's teaching.
Orthodox: My claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders is hardly disingenuous; the fact that the man clearly taught a false system of the Christian way of life and doctrine is apparent to anyone who can read the text of Holy Scriptures even if only in English; whether it be 16th century or 21st century. To base an entire system of teaching on his supposedly corrected translation and then extrapolate highly subjective principles based on his own political and personal viewpoints and call it Bible Doctrine is a total sham. You are in fact correct that RBT is not infallible, yet any time someone tries to point out a specific error (as certain individuals have done on this site) in his teachings, the Theimites are quick to rush to his defense. So, does any of his followers believe he has taught certain heretical doctrines? If so, what were they? Did he recant any or all of them?
I dare say if you were to post one you believed to be incorrect you would be besieged by fellow Theimites calling you a loser believer on the fast track to the sin unto death because of divine discipline for criticizing an ordained man of God.
The weakness of others as you say isn't Thieme's fault, yet the Apostle Paul instructed mature believers not offend the weaker believers because of their liberty they had in Christ. We as believers are truly our brother's keepers.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 20, 2007 07:42PM
To the Forum:
Part of Dr. Wall's dissertation:
At the heart of Thieme's doctrine of right pastor is a questionable concept of church government. However, even if Baptist polity is accepted, Thieme has added some elements to the Baptistic view of the pastor which are clearly contrary to the biblical pattern and which produce some dangerous spiritual byproducts. We will examine Thieme's three basic distinctive concepts first; then we will list a series of dangerous implications of such a doctrine. Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person. Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."
Third, he gives a false impression as to the believer's personal responsibility relative to testing the reliability of teachers and relative to his own personal study. For Thieme, once one joins a church fellowship, he is to unquestioningly respond to the pastor's authoritative teaching and rely on this pastor to do his study for him. This contradicts the biblical example of the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and the clear exhortations to test the doctrine of teachers (I Cor. 12:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; Gal. 1: 6-1 0). It also contradicts the intent of the gift of pastor-teacher. According to Ephesians 4, it along with the gift of evangelist and the temporary gifts of apostle and prophet were primarily given to the church to prepare or equip the saints to minister and edify the body of Christ. It would seem strange indeed to think of one's being equipped to minister as a self-sustaining, contributing unit in the body of Christ, and yet unable to be selfsustaining in his own personal study of Scripture....
Sixth, as much as Thieme emphasizes the importance of growing spiritually, the application of the doctrine of right pastor actually has a retarding effect on growth. With the dependency upon one's right pastor, one is moved a step beyond "milk," but he isn't taught how to carve the meat and to chew it up. Students of Thieme who consistently apply the doctrine of right pastor easily get hooked on a "bottle of strained meat," that is, doctrine that has gone through the Thieme grid. The job of the pastor-teachers in the body is to prepare or equip the saints (Eph. 4:12). This means that the individual believer should be trained so that he can be self-sustaining both in the spiritual combat of life and in his ministry to the rest of the body. Thieme, on the other hand, discourages personal Bible study22 and ridicules anyone who attempts it unless he is a trained pastorteacher. 23 Seventh, an extensive emphasis on the doctrine of right pastor can produce a fear of leaving a local church. If Bible doctrine is defined in terms of that which one's pastor-teacher communicates, then leaving his authority, in the minds of many, is tantamount to leaving God or moving into reversionism. This is similar to the emotional slavery developed by the authoritative leaders of some of the newer, false cults. Eighth, we have already noticed that this extreme view of the pastor can result in a warped view of separation. Biblically, separation is not related to the issue of a pastor-teacher. Separation is for extreme immorality, a rebellious spirit, the causing of division in the body, and doctrinal heresy. Students of Thieme who break relationships with friends and/or family over the Thieme issue are totally out of line biblically.24 Ninth, this concept of the pastor can produce a false sense of superiority in a pastor-teacher. It can also engender an independence that hinders interaction with others in the body and that makes his own personal spiritual growth difficult in many areas.
Truthtesty
Part of Dr. Wall's dissertation:
At the heart of Thieme's doctrine of right pastor is a questionable concept of church government. However, even if Baptist polity is accepted, Thieme has added some elements to the Baptistic view of the pastor which are clearly contrary to the biblical pattern and which produce some dangerous spiritual byproducts. We will examine Thieme's three basic distinctive concepts first; then we will list a series of dangerous implications of such a doctrine. Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 4:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person. Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."
Third, he gives a false impression as to the believer's personal responsibility relative to testing the reliability of teachers and relative to his own personal study. For Thieme, once one joins a church fellowship, he is to unquestioningly respond to the pastor's authoritative teaching and rely on this pastor to do his study for him. This contradicts the biblical example of the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and the clear exhortations to test the doctrine of teachers (I Cor. 12:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; Gal. 1: 6-1 0). It also contradicts the intent of the gift of pastor-teacher. According to Ephesians 4, it along with the gift of evangelist and the temporary gifts of apostle and prophet were primarily given to the church to prepare or equip the saints to minister and edify the body of Christ. It would seem strange indeed to think of one's being equipped to minister as a self-sustaining, contributing unit in the body of Christ, and yet unable to be selfsustaining in his own personal study of Scripture....
Sixth, as much as Thieme emphasizes the importance of growing spiritually, the application of the doctrine of right pastor actually has a retarding effect on growth. With the dependency upon one's right pastor, one is moved a step beyond "milk," but he isn't taught how to carve the meat and to chew it up. Students of Thieme who consistently apply the doctrine of right pastor easily get hooked on a "bottle of strained meat," that is, doctrine that has gone through the Thieme grid. The job of the pastor-teachers in the body is to prepare or equip the saints (Eph. 4:12). This means that the individual believer should be trained so that he can be self-sustaining both in the spiritual combat of life and in his ministry to the rest of the body. Thieme, on the other hand, discourages personal Bible study22 and ridicules anyone who attempts it unless he is a trained pastorteacher. 23 Seventh, an extensive emphasis on the doctrine of right pastor can produce a fear of leaving a local church. If Bible doctrine is defined in terms of that which one's pastor-teacher communicates, then leaving his authority, in the minds of many, is tantamount to leaving God or moving into reversionism. This is similar to the emotional slavery developed by the authoritative leaders of some of the newer, false cults. Eighth, we have already noticed that this extreme view of the pastor can result in a warped view of separation. Biblically, separation is not related to the issue of a pastor-teacher. Separation is for extreme immorality, a rebellious spirit, the causing of division in the body, and doctrinal heresy. Students of Thieme who break relationships with friends and/or family over the Thieme issue are totally out of line biblically.24 Ninth, this concept of the pastor can produce a false sense of superiority in a pastor-teacher. It can also engender an independence that hinders interaction with others in the body and that makes his own personal spiritual growth difficult in many areas.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 24, 2007 12:01AM
To the Forum:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 3, Page 242,243: ...At the moment of regeneration, the believer, being born of God and therefore the legitimate offspring of God, is advanced in relationship and responsibility to the position of an adult son. All childhood and adolescent years, which are normal in human experience, are excluded in spiritual sonship and the newly born believer is at once in possession of freedom from tutors and governors—who symbolize the law principle—and is responsible to live the fullorbed spiritual life of an adult son in the Father’s household. No period of irresponsible childhood is recognized. There is no body of Scripture which undertakes to direct the conduct of beginners in the Christian life as in distinction to those who are mature. Whatever God says to the old and established saint, He says to every believer—including those most recently regenerated. There should be no misunderstanding respecting the “babe in Christ,” mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:1, who is a babe because of carnality and not because of immaturity of years in the Christian life. In human experience legitimate birth and adoption never combine in the same person. There is no occasion for a father to adopt his own child. In the realm of divine adoption, every child born of God is adopted at the moment he is born. He is placed before God as a mature, responsible son.
Truthtesty
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 3, Page 242,243: ...At the moment of regeneration, the believer, being born of God and therefore the legitimate offspring of God, is advanced in relationship and responsibility to the position of an adult son. All childhood and adolescent years, which are normal in human experience, are excluded in spiritual sonship and the newly born believer is at once in possession of freedom from tutors and governors—who symbolize the law principle—and is responsible to live the fullorbed spiritual life of an adult son in the Father’s household. No period of irresponsible childhood is recognized. There is no body of Scripture which undertakes to direct the conduct of beginners in the Christian life as in distinction to those who are mature. Whatever God says to the old and established saint, He says to every believer—including those most recently regenerated. There should be no misunderstanding respecting the “babe in Christ,” mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:1, who is a babe because of carnality and not because of immaturity of years in the Christian life. In human experience legitimate birth and adoption never combine in the same person. There is no occasion for a father to adopt his own child. In the realm of divine adoption, every child born of God is adopted at the moment he is born. He is placed before God as a mature, responsible son.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 27, 2007 11:58AM
To the Forum:
Thieme quotes
a. This means that no believer can read the Bible and attain spiritual maturity. The Bible is our textbook, but the gift of pastor teacher is designed to communicate the specifics of the mystery doctrine that cause spiritual growth. Doctrine must be learned under authority, and that authority is vested in the spiritual gift of pastor teacher.
b. No believer can read the Bible daily for himself and discover and learn the mystery doctrine for the Church Age, and understand the mechanics of the protocol plan of God. It must be taught through authority. Authority is always the key to teaching.
”
“ He must personally grow spiritually by his own personal study of the Word of God. No pastor can grow apart from personal study. He is the only one who can grow by personal study, it is connected with his spiritual gift. The congregation cannot grow by personal study, it can only grow by being under authority.
[thiemite.blogspot.com]
Truthtesty: In direct contradiction to Thieme, Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol 1 page 14
b. TRUE MYSTICISM. True Mysticism contends that all believers are indwelt by the Spirit and thus are in a position to be enlightened directly by Him, but that there is one complete revelation given, and that the illuminating work of the Spirit will be confined to the unveiling of the Scriptures to the mind and heart. False mysticism ignores the statement found in Jude 1:3 that there is a faith or system of belief “once delivered unto the saints,” and that when the Spirit is promised to “guide into all truth” (John 16:13), it is only the truth contained in the Scriptures (cf. 1Cor. 2:9, 10). There is a unique knowledge of the mysteries or sacred secrets of God accorded to those who are taught by the Spirit of God, but these sacred secrets are already contained in the text of the Bible.
Truthtesty:
This post on Chafer taken together with my previous direct previous Chafer post "Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 3, Page 242,243", show Thieme who claimed to "follow Dr. Chafer pretty closely" is in reality 180 degrees in direct opposition. The individual is capable of personal study. As far as maturity is concerned the believer is "At the moment of regeneration, the believer, being born of God and therefore the legitimate offspring of God, is advanced in relationship and responsibility to the position of an adult son"
The discerned cult implications are clear. Thieme creates out of his own imagination: the illusionary sole authority of 1 pastor/ 1 congregation and the "rat wheel" of works spirituality based on submission to that one pastor by the believer, day after day. There is no need for the apprehensive druggy fix of "I just have to listen to another tape". Adult maturity is already secured before God, and the "perfecting the saints" mission is apparently for teaching christians to be effective witnesses FOR witnessing, not for "super grace" nor "ultra super grace" nor "ultra ultra super grace" nor for "ultra ultra super duper duper grace".
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 1, Page ix There it is stated that the gifted men—apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, especially the pastors and teachers—are appointed to the task of “perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry”; that is, the ministry which is committed to the saints. The revelation here is not only of the fact that the saints have a witnessing service to perform, but also of the fact that they are to be equipped for this service by the gifted men whom God has placed over them as their leaders.
Truthtesty:
Notice Chafer says "men" not one "man". Per Dr. Wall's dissertation: "One thing is clear, the Scriptures do not single out one person with a particular gift and set him over a local body as an absolute ruler." "...This is consistent with the rest of Scripture. According to Acts 20:28, compared with Acts 20:17, the elders (presbuteroi) are the same as the overseers or bishops (episkopoi), and this group of men is exhorted by Paul to shepherd or pastor (poimainein) the flock of God. This position of pastoring overseer-elder is referred to in the plural both in verse 17 and in verse 28. When Paul addresses these men at Philippi, he refers to them in the plural (Phil. 1: 1). Only when referred to generically is this position ever referred to in the singular (I Tim. 3:1, 2).
Truthtesty
Thieme quotes
a. This means that no believer can read the Bible and attain spiritual maturity. The Bible is our textbook, but the gift of pastor teacher is designed to communicate the specifics of the mystery doctrine that cause spiritual growth. Doctrine must be learned under authority, and that authority is vested in the spiritual gift of pastor teacher.
b. No believer can read the Bible daily for himself and discover and learn the mystery doctrine for the Church Age, and understand the mechanics of the protocol plan of God. It must be taught through authority. Authority is always the key to teaching.
”
“ He must personally grow spiritually by his own personal study of the Word of God. No pastor can grow apart from personal study. He is the only one who can grow by personal study, it is connected with his spiritual gift. The congregation cannot grow by personal study, it can only grow by being under authority.
[thiemite.blogspot.com]
Truthtesty: In direct contradiction to Thieme, Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol 1 page 14
b. TRUE MYSTICISM. True Mysticism contends that all believers are indwelt by the Spirit and thus are in a position to be enlightened directly by Him, but that there is one complete revelation given, and that the illuminating work of the Spirit will be confined to the unveiling of the Scriptures to the mind and heart. False mysticism ignores the statement found in Jude 1:3 that there is a faith or system of belief “once delivered unto the saints,” and that when the Spirit is promised to “guide into all truth” (John 16:13), it is only the truth contained in the Scriptures (cf. 1Cor. 2:9, 10). There is a unique knowledge of the mysteries or sacred secrets of God accorded to those who are taught by the Spirit of God, but these sacred secrets are already contained in the text of the Bible.
Truthtesty:
This post on Chafer taken together with my previous direct previous Chafer post "Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 3, Page 242,243", show Thieme who claimed to "follow Dr. Chafer pretty closely" is in reality 180 degrees in direct opposition. The individual is capable of personal study. As far as maturity is concerned the believer is "At the moment of regeneration, the believer, being born of God and therefore the legitimate offspring of God, is advanced in relationship and responsibility to the position of an adult son"
The discerned cult implications are clear. Thieme creates out of his own imagination: the illusionary sole authority of 1 pastor/ 1 congregation and the "rat wheel" of works spirituality based on submission to that one pastor by the believer, day after day. There is no need for the apprehensive druggy fix of "I just have to listen to another tape". Adult maturity is already secured before God, and the "perfecting the saints" mission is apparently for teaching christians to be effective witnesses FOR witnessing, not for "super grace" nor "ultra super grace" nor "ultra ultra super grace" nor for "ultra ultra super duper duper grace".
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 1, Page ix There it is stated that the gifted men—apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, especially the pastors and teachers—are appointed to the task of “perfecting the saints for the work of the ministry”; that is, the ministry which is committed to the saints. The revelation here is not only of the fact that the saints have a witnessing service to perform, but also of the fact that they are to be equipped for this service by the gifted men whom God has placed over them as their leaders.
Truthtesty:
Notice Chafer says "men" not one "man". Per Dr. Wall's dissertation: "One thing is clear, the Scriptures do not single out one person with a particular gift and set him over a local body as an absolute ruler." "...This is consistent with the rest of Scripture. According to Acts 20:28, compared with Acts 20:17, the elders (presbuteroi) are the same as the overseers or bishops (episkopoi), and this group of men is exhorted by Paul to shepherd or pastor (poimainein) the flock of God. This position of pastoring overseer-elder is referred to in the plural both in verse 17 and in verse 28. When Paul addresses these men at Philippi, he refers to them in the plural (Phil. 1: 1). Only when referred to generically is this position ever referred to in the singular (I Tim. 3:1, 2).
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 28, 2007 09:59AM
To the Forum:
dogmatic [www.m-w.com]
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 3, Page 313 It has long been recognized that the man who is least qualified to speak with authority will be, very often, the most dogmatic.
"False Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr." Rev. Walters, edited by Dr. D. A. Waite.: Thieme Makes Many Other Statements Without Scriptural Proof. This apparently seems to be a favorite stratagem of Thieme used in many of his tapes and booklets--he speaks POMPOUSLY and DOGMATICALLY, as an authority, on many things where he is often WRONG or indulging in pure FANCIFUL SPECULATION! But even more regrettable and tragic is that his “learned assumptions and dogmatic pronouncements” are being gullibly accepted by his disciples, who apparently do not have the Scriptural background and/or ability to question their master--being willing to accept in blind faith whatever he tells them, without doing any Scriptural or “Berean” (Acts 17:11) investigating to determine whether he is right or not. Yet Scripture itself tells us that precisely this is what they OUGHT to do (Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:5, etc.).
(you can "gift purchase" this booklet from the Bible for Today website at [www.biblefortoday.org] search under "Walter, Rev. Robert")
What's Wrong with the Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr.? by Dr. Stewart Custer: Many of the statements that Mr. Thieme makes can be classified only as miscellaneous odd ideas. For most of them there is no support at all-except Mr. Thieme's dogmatic assertion.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: The author (Dr. Wall) as a young man had the enlightening experience of preaching a message based on one of Thieme's books, assuming that everything in the book that was stated so dogmatically could be substantiated from the Scriptures, only to discover that a certain teaching, though it was an interesting speculation, just was not in the Bible.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: One studying under Thieme soon finds himself so influenced by his authoritative, dogmatic manner that he is reluctant to study the Scriptures for himself; and when he reads the Bible, he is prone to sift the clear scriptural teachings through Thieme's doctrinal grid.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: A man has a right to his personal opinions, but a teacher of the truth of God, especially one as authoritative as Thieme, does a disservice to the Scriptures by dogmatically communicating his personal opinions alongside the revelation of God.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: Since his exegetical basis is so weak, Thieme should clarify regularly the fact that much of his terminology is the product of teaching technique and not exegesis, especially in view of his dogmatic insertion of his coined terms into his "corrected translations" of Scripture.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: 21 For example, Thieme's personal prejudices against blacks (described as “melanoderms”) and Chicanos comes out dogmatically in his teaching. Note magnetic tape reproductions of messages preached at Berachah Church: "Philippians 4:4," 22 February 1976; "Genesis 14:10," 21 September 1976; "Genesis 15:5," 8 October 1976; "Genesis 15:6," 10 October 1976.
dogmatic [www.m-w.com]
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 3, Page 313 It has long been recognized that the man who is least qualified to speak with authority will be, very often, the most dogmatic.
Truthtesty
dogmatic [www.m-w.com]
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 3, Page 313 It has long been recognized that the man who is least qualified to speak with authority will be, very often, the most dogmatic.
"False Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr." Rev. Walters, edited by Dr. D. A. Waite.: Thieme Makes Many Other Statements Without Scriptural Proof. This apparently seems to be a favorite stratagem of Thieme used in many of his tapes and booklets--he speaks POMPOUSLY and DOGMATICALLY, as an authority, on many things where he is often WRONG or indulging in pure FANCIFUL SPECULATION! But even more regrettable and tragic is that his “learned assumptions and dogmatic pronouncements” are being gullibly accepted by his disciples, who apparently do not have the Scriptural background and/or ability to question their master--being willing to accept in blind faith whatever he tells them, without doing any Scriptural or “Berean” (Acts 17:11) investigating to determine whether he is right or not. Yet Scripture itself tells us that precisely this is what they OUGHT to do (Acts 17:11; 1 John 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:5, etc.).
(you can "gift purchase" this booklet from the Bible for Today website at [www.biblefortoday.org] search under "Walter, Rev. Robert")
What's Wrong with the Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr.? by Dr. Stewart Custer: Many of the statements that Mr. Thieme makes can be classified only as miscellaneous odd ideas. For most of them there is no support at all-except Mr. Thieme's dogmatic assertion.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: The author (Dr. Wall) as a young man had the enlightening experience of preaching a message based on one of Thieme's books, assuming that everything in the book that was stated so dogmatically could be substantiated from the Scriptures, only to discover that a certain teaching, though it was an interesting speculation, just was not in the Bible.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: One studying under Thieme soon finds himself so influenced by his authoritative, dogmatic manner that he is reluctant to study the Scriptures for himself; and when he reads the Bible, he is prone to sift the clear scriptural teachings through Thieme's doctrinal grid.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: A man has a right to his personal opinions, but a teacher of the truth of God, especially one as authoritative as Thieme, does a disservice to the Scriptures by dogmatically communicating his personal opinions alongside the revelation of God.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: Since his exegetical basis is so weak, Thieme should clarify regularly the fact that much of his terminology is the product of teaching technique and not exegesis, especially in view of his dogmatic insertion of his coined terms into his "corrected translations" of Scripture.
Dr. Wall's dissertation: 21 For example, Thieme's personal prejudices against blacks (described as “melanoderms”) and Chicanos comes out dogmatically in his teaching. Note magnetic tape reproductions of messages preached at Berachah Church: "Philippians 4:4," 22 February 1976; "Genesis 14:10," 21 September 1976; "Genesis 15:5," 8 October 1976; "Genesis 15:6," 10 October 1976.
dogmatic [www.m-w.com]
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 3, Page 313 It has long been recognized that the man who is least qualified to speak with authority will be, very often, the most dogmatic.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 28, 2007 10:11AM
To the Forum:
dogmatic [www.m-w.com]
synonyms see dictatorial [www.m-w.com]
dictatorial
1 a: of, relating to, or befitting a dictator ...
Truthtesty
dogmatic [www.m-w.com]
synonyms see dictatorial [www.m-w.com]
dictatorial
1 a: of, relating to, or befitting a dictator ...
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 29, 2007 07:39AM
To the Forum:
Dr. Wall's dissertation:
First, Thieme too readily forces his term on the Scripture. He claims that his definition of Bible doctrine is equivalent to the biblical terms: truth, wisdom, and salt. By so doing, he reduces too much to one term. Second, by linking Bible doctrine to an authoritative pastor-teacher, he has produced a dangerous cycle of increasing dominance of one man over a congregation, 14 not unlike papal authority. In the Roman Church, dogma supports papal authority to interpret the Bible. The pope interprets the Bible to support the dogma of his authority. In the same way, Thieme's doctrine of Bible doctrine supports his pastoral authority to be the sole and final authority for Bible interpretation for his congregation. As such he continually emphasizes his view of Bible doctrine which in turn reinforces his authority.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 7, Page 35: The value to the student of such a declaration may not be questioned, for, regardless of his own convictions and however they were formed, he should know precisely what others believe who hold different views, else how can he be assured that he is justified in the position he defends? A man is on weak ground when he speaks vehemently and dogmatically respecting his own belief and yet does not know or understand what, in exact terms, his opponent believes. That an individual after many years of investigation should come to the point of personal convictions on such a divisive theme as this needs no apology.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 7, Page 38: Truth, then, must be established by more than bald, dogmatic, erroneous human assertions.
Truthtesty
Dr. Wall's dissertation:
First, Thieme too readily forces his term on the Scripture. He claims that his definition of Bible doctrine is equivalent to the biblical terms: truth, wisdom, and salt. By so doing, he reduces too much to one term. Second, by linking Bible doctrine to an authoritative pastor-teacher, he has produced a dangerous cycle of increasing dominance of one man over a congregation, 14 not unlike papal authority. In the Roman Church, dogma supports papal authority to interpret the Bible. The pope interprets the Bible to support the dogma of his authority. In the same way, Thieme's doctrine of Bible doctrine supports his pastoral authority to be the sole and final authority for Bible interpretation for his congregation. As such he continually emphasizes his view of Bible doctrine which in turn reinforces his authority.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 7, Page 35: The value to the student of such a declaration may not be questioned, for, regardless of his own convictions and however they were formed, he should know precisely what others believe who hold different views, else how can he be assured that he is justified in the position he defends? A man is on weak ground when he speaks vehemently and dogmatically respecting his own belief and yet does not know or understand what, in exact terms, his opponent believes. That an individual after many years of investigation should come to the point of personal convictions on such a divisive theme as this needs no apology.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 7, Page 38: Truth, then, must be established by more than bald, dogmatic, erroneous human assertions.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 30, 2007 12:46AM
To the Forum:
Quotes from: "Neshamah: Is there life in the womb?
Analysis of the Teaching of R.B. Thieme on the Origin of Life "
A dissertation submitted by TODD RUSSELL CAMPO TRINITY THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY in partial fulfillment of the requirement for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in THEOLOGY.
This type of teaching may seem unorthodox or even illogical to some, but his teaching style and dogma are very serious. Many thousands have accepted this teaching. This is why the need for a scholarly, comprehensive evaluation of this subject is of utmost importance.
But Thieme's position offers no valid biblical evidence. Since the
Scriptures have little to say on this, one should not speculate to the degree that Thieme does, and then dogmatically assert that speculation as fact.
There is no getting around what the text says. As a final sidenote, it needs to be pointed out that when commenting on this passage, Thieme should not use the words "his," "baby," or even "John the Baptist." Thieme states that it is improper to give pronouns or proper names to a fetus since the fetus is not yet a human being. This point he dogmatically makes, though repeatedly violates.
Thieme makes several dogmatic assertions concerning the nature of life in the
womb. While he usually qualifies his comments by stating his scientific information is
not comprehensive, he nonetheless asserts several alleged scientific facts.
We are told by Thieme that we need to "carefully consider what is taught in the pulpit . . . [then make] our own decision before the Lord." This almost sounds like truth is obtained via the worldview of private subjectivism!
What is so ironic and hypocritical of Thieme is that he is the first one to "pastor,"
"advise," or "counsel" in so many other areas. He says he cannot advise on whether to
abort, but he certainly "advises" on military service, war, homosexuality, gun control,
welfare, and a host of other issues. The biggest hypocrisy of Thieme's dogma is how one should not judge and criticize those who favor abortion, and yet in the same breath, he judges, condemns, criticizes, and ridicules those who oppose abortion. And his criticismis thoroughly divisive among the body of Christ.
Imagine saying that Christians who believe life begins at conception have the "biggest"
theological problem. That they are too dumb, too emotional and will resort to living a
life of Christian moral degeneracy. What about all of the Christian scholars mentioned in
this dissertation? Did Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Hodge, or Lewis Sperry
Chafer live a life of Christian moral degeneracy? Are Dr. Gleason Archer, Dr. Billy
Graham, or Dr. Charles Stanley, living a life of Christian moral degeneracy? Thieme's
words imply that they are.
Beside the quotations already cited, Thieme continues to make cutting, dogmatic, and divisive statements. He judges Christian's motives: ....
It would appear from this mere sampling of contentious quotes that Thieme is the very kind of individual he so adamantly despises. As he condemns others, he is on an all out attack against those who condemn. Even if those who honestly believe that there is human life in the womb are wrong, Thieme violates passage after passage that tells us our communication should be done in love and compassion, and with grace and salt.
It is under the illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit, not the dogma of human framework, that one is led to the truth. Examining the Scriptures daily and with great eagerness, let one be shown to be a more noble-minded Berean.
Truthtesty
Quotes from: "Neshamah: Is there life in the womb?
Analysis of the Teaching of R.B. Thieme on the Origin of Life "
A dissertation submitted by TODD RUSSELL CAMPO TRINITY THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY in partial fulfillment of the requirement for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in THEOLOGY.
This type of teaching may seem unorthodox or even illogical to some, but his teaching style and dogma are very serious. Many thousands have accepted this teaching. This is why the need for a scholarly, comprehensive evaluation of this subject is of utmost importance.
But Thieme's position offers no valid biblical evidence. Since the
Scriptures have little to say on this, one should not speculate to the degree that Thieme does, and then dogmatically assert that speculation as fact.
There is no getting around what the text says. As a final sidenote, it needs to be pointed out that when commenting on this passage, Thieme should not use the words "his," "baby," or even "John the Baptist." Thieme states that it is improper to give pronouns or proper names to a fetus since the fetus is not yet a human being. This point he dogmatically makes, though repeatedly violates.
Thieme makes several dogmatic assertions concerning the nature of life in the
womb. While he usually qualifies his comments by stating his scientific information is
not comprehensive, he nonetheless asserts several alleged scientific facts.
We are told by Thieme that we need to "carefully consider what is taught in the pulpit . . . [then make] our own decision before the Lord." This almost sounds like truth is obtained via the worldview of private subjectivism!
What is so ironic and hypocritical of Thieme is that he is the first one to "pastor,"
"advise," or "counsel" in so many other areas. He says he cannot advise on whether to
abort, but he certainly "advises" on military service, war, homosexuality, gun control,
welfare, and a host of other issues. The biggest hypocrisy of Thieme's dogma is how one should not judge and criticize those who favor abortion, and yet in the same breath, he judges, condemns, criticizes, and ridicules those who oppose abortion. And his criticismis thoroughly divisive among the body of Christ.
Imagine saying that Christians who believe life begins at conception have the "biggest"
theological problem. That they are too dumb, too emotional and will resort to living a
life of Christian moral degeneracy. What about all of the Christian scholars mentioned in
this dissertation? Did Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Hodge, or Lewis Sperry
Chafer live a life of Christian moral degeneracy? Are Dr. Gleason Archer, Dr. Billy
Graham, or Dr. Charles Stanley, living a life of Christian moral degeneracy? Thieme's
words imply that they are.
Beside the quotations already cited, Thieme continues to make cutting, dogmatic, and divisive statements. He judges Christian's motives: ....
It would appear from this mere sampling of contentious quotes that Thieme is the very kind of individual he so adamantly despises. As he condemns others, he is on an all out attack against those who condemn. Even if those who honestly believe that there is human life in the womb are wrong, Thieme violates passage after passage that tells us our communication should be done in love and compassion, and with grace and salt.
It is under the illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit, not the dogma of human framework, that one is led to the truth. Examining the Scriptures daily and with great eagerness, let one be shown to be a more noble-minded Berean.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: December 30, 2007 01:00AM
To the Forum:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 1, Page vi:
No student of the Scriptures should be satisfied to traffic only in the results of the study of other men. The field is inexhaustible and its treasures ever new. No worthy astronomer limits his attention to the findings of other men, but is himself ever gazing into the heavens both to verify and to discover; and no worthy theologian will be satisfied alone with the result of the research of other theologians, but will himself be ever searching the Scriptures. However, a full-rounded introduction is needed and a method of study must be established if either the astronomer or the theologian expects to continue with ever increasing efficiency.
Truthtesty
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 1, Page vi:
No student of the Scriptures should be satisfied to traffic only in the results of the study of other men. The field is inexhaustible and its treasures ever new. No worthy astronomer limits his attention to the findings of other men, but is himself ever gazing into the heavens both to verify and to discover; and no worthy theologian will be satisfied alone with the result of the research of other theologians, but will himself be ever searching the Scriptures. However, a full-rounded introduction is needed and a method of study must be established if either the astronomer or the theologian expects to continue with ever increasing efficiency.
Truthtesty
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